Let's talk Double-Esword

[Lumbermancer]

It blocks tasers.

It blocks lasers.

It blocks projectiles.

It blocks stun baton now apparently, which was only hard counter.

What's left, slipping? Let's hope murderboner ain't wearing noslips. Body throw? Let's hope ping-pong is on our side. It's a dumb weapon propagating dumb cancerous playstyle. Remove.

[cedarbridge]

Agree +1

[Reece]

No block spears. Unga the twat.

[Steelpoint]

In the past the main balancing point of Duel Eswords was the fact that at least a Stun Baton could bypass the Duel Esword, that and the Detective's Revolver.

While I'm no 'master of balance' but I have always thought that making Eswords block even Stun Batons is too much, say what you will about Tasers but Stun Batons vs Duel Esword is a very difficult affair and is very dangerous for both parties.

[Arianya]

Plus limb removal RNG gives a fair chance the that esworder will cut off your baton holding hand in his first strike.

[Lumbermancer]

Don't forget the outright knock down.

[Steelpoint]

I just tested and even shooting the user with a ballistic projectile seems to, on the balance of probabilities, usually result in the sword blocking the hit.

I used a Riot Shotgun and a entire clip from the Det's Revolver. All pellets but two were defelected by a single shell, and only one of the six bullets from the Dets revolver were not blocked.

So gg for that. You better hope McTraitor is not wearing any face protection or else you're in really big trouble, not even the Dragnet does anything.

[InsaneHyena]

> Giant "I'M VALID" sign that makes you the enemy of the entire crew
I've never seen any succesful traitor use double-esword. Every time Smells chops off legs, he ends up dead and borged in ten minutes.

In other words, git gud.

[Screemonster]

> radio cries out about DEsword
> make pneumatic cannon
> load pneumatic cannon with a fuckton of glass or whatever you feel like adding

although really the fact that it got a buff even _after_ the dismemberment thing which gave it an even huger accidental buff while everything else is met with cries of "nerf" every time someone gets dunked by it is baffling

[Lumbermancer]

> radio cries out about DEsword
> make pneumatic cannon
> load pneumatic cannon with a fuckton of glass or whatever you feel like adding

Things that never happened for 1500.

[Reece]

> radio cries out about DEsword
> make pneumatic cannon
> load pneumatic cannon with a fuckton of glass or whatever you feel like adding

Things that never happened for 1500.

I've had glass ohysically thrown at me by atmos techs more than this has happened.

[Lumbermancer]

Moving the goalpost.

[Arianya]

Tbh nerf its melee blockchance to being equal with the captain's saber.

I want sick swordfights, is that so much to ask for?

[ShadowDimentio]

>It's a DUAL ESWORD IS 2 GUD thread again

Get good you filthy casuals, don't approach the bad man with the big glowing swords roaming the halls.

[Lumbermancer]

Jerome Johnson blocks the stunbaton with the double-bladed energy sword (Wielded)!

[ShadowDimentio]

Throw bolas at him and throw floor tiles until he dies.

There are limitless ways to dunk a dual esworder that aren't I BATON THE PROBLEM or I TAZE THE PROBLEM

[Steelpoint]

The most basic and difficult to use Security item should have an effect on a Double-Esword.

The Stun Baton is a very difficult to employ weapon, and what the Esword does is pretty much shut down every single piece of Security equipment on offer.

You may say to use floor tiles or similar make shift weapons, but I believe that argument simply further exacerbates the situation where you question why you're playing a Security Officer when none of you're equipment is viable against a antagonist yet some buffoon Assistant is more suited and equipped to deal with said Antagonist.

[Lumbermancer]

Throw bolas at him and throw floor tiles until he dies.

There are limitless ways to dunk a dual esworder that aren't I BATON THE PROBLEM or I TAZE THE PROBLEM

>there's a person killing everyone on the escape shuttle
>pls wait let me go out find crowbar and gather some floor tiles

Can we stick to real world scenarios and not a number comparison in laboratory environment?

[Gun Hog]

It only takes ONE Detective bullet making it through his defenses to end that dual saber user's round. Just one. Even with all of the buffs, it is still a MASSIVE risk. Murderbone is something I enjoy watching, and I would rather die in a murderbone or to the singulo than be one of only three people secretly killed in a round. You cannot solve all your problems with an egun and a baton.

[Lumbermancer]

It only takes ONE Detective bullet making it through his defenses to end that dual saber user's round. Just one.

Except double esword blocks all projectiles.

[Steelpoint]

It only takes ONE Detective bullet making it through his defenses to end that dual saber user's round. Just one. Even with all of the buffs, it is still a MASSIVE risk. Murderbone is something I enjoy watching, and I would rather die in a murderbone or to the singulo than be one of only three people secretly killed in a round. You cannot solve all your problems with an egun and a baton.

The Detective's Bullet still has to hit the target, and from my testing it feels like there's a 80%+ chance of a outright block/deflection with any ballistic weapon.

The Baton should be the equaliser, a Officer should not be utterly helpless against someone running around with a Duel Esword or even a Esword, even if their only chance is engaging in close combat against someone who is kitted out to fight in close combat.

Also only the Detective has access to his own revolver, and we're assuming the Detective spawned into the round and not that the Traitor themselves stole the Revolver already.

[Lumbermancer]

The Baton should be the equaliser

It always was. Ability for swords to block a baton must a be a recent addition, but don't quote me on it.

[Bombadil]

> radio cries out about DEsword
> make pneumatic cannon
> load pneumatic cannon with a fuckton of glass or whatever you feel like adding

Things that never happened for 1500.

I've done it. The glass embedded and sec was able to stop the doublesworder due to massive slow down...

after i got my legs cut off

[Whoisthere]

I for one look forward to dunking more double esword losers with bolas and spears.

Desword was buffed right as it is an amazingly ineffective and shitty item if you compare it to, say, revolver, and it is countered by sec default loadout (flashbang, pep spray).

[D&B]

Hurr Durr I'm too retarded to use a flashbang/pepper spray pls nerfe

[Steelpoint]

Hurr Durr I'm too retarded to use a flashbang/pepper spray pls nerfe

You're assuming the user is not wearing a item that resists these attacks.

Pepper Spray is my first port of call but any Traitor worth their crystals is wearing something to block them.

[Digdugxx]

shotgun, revolver or bolas counter d-esword, they already took away leg stun, don't make it any worse

[Whoisthere]

You're assuming the user is not wearing a item that resists these attacks.

Pepper Spray is my first port of call but any Traitor worth their crystals is wearing something to block them.

Well if the dude took 3 minutes to scour maint for sunglasses maybe our sec dude can spend 3 minutes making bolas and spears.

[Steelpoint]

shotgun, revolver or bolas counter d-esword, they already took away leg stun, don't make it any worse

I tested these counters in game, here's the result

Shotgun
Methodology = Employed usage of standard issue security Riot Shotgun, shotgun is loaded with six rubber shot shells. Shotgun is fired within two tile distance of target, all pellets hit their mark. Attacks are aimed for the chest.

Shot 1 - 5 Blocks, 1 Hit
Shot 2 - 5 Blocks, 1 Hit
Shot 3 - 4 Blocks, 2 Hits
Shot 4 - 5 Blocks, 1 Hit
Shot 5 - 2 Blocks, 4 Hits (TARGET STUNNED)

Conclusion - From this one test, it took five consecutive attacks from point blank range to stun the Esword wielder. On average the majority, around 80%, of attacks were blocked. The Riot Shotgun is utterly ineffective in stopping a Duel Esword user as the weapons effective range is within melee strike range as well.

Revolver
Methodology = Employed usage of Detective's Revolver, revolver clip is fully loaded, round is fired within a distance of two tiles, attacks are aimed for the chest.

(SH X = Firing One Bullet)

Attempts

Spoiler:

Attempt 1
- SH 1 - Blocked
- SH 2 - HIT

Attempt 2
- SH 1 - Blocked
- SH 2 - Blocked
- SH 3 - HIT

Attempt 3
- SH 1 - Blocked
- SH 2 - Blocked
- SH 3 - Blocked
- SH 4 - Blocked
- SH 5 - Blocked
- SH 6 - Blocked

Conclusion - Unlike the Riot Shotgun, the Revolver is far more RNG based. Some times it may get through initally but other times a entire clip will render no effect on target. No attempt I made had the first shot connect but I must stress the RNG is far more prominent for the Revolver due to the individual revolver bullet being far more deadly than a individual Shotgun pellet.

Bola
Methodology = A hand crafted Bola is thrown onto the target at a range of two tiles.

Throw 1 - HIT
Throw 2 - Block
Throw 3 - Block
Throw 4 - Block
Throw 5 - Block

Conclusion - While if the Bola hits its effects are devestating, however from testing the Bola had a low chance to connect, with the majority of the time the Duel Esword user is able to successfully block the incoming Bola. Of note the DRAGNET bola is also 100% deflected.

-----------

Conclusion Overall - The three proposed counters to a Duel Esword fail to reliably stop the user, on average the user can expect only a 20% success rate when employ a Revolver and Bola, the Riot Shotgun is utterly unreliable however.

E: Final note, these testing conditions assume the sword user is stationary, in reality the target will be moving, further reducing the odds of a successful attack let alone the attack bypassing the sword block.

[D&B]

Syringe guns, banana cream pies, welder bomb, flamethrowers, spear embedding,

All of these are counters to it, bolas too.

[Steelpoint]

I can go through debunking the usefulness of every item in the game but that's not the point I'm making.

My point, the one I am pushing forward, is that I belive Security should have a single item that can hard counter a Duel-Energy Sword, and on the side the Energy Shield.

Right now they don't, I propose that the Stun Baton be the hard counter due to the skill needed to employ it and the disadvantage it renders onto the Officer who has to close the gap on someone with a powerful melee weapon, or a melee weapon/ranged weapon combo.

[onleavedontatme]

There are limitless ways to dunk a dual esworder that aren't I BATON THE PROBLEM or I TAZE THE PROBLEM

This

but also

It's a dumb weapon propagating dumb cancerous playstyle

It's really boring

[calzilla1]

>be suicidal assistant
>go over to dule sword shitter
>press 2
>click on him ONCE
>RNG says... its good!
>pocket sword and leg it
>leave the faggot to the masive mob that has formed

[PKPenguin321]

I think blockchance must have been changed fairly recently or something, it didn't used to block things like stunbatons. I'd change it right now if I knew how the code worked.

[Steelpoint]

I checked the code.

Duel Eswords have a 75% block rate with attacks that are not already 100% blocked.

Changing it is a simple case of changing a single line of code.

[PKPenguin321]

I checked the code.

Duel Eswords have a 75% block rate with attacks that are not already 100% blocked.

Changing it is a simple case of changing a single line of code.

Yeah, but that's pretty much fine, it's just that I don't want to change block chance, only the inability to be hit by melee weapons in general with blockchance.

Actually, forget I said anything. It's probably always been this way and I'm only just realizing it because >byond RNG

[Arianya]

If I'm reading this correct, that block chance is both for melee and ranged attacks. A single esword has 50% chance, a officer's sabre has 50% (but is flagged to not block projectiles). A Desword has 75% but reflects energy projectiles outright.

e: If you wanted to exempt melee attacks from the desword's blockchance you'd just need to do something like:

Code: Select all

/obj/item/weapon/twohanded/dualsaber/hit_reaction(mob/living/carbon/human/owner, attack_text, final_block_chance, damage, attack_type)
	if(attack_type == MELEE_ATTACK)
		final_block_chance = 0
return ..()

And you could probably refine it even further down if you just wanted it to be the case for stunbatons.

[Cobby]

I'm theorycrafting here but does pepperspray not act as a hardcounter to these people? I guess maybe if they buy the cham kit or happen to get glasses then it's over but hmmm

I know slips don't work because I buy them everytime i'm going to murderbone.

[Wyzack]

Glasses are pretty easy to get ahold of, there are a few pairs in maint, the chem goggles in the sci lobby on meta, and i dont know if these have the same eye protections but medbay has boxes of eyeglasses i think, as well as maybe ones in the clothesmate

[Steelpoint]

I'm theorycrafting here but does pepperspray not act as a hardcounter to these people? I guess maybe if they buy the cham kit or happen to get glasses then it's over but hmmm

I know slips don't work because I buy them everytime i'm going to murderbone.

The problem is that Pepperspray is blocked by anything that blocks a users eyes.

From sunglasses to gas masks.

I don't know the code but just covering you're eyes blocks most of the negative effects of pepperspray.

[Cobby]

I'm theorycrafting here but does pepperspray not act as a hardcounter to these people? I guess maybe if they buy the cham kit or happen to get glasses then it's over but hmmm

I know slips don't work because I buy them everytime i'm going to murderbone.

The problem is that Pepperspray is blocked by anything that blocks a users eyes.

From sunglasses to gas masks.

I don't know the code but just covering you're eyes blocks most of the negative effects of pepperspray.

security buff time :^)?

[D&B]

Pepper spray should be buffed so unless you're wearing internals and they're on, you don't get affected, aside from glasses.

I mean one of the uses for it irl is that it also inhibits normal breathing if you're unlucky enough

[cedarbridge]

Hurr Durr I'm too retarded to use a flashbang/pepper spray pls nerfe

how much of the station do you think has flashbangs?

[DemonFiren]

The only parts of the station that matter.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Bolas can be blocked

No they can't. If your bola hits the dude, even if he "blocks" it, he's still bola'd. Unless coderbus "fixed" that.

>Pepperspray can be protected against

Dual esword users are either not robust enough to prepare against this or robust enough to have prepared and you should have used a better option.

>Flashbangs are too rare

Haha yeah man we should balance antags around the average underequipped crewmember having the ability to easily dispatch them. Disarm is a thing that exists if you're stupid enough to run at the dual esworder without gear on hand to dunk them.

This argument makes me fucking mad. Antags are supposed to be extremely dangerous and the only people that are supposed to have gear competitive with theirs are the sec team (mostly just the HoS though) and the captain. This idea of it being "unfair" that a naked assistant stands no real chance against a well-geared antag currently going loud is retarded.

You have legs (unless they've been cut off by the esworder). Use them to flee from the big scary man with the glowy swords.

Get good you salty idiots.

[Wyzack]

That would actually be really cool. Someone do that

[John_Oxford]

>stun baton
>difficult to use

literally just carry two in both hands and if you get disarmed use the other one while he has to stand still to pick up the one he disarmed from you.

or you know just click the person once and win

[IcePacks]

get gud

[BeeSting12]

There isn't much to say really. If you can't defeat a dual esword murderboner then:

get gud

[Armhulen]

Throw the baton, 50 50 I think