/tg/Station 13

For the sake of fairness and representation, I've RESTARTED THE POLL after Cobby made a good point about one of the previous "Yes" options having two suggestions in it which should've been split (and now have been); that option was winning, but in truth it should've been two seperate "Yes" options in the first place. Please RECAST YOUR VOTE.

I didn't think that this would need a thread, but it's been brought to my attention that I should've made one immediately as soon as the PR went up, and with the way the PR is going...



These are the Medical HUDshades, an item I've figured out how to create after literally years of wanting them in. Yes, I could've made them before, but distractions meant that I never sat down and looked at the code properly (and figured out that it was so simple).

I feel that these are an appropriate addition. People disagree and agree. I'd like to know what the playerbase thinks.
(There was facetiousness here suggesting, in jest, that oranges was the sole reason this wasn't approved yet; it has been removed after causing offence.)

So I'm putting it up here. What do you think?

Youve been told that adding them just because was bad since it provided an unnecessary nerf to rev regarding conversion, CMO himself doesn't need it because he's a head, and ERT wouldn't need it either because they have flash protection with their hardsuit.

Honestly fuck off. You're not accepting valid reasons presented to you that explains why it would be a bad addition, now you're trying to rally forum goers because you can't buff your main role?

Fucking pitiful.

I just want to pop in and say "Just add it to the code!" is a major fallacy since virtually everything added to the code eventually becomes obtainable one way or another.

It's like the game dev equivalent to "C'mon baby just the tip"

D&B wrote:~

Wow. Hostile. I didn't expect that.

Okay, here's this - now that flashes have been buffed, the existing problem of the CMO being the litmus test for rev rounds will become even worse. I've observed it myself, from inside and outside, countless times - the first time I realise that there's a revolution on, I'm often already seeing the CMO get beaten to death moments into the round, and that cannot be fun for whoever landed that role.

There are no comparable role & gamemode combinations for this elsewhere. Does the RD get dunked that quickly? No, because their department is relatively secure - it can happen if the headrev spawns inside science, yes, but if they're outside they usually have bigger fish to fry in terms of recruiting (and getting at the easy-to-reach head in the easy-to-breach department), so they can survive for a little while. Do cultists swarm the chaplain? No, because it's a stealthy gamemode where conversion is slow and a mildly significant presence is needed before they start taking on targets. Do captains get jumped by nukesquads? Yeah... at least ten or fifteen minutes into the round, at the very least. And they have a gun.

Giving it to the CMO doesn't nerf the revs so much as let the CMO survive their flashes, which any rev will work around almost immediately anyway. The CMO could get SOMETHING to give him a little more passive survivability, and an ERT doesn't need to have their helmet up. I've seen the criticisms fielded, and I am under the impression that they're paper thin.

Again, I can look at security and see superfluous features sliding because someone wanted them. But I suggest and create something simple for medbay, something that I've wanted for some time, try to get some opinions from the playerbase, and some people shit not just one brick, but an entire oubliette. I remember similar freakouts for handheld crew monitors, defibs, the CMO's lone hardsuit, and Winter Coats.

I want to hear from the people on the forums who play the game (especially since it occured to me that many players aren't on Github, seeing these pulls). Maybe you don't, but that's fine.

Cheridan wrote:~

Now, y'see, D&B? Actual valid point.

Yes, I want the item added to the game proper. I'm quite attached to it, as you might have gathered; I found the original image where I sprited them the first time, and it was from 2012. I figured that starting by just adding them to the code and having the option for mapmakers to add them later would stop World War III, but it didn't seem to work.

Is there something that you could suggest for a minor feature addition like this to make it more palatable?

Fucking hell the rage generated by little blue sunglasses is hilarious.

Reece wrote:Fucking hell the rage generated by little blue sunglasses is hilarious.

I might've laughed at all this rage myself if I hadn't somehow generated it.

Cheridan just basically repeated what was told to you in the GitHub Convo. One of the reasons presented for its denial.

2. You're implying that the CMO is always the first head to die. I've seen captains that wander outside of the brig die too. I've seen CE not respond because the engineers killed them roundstart. To add assuming something dies first when there's no presented data that proves this is very fallacious.

3. You dying early when you have access to one of the most powerful items and department (chemistry) is lack of skill. Stop trying to clutch yourself with coding.

4. Please don't be so fucking stupid to think medbay and sec need equal changes when they have different purposes and objectives in game. As stupid as comparing science and engineering.

5. Saying "I want to hear from them playerbase" is a shitty excuse to use when you got told, by many different people in GitHub why it shouldn't be added. Even worse when you preface it in the forum's by saying the only reason it is getting denied is "because that oranges guys dislikes it."

6. This is a bitch move forum post. Don't complain about hostility when you try to pin your precious code being rejected on one person when that's just a bona fide lie.

They're just sunglasses with a medHUD. One pair of sunglasses for the CMO isn't exactly gamebreaking, they spawn in maint fairly often and the CMO gets a free medHUD implant anyway.

They're stylish flash protection for a head of staff (like the HoP, Captain, HoS and CE all get), they're not the second coming of the Antichrist.

D&B is making a mountain out of a molehill. Currently with the CMO getting a free roundstart medhud implant, they can get the functional equivalent to this item very quickly, especially considering sunglasses commonly spawn in the maint near medbay. The game balance impact of this item being added to the CMO would be low, and even adding it to security would just give them a nice side-grade to the roundstart sec-huds for the more EMT focused security officers.

For Christ's sake not all change should be responded to with "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CHANGE BAD" sometimes cool items can just be thrown into the mix and if they become a problem just remove them.

Dr_bee wrote: if they become a problem just remove them.

This is a fallacy because everything removed from this game is a hard fought battle with weeks and weeks of fallout

see securityborgs, parapens, parasting, stun gloves, security tasers etc etc.

D&B wrote:2. You're implying that the CMO is always the first head to die. I've seen captains that wander outside of the brig die too. I've seen CE not respond because the engineers killed them roundstart. To add assuming something dies first when there's no presented data that proves this is very fallacious. CMO dying first in rev is a long proud tradition and pretending it doesn't happen just means you need to leave mining more often

3. You dying early when you have access to one of the most powerful items and department (chemistry) is lack of skill. Stop trying to clutch yourself with coding. Excuse me, revs, mind not jumping me while I take a quick visit over to chem? Thanks.

5. Saying "I want to hear from them playerbase" is a shitty excuse to use when you got told, by many different people in GitHub why it shouldn't be added. Even worse when you preface it in the forum's by saying the only reason it is getting denied is "because that oranges guys dislikes it." Fuck everyone else because the git posters have spoken

If you're going to get this pissed over a pair of sunglasses I think you need to reevaluate your priorities.

I wish we could get medscanner prescription glasses.

beerobot wrote:

Dr_bee wrote: if they become a problem just remove them.

This is a fallacy because everything removed from this game is a hard fought battle with weeks and weeks of fallout

see securityborgs, parapens, parasting, stun gloves, security tasers etc etc.

all of those things had a huge effect on game balance, where as a set of sunglasses given to a head of staff role does not have a gigantic effect on game balance. If anything, port the sprite and put it in the clothing vendor for special snowflake memes.

> tying in admin spawn [centcomm] and roundstart given into one option.

Shame!

All I can see is repukan Flaming.
Keep it up folks.
On a serious note all this over blue sunglasses is silly.

Amusingly enough, one of the promises of sec huds being added was that officers would have to lose flash immunity to use them.

I say no, flashes are laughably weak these days as it is.

Only way I see this getting added is if it's put in the medical sec officer's locker, so they can help out too or hand them out if he's feeling generous.

CMO has his implant and can scour maint like a common greyshirt for a pair of sunglasses if he wants to look stylish, I'd rather avoid drawback-free flash protection being available so readily to a role that, in theory, shouldn't need sunglasses. HoP has sunglasses because his flasher can flash him too without them, Sec has theirs because of flashbangs, QM and Lawyer have theirs to make it slightly harder for revs to get a foothold in their department ("Slightly harder") due to them being fairly decisive (Weapons and sec radio access respectively) and the Cap gets his because all the high ranking administrative staff in Nanotrasen have sunglasses (see the CentCom Official).

D&B wrote:~

- I didn't imply that the CMO is always the first head to die. Just USUALLY the first, in many cases. I trust my own anecdotes from over the years more than others.

- Chemistry requires time to get your chemicals, your toxins etc. Time which a CMO doesn't have at the start of a rev round, usually. Unless, of course, they go straight to medbay to make toxins, like the "good ol' days" of rushing for chloral hydrate to put into your hypospray. We have a word for people who do that sort of thing - powergaming. And telling someone that they should powergame to counter a tricky gamemode starting position instead of adding an item to make it marginally, marginally better for them is deplorable.

- They DO have comparable needs - they need the equipment, the access, and the usability to heal people quickly, which in a dire situation they're going to struggle with even if they get the kind of buffs security enjoys. When security struggles with their guns, they spend one minute recharging them in any of the power stations on the map, and if people complain about their behaviour, said complainers get arrested; if medbay needs to restock, they need to go back to medbay and dip into the limited supply, which has probably been raided again by someone who decided that self-healing with patches is a better idea than overall healing with bicaridine in a sleeper, or they go to chemistry - which is 50/50 not manned this round, and may not even be producing medicines even if it is manned.

- It's fairly standard to seek feedback from the playerbase, really. I've still got HornyGranny's quote about seperating the server and the coderbase in my sig, and it still feels relevant; I'm coming at this problem as a player, and I really should've put it here in the first place. For not doing that, I apologise.

- I don't know why I bother being sarcastic or comically facetious on the internet. Someone always fails to read it that way.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I wish we could get medscanner prescription glasses.

That sounds neat. I wonder if I could figure out how to make those?

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:> tying in admin spawn [centcomm] and roundstart given into one option.

Shame!

You're right. I'll restart the poll with these options seperate.

Anonmare wrote:~

I'd be happy with that. Also probably the best counterpoint on why people have sunglasses. I still feel that the CMO is too squishy at the start of a round, though.

Remind me, do security officers assigned to a department start there?

Super Aggro Crag wrote:I wish we could get medscanner prescription glasses.

One of the sad ironies of spessman anatomy is the inability to wear glasses and goggles/etc at the same time. My snowflake aesthetics.

It's pretty clear you're just trying to buff your favorite department and it's kind of embarrassing
there's no actual good reason for these to exist, if there was they would have existed a looooooooong time ago

AnonymousNow wrote: I'd be happy with that. Also probably the best counterpoint on why people have sunglasses. I still feel that the CMO is too squishy at the start of a round, though.

Remind me, do security officers assigned to a department start there?

I think there's a landmark spawner but I am unsure if that is true of every map

Maybe make it a security buff and force one of the roundstart security officers to receive a security medical jumpsuit, light armor, and a shittier combat injector (maybe like a reloadable one that more or less just shoots epipens into the person)

You'll probally get less blowback from it, be sure to remove the medkits in the security lobby though. Security mains will have your back on it to.

Additionally, if you could PM me the code i'll gladly integrate it into any future security buffs.

Additionally #2, locking it behind RnD (similar to how all the other types of special glasses are) would be a good step to.

The problem was that shitty coderfags like cheridian and the citrusfag are fuck buddies with the people who made conversion modes, attempting to give -anyone- or -anything- a advantage over them is not allowed because muh seperation. Had you made it a security buff, even a minor one (like giving all department security officers a set of HUD/s relevant to their position. or simply just putting it on a table on top of the medkits in the brig, it would have probally been merged.

it's not because, as you so eloquently put it "am fuck buddies with the people who make conversion modes". It's because the conversion modes already exist, so that means changes that affect them have to be viewed with a careful eye to balance.

Since conversion modes rely so heavily on flashes and a failed flash can spell the difference between a successful rev and a failed one we are not keen on handing out flash protection to more of the crew than already have them.

Cheridan wrote:I just want to pop in and say "Just add it to the code!" is a major fallacy since virtually everything added to the code eventually becomes obtainable one way or another.

It's like the game dev equivalent to "C'mon baby just the tip"

Where is my veil render?


I want to summon nar nar as wiz again

beerobot wrote:it's not because, as you so eloquently put it "am fuck buddies with the people who make conversion modes". It's because the conversion modes already exist, so that means changes that affect them have to be viewed with a careful eye to balance.

Since conversion modes rely so heavily on flashes and a failed flash can spell the difference between a successful rev and a failed one we are not keen on handing out flash protection to more of the crew than already have them.

Pretty sure he mentioned directly giving them to the CMO.

Rev is the only game mode that uses flashes, and the CMO is a head.

See my point?

John_Oxford wrote:

beerobot wrote:it's not because, as you so eloquently put it "am fuck buddies with the people who make conversion modes". It's because the conversion modes already exist, so that means changes that affect them have to be viewed with a careful eye to balance.

Since conversion modes rely so heavily on flashes and a failed flash can spell the difference between a successful rev and a failed one we are not keen on handing out flash protection to more of the crew than already have them.

Pretty sure he mentioned directly giving them to the CMO.

Rev is the only game mode that uses flashes, and the CMO is a head.

See my point?

its like people forgot that security has flashes.

not really, just they're not a factor in security.

MrStonedOne wrote:its like people forgot that security has flashes.

There's a reason that flashes got back their weaken effect and why borgs are considered so weak now that most sec doesn't even bother taking flashes anymore.

Don't worry I'll slowly change combat before people realize it's too late.

D&B wrote:Youve been told that adding them just because was bad since it provided an unnecessary nerf to rev regarding conversion, CMO himself doesn't need it because he's a head, and ERT wouldn't need it either because they have flash protection with their hardsuit.

Honestly fuck off. You're not accepting valid reasons presented to you that explains why it would be a bad addition, now you're trying to rally forum goers because you can't buff your main role?

Fucking pitiful.

So he posts something to the forum asking for feedback and you get mad because he asks for feedback?????

On topic, I dunno, it doesn't seem like it would really affect balance to a significant degree, I'm just not sure I see the point. No strong opinion either way

I can see these being a big deal in blob when a certain HOS gets out his box of flashbangs.

danno wrote:It's pretty clear you're just trying to buff your favorite department and it's kind of embarrassing
there's no actual good reason for these to exist, if there was they would have existed a looooooooong time ago

I never quite understood how Steelpoint & his changes escaped this sort of response, despite there being a strong argument for why this statement applies word-for-word; it's starting to become clearer now.

John_Oxford wrote:~

A different set of HUDglasses for every guard locker is not unviable. Now I know how to make those (except the science goggle "HUD", but I can look into that), I can create the others. If I do, I'll post a thread up like this one.

MrStonedOne wrote:its like people forgot that security has flashes.

You're sort of contributing towards the point. Flashes don't even seem to see a use against cyborgs now, outside of security - people immediately pick up the ion rifle for their malfbusting needs. Malfborgs/hackborgs are defined and identified most often by their newfound capability to stun at immediate range, so people with the option of the rifle will clamour around it.

cedarbridge wrote:I can see these being a big deal in blob when a certain HOS gets out his box of flashbangs.

I have been killed by this recently myself.

Anonymous now is a Goodman.

AnonymousNow wrote:

danno wrote:It's pretty clear you're just trying to buff your favorite department and it's kind of embarrassing
there's no actual good reason for these to exist, if there was they would have existed a looooooooong time ago

I never quite understood how Steelpoint & his changes escaped this sort of response, despite there being a strong argument for why this statement applies word-for-word; it's starting to become clearer now.

They didn't.
He got git-banned.

Someone mentioned me?

Firstly my git-ban was not due to any of my changes, but it was due to me constantly arguing with Cheridan enough that he banned me to 'cool off' so to speak, I got the ban lifted a day or so after I talked to him on IRC.

Secondly my changes, despite claims to the contrary, were rarely if ever considered overpowered, and any change I did effect was usually well balanced alongside other security equipment.

---

The reason these MedHuds are seeing such blowback is more due to the fact that its not Medicals job to get into combat, and glasses are usually associated with combat or law enforcement oriented roles, and that we already have a Medical HUD.

Best bet would be a Medical Officer role in the brig to take these glasses, but that's a bit extreme.

Steelpoint wrote:Someone mentioned me?

Firstly my git-ban was not due to any of my changes, but it was due to me constantly arguing with Cheridan enough that he banned me to 'cool off' so to speak, I got the ban lifted a day or so after I talked to him on IRC.

Secondly my changes, despite claims to the contrary, were rarely if ever considered overpowered, and any change I did effect was usually well balanced alongside other security equipment.

---

The reason these MedHuds are seeing such blowback is more due to the fact that its not Medicals job to get into combat, and glasses are usually associated with combat or law enforcement oriented roles, and that we already have a Medical HUD.

Best bet would be a Medical Officer role in the brig to take these glasses, but that's a bit extreme.

Medbay already has an assigned SO. Just give them to him.

Then it would be just a gimmick at that point, Officers are going to take their standard SecHUDs over a MedHUD any time of the day as its their job to have access to the criminal database.

Medical does not need a pair of shades, nor does the CMO. Git gud and telebaton him, flash him, run, or shoot him with heparin. (which takes five seconds to make, chemistry does not get converted that fast unless a chemist is a head rev) And if you *must* have shades and a medical HUD, use your implant and get shades from maintenance. On meta, there's a pair right next to medical, don't know about delta, and box you could ask the warden.

Steelpoint wrote:Then it would be just a gimmick at that point, Officers are going to take their standard SecHUDs over a MedHUD any time of the day as its their job to have access to the criminal database.

I'm not so sure about that, since medbay buzzes with activity when people are being downed on the regular and an officer could pitch in with a pair of glasses they've got stashed away quite easily.

BeeSting12 wrote:Medical does not need a pair of shades, nor does the CMO. Git gud and telebaton him, flash him, run, or shoot him with heparin. (which takes five seconds to make, chemistry does not get converted that fast unless a chemist is a head rev) And if you *must* have shades and a medical HUD, use your implant and get shades from maintenance. On meta, there's a pair right next to medical, don't know about delta, and box you could ask the warden.

The fact that you refer to "him" as if there's a single aggressor, coupled with some personal knowledge of your style of play, suggests to me that you don't find yourself in medbay during revolutions very often. And the repeated notion that the first thing a CMO should do is go to chemistry and create toxins is worrying. Again, powergaming.

The cmo lives in a glass house oh no he has a fucking pair of sunnies soooo op.

Rev is a rapacious beast that strives on the engine of simplicity. It is not delicately balanced at all it is primitive and raw and consistently performs well due to low learning curve.

AnonymousNow wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:-snip-

The fact that you refer to "him" as if there's a single aggressor, coupled with some personal knowledge of your style of play, suggests to me that you don't find yourself in medbay during revolutions very often. And the repeated notion that the first thing a CMO should do is go to chemistry and create toxins is worrying. Again, powergaming.

You can flash multiple hostiles easily. And there is this thing called, I dunno, running. I guess getting shades roundstart to protect against flashes could be called powergaming, but if you code it in so you have them roundstart, it's not?

No, I do not find myself in medbay during a revolution because I'm smart. I gtfo when I hear of revolutionaries.

BeeSting12 wrote:~

None of those are particularly viable options when the first you're hearing about revolutionaries is when they're currently swarming you, which is what happens to most CMOs at the very beginning of most rev rounds. You CAN sax, but they've likely managed to stun you already.

> Doesn't want to powergame
> Doesn't want to lose

I'm sorry but isn't that the point of purposefully not preparing for the worst, to show you don't care about winning/losing?

> edited six times

Wew lad

I've played quite a bit of CMO, and I don't think it's a huge deal if these are added in some form.

Despite being an easy target I've never really been flashed or melee stunned during rev, its usually mobbed with spears, shot full of chems, or gunned down after the revs steal some weapons, but that's just my personal experience. Most rounds they wouldn't do much other than be a cosmetic thing.

That said, if you add them the other heads of staff will probably end up with special sunglasses of their own before too long, like what happened with the hardsuits. They might also cause some problems if there are more eye based stuns/features added in the future.

Maybe a good compromise would be to make them craftable from sunglasses and a medHUD implant? That way the CMO can sacrifice the autoimplanted one they get in their locker if they want the sunglasses version instead. They would have to wander around maint for a bit or hope sec is generous for the glasses though.

Wyzack wrote:> edited six times

Wew lad

you're cheating tho

TribeOfBeavers wrote:I've played quite a bit of CMO, and I don't think it's a huge deal if these are added in some form.

Despite being an easy target I've never really been flashed or melee stunned during rev, its usually mobbed with spears, shot full of chems, or gunned down after the revs steal some weapons, but that's just my personal experience. Most rounds they wouldn't do much other than be a cosmetic thing.

That said, if you add them the other heads of staff will probably end up with special sunglasses of their own before too long, like what happened with the hardsuits. They might also cause some problems if there are more eye based stuns/features added in the future.

Maybe a good compromise would be to make them craftable from sunglasses and a medHUD implant? That way the CMO can sacrifice the autoimplanted one they get in their locker if they want the sunglasses version instead. They would have to wander around maint for a bit or hope sec is generous for the glasses though.

this is probably a good compromise since using your medhud implant to make blue glasses is objectively worse than just implanting it and wearing normal sunglasses

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:~

I guess, though it's still pretty annoying to be knocked out of a round in its opening minutes. Besides, putting on a pair of glasses is more kosher than making toxins. It's the difference between putting your energy gun in your armour slot as the HoP and raiding the armoury, in my opinion.

Wyzack wrote:

TribeOfBeavers wrote:~

this is probably a good compromise since using your medhud implant to make blue glasses is objectively worse than just implanting it and wearing normal sunglasses

I rather like this, since it means that, in theory, it could be done with any HUD implant (that has an injector of some sort, so as not to circumvent the limitations from surgery). Injecting a set of regular shades would get you these glasses; injecting a set of sunhudsec could get you a set of purple sunglasses with both HUDs (based on the existing sec+medhud eyepiece, though that would likely be too much in sunglasses form). I don't currently know how to create sunglasses that can be altered with another item, but I can look into it if this idea proves popular (and I really should, since "turn X object into Y object with addition of Z object" must be important as all hell...).

---

The Medshades have been merged! Thanks, AnturK. Based on the poll, a significant majority of forumgoers who've been in this topic want them to be added to the CMO's loadout, but since adding them to the code has caused quite a bit of faff, I'm going to wait a couple of weeks, maybe a month at most, before I try to find a home for them ingame based on discussions taking place here. Thanks for your support and criticisms here, people.