Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

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Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:55 pm #535612

figured i'd post this for my own sake as a motivational kick in the pants, the old thread still exists but it may as well be useless at this point

tl;dr a while ago the idea of a budget station was tossed around, where departments start with worse versions of what they usually get on other maps. The idea was to encourage cooperative play and give people who struggle with making their own fun some more goals to work towards, and hopefully to create more interesting situations thanks to the relative scarcity of items/common crutches

The game has changed a fair bit since the original idea, though (they beat me to removing sleepers smh) - I lost motivation at the time because it seemed like something that only a handful of people would like, but the recent popularity of manuel and support of how the game there is played makes me think there's a legitimate audience for this sort of map again

I'll edit this more when I get home but some examples include

- cryo being replaced with showers + a wrench (a shower can be wrenched to make it hot or cold and lying under cold water is enough to make cryoxadone work, or at least it used to. would have to double check)
- botany doesn't get their nice trays, just piles of dirt
- minor stuff like spread out lights, messy areas, space to build, etc.

The main problems right now are

- I need to actually sit my stupid ass down and start again because the previous revision was so old it used the old wiring and stuff
- I need people who are well versed in departments I don't play (eg. science) to give me advice on what should and should not be included
- I need to find the sweetspot between "another usual station layout" and "absolute slog where it's impossible to do anything and the game sucks"

Spoiler:
If I'm being honest, I don't actually expect the map to get merged and even if it does I'm not sure what the response would be, especially on the non manuel servers - it's just a fun pet project of mine that I have a bit more motivation to work on these days + people have always been vocally supportive of the idea on the forums/in discord
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Nabski » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:33 pm #535619

I am still willing to do the wiring and disposals for you when it gets to that point.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby RaveRadbury » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:11 pm #535628

If you get it out before cloning evaporates you could have no roundstart cloner.
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:41 pm #535630

Nabski wrote:I am still willing to do the wiring and disposals for you when it gets to that point.


I'm less worried about this than I am the department specifics, though I will say >disposals

Arm said something about making trash cans use garbage bags and I like that

RaveRadbury wrote:If you get it out before cloning evaporates you could have no roundstart cloner.


I'm unsure if I want to tangle myself up in that debate but the original plan did have the cloner in question
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Kryson » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:42 pm #535639

I would actually love this. I hate resource bloat.

Replace box with this map if you have to,

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:10 am #535648

ok so do what he said but without the box removal part

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:18 am #535652

Kryson wrote:Replace box with this map if you have to,


i legitimately would rather die

begone, new players who think box is bad

that aside glad you like the idea, hopefully I'll sit down and start working soon
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Nabski » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:59 am #535684

Qbopper wrote:
Nabski wrote:I am still willing to do the wiring and disposals for you when it gets to that point.


I'm less worried about this than I am the department specifics, though I will say >disposals

Arm said something about making trash cans use garbage bags and I like that

RaveRadbury wrote:If you get it out before cloning evaporates you could have no roundstart cloner.


I'm unsure if I want to tangle myself up in that debate but the original plan did have the cloner in question


One of Okand's maps already did the trash can plan.

What departments do you not play and need info on?

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:05 pm #535841

Nabski wrote:One of Okand's maps already did the trash can plan.


sure, but it fits with the theme still - why would a station that can't even afford a cryotube off the bat waste time putting piping for disposals? (if you say "because they ran out of money after putting in the piping and wiring" i will plug my ears and hum until you go away)

Nabski wrote:What departments do you not play and need info on?


my thoughts on every department in no particular order:

  • science is a department i've never followed closely and thus have no idea where to start when it comes to stripping it down
  • medbay has changed a lot but I'm not worried about that too much, the move from sleepers and easy healing towards a more surgery focus already fits the theme pretty well
  • I don't know a ton about the security changes post stun rework, but that's more of a loadout issue than the department layout afaik
  • I have never played atmos
  • engineering, I don't know much about the SM, but I wouldn't include it anyways because it isn't budget enough imo. yes i am 100% aware this will result in people who don't know what the fuck other engines are screwing up but whatever that happened when the tesla was new and it happened when the SM was new. still not sure what engine will fit best
  • I haven't played modern mining but since it's all lavaland focused I'd imagine I don't need to worry about it a lot, I don't believe a map can change your loadout when you spawn so I'm limited in the changes I can make anyways
  • I haven't touched botany too much and don't know if things have changed significantly or not recently
  • bartender/chef is easy, the deepfryer is on my shitlist because it makes cooking a lot simpler imo, but I don't want to remove things that have no ability to be constructed during a round (and I don't know if you can build deep fryers) I just checked and there's a board for them in the circuit printer on the wiki
  • I also haven't played cargo in a hot minute
  • AI will be interesting, I'm unsure how I want to handle secure areas yet - it would be justifiable flavourwise to have no AI but that's not really a good idea
  • i'm probably forgetting something

most of this is just "I need to get back into the game again" but science is a department that's integral to the map's gimmick (the circuit printer is necessary to build a lot of the machines I won't put in by default) and I hesitate to fuck with it

the rest I can just take a couple of points of advice for but science I'll want actual advising because changing roles that give people new technology/bring in materials/etc. will have wide reaching effects on rounds on a station that depends on people building their own stuff
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Nabski » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:30 pm #535854

Qbopper wrote:
Nabski wrote:One of Okand's maps already did the trash can plan.


sure, but it fits with the theme still - why would a station that can't even afford a cryotube off the bat waste time putting piping for disposals? (if you say "because they ran out of money after putting in the piping and wiring" i will plug my ears and hum until you go away)

Nabski wrote:What departments do you not play and need info on?


my thoughts on every department in no particular order:

  • science is a department i've never followed closely and thus have no idea where to start when it comes to stripping it down
  • medbay has changed a lot but I'm not worried about that too much, the move from sleepers and easy healing towards a more surgery focus already fits the theme pretty well
  • I don't know a ton about the security changes post stun rework, but that's more of a loadout issue than the department layout afaik
  • I have never played atmos
  • engineering, I don't know much about the SM, but I wouldn't include it anyways because it isn't budget enough imo. yes i am 100% aware this will result in people who don't know what the fuck other engines are screwing up but whatever that happened when the tesla was new and it happened when the SM was new. still not sure what engine will fit best
  • I haven't played modern mining but since it's all lavaland focused I'd imagine I don't need to worry about it a lot, I don't believe a map can change your loadout when you spawn so I'm limited in the changes I can make anyways
  • I haven't touched botany too much and don't know if things have changed significantly or not recently
  • bartender/chef is easy, the deepfryer is on my shitlist because it makes cooking a lot simpler imo, but I don't want to remove things that have no ability to be constructed during a round (and I don't know if you can build deep fryers) I just checked and there's a board for them in the circuit printer on the wiki
  • I also haven't played cargo in a hot minute
  • AI will be interesting, I'm unsure how I want to handle secure areas yet - it would be justifiable flavourwise to have no AI but that's not really a good idea
  • i'm probably forgetting something

most of this is just "I need to get back into the game again" but science is a department that's integral to the map's gimmick (the circuit printer is necessary to build a lot of the machines I won't put in by default) and I hesitate to fuck with it

the rest I can just take a couple of points of advice for but science I'll want actual advising because changing roles that give people new technology/bring in materials/etc. will have wide reaching effects on rounds on a station that depends on people building their own stuff


Make every disposals just throw the trash into maint then stop there, simple and unique.

I have opinions on science and atmos.

Security really hasn't changed you just use disablers instead of tasers.

Mining is hard to change because I don't think you can edit lavaland.

I can't talk on botany.

The only new thing in cargo is the bounties.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:07 pm #535861

Nabski wrote:Make every disposals just throw the trash into maint then stop there, simple and unique.

I have opinions on science and atmos.

Security really hasn't changed you just use disablers instead of tasers.

Mining is hard to change because I don't think you can edit lavaland.

I can't talk on botany.

The only new thing in cargo is the bounties.


Dumping trash into maint is such a stupid idea that as much as I want to use trash cans I kind of like it - maybe I could go as far as having all the departmental disposal chutes link up to one dump in maint? Lavaland you definitely would not be able to change without insane snowflake shit that wouldn't get merged, but I care less about that than the gameplay on the station tbh. If you decide to play shaft miner you already are going to be missing out on a lot of the shit on the station so whatever

The other stuff is what I figured but since I mainly play stuff like medbay/mime/detective I just wanted to be sure there was nothing insanely different
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Iatots » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:57 pm #536592

I wonder if a special delivery chute could be made to spread the output over a large area instead of always throwing it X tiles in front of it. It would help creating a "dump" feel instead of making a random square into a quantum stockpile.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:49 pm #536618

Iatots wrote:I wonder if a special delivery chute could be made to spread the output over a large area instead of always throwing it X tiles in front of it. It would help creating a "dump" feel instead of making a random square into a quantum stockpile.


Snowflake stuff probably wouldn't be received too well, I feel? But I don't actually know and I'm just assuming, in this case

It's an interesting idea but I think people might complain that it leans a bit too far on the timewasting slog side of gameplay
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Capsandi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:11 am #550610

Perhaps instead of atmos starting with 9 tiles worth of like, a billion moles of each gas, you can have a few empty tanks with inputs hooked up to connector ports and have the public mining shuttle gather cansisters of gasses from lavaland. Plasma could be generated via SM if present or by grinding it and dumping it out of beakers. Also, if you want to get REALLY low budget you can give engineering a few inducers and no powernet outside of engineering, and atmos portable pumps and scrubbers and no pipe net. Don't forget that RCDs and RPDs are luxuries used by the lazy youth, and real engineers use grit & elbow grease!

For chemistry, no dispenser, maybe a grinder, or for the ultra budget, mortar & pestle, I believe pills use the same administering function as syringes do, so get rid of the pill machine, too! that has the added benefit of removing a theoretically infinite supply of bottles.

For botany, remove the biogenerator as everything it offers can be made other, more budget, ways, composting is gooood

For cargo, in the json set the cargo shuttle to the map's own cargo shuttle which is just the size of an escape pod.
For escape, default to a budget escape shuttle, i believe there's a few, including one which is just 2 escape pods

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby FloranOtten » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:14 pm #551546

Capsandi wrote:snip


For atmos: There isn't enough plasma on lavaland to grind up enough for any decent quantity of gasses. The SM produces it so slowly that atmos memes are physically impossible. No RPD means no pipes. At all. The static dispensers were removed iirc. Lavaland doesn't produce things like n2o, so that's right off the table.

For Chemistry: No dispenser? No chemistry. Have you ever used ghettochem? Disregarding that not all base chemicals can be ground up, the difficulty of finding a sufficient amount of things like glowsticks means that making anything complex takes an hour per recipe. Additionally, the pill press is also the only reliable way (outside of whatever that toilet filter thing is, which is really inefficient and wierd.) of seperating chems. ]

For Botany: Removing the biogenerator isn't really a major nerf. You can still make god plants just the same.

For Cargo: replacing the shuttle doesn't hinder them, really. Just makes it more annoying, and you can't later upgrade it. Maybe reduce the starting cargo budget instead?

For Escape, budget would be nice. Don't use the two escape pod one. I made it. It's unbalanced as hell. One bomb kills the entire shuttle, and one minibomb kills half of those aboard. Hijack is piss easy, too.
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Tamaguen » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:49 pm #551552

I got a couple suggestions for slashing departmental budgets

Sec: No stunbatons, instead they all get a truncheon like the detective's Police Baton. Mechanically, it does much less stun and slightly less stamina damage than stun batons, but it doesn't require a power cell that you may need to recharge. No seclights either, those are much too fancy. Default blue flashlights until the station has the resources to print/order real seclights. They could also not spawn with sechud sunglasses. Maybe regular sunglasses or a sechud instead.

Mining: No Kinetic Accelerator at roundstart; back to pickaxes. If you want a kinetic accelerator, you need to buy it with your own mining points. And just the same as sec, no seclights. Start with the blue flashlights. I'd also suggest no telecomms on the mining base, but that would be cruel.

Botany: No hatchets, spades cut just fine. No chemical separator machine. I'd suggest no seed extractor machine, only the portable bags, but that would also be cruel.

Robotics: One part printing machine at roundstart, fewer immediately available materials.

Stationwide: No little robots rolling around doing jobs for people. No Beepsky, Scrubs, or Inspector Johnson.

Cargo: No conveyors, you have to push it on your own. No MULEbots either (Not like they got much use, anyway.)
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:50 am #551593

worth noting this is on hold again because my byond hasn't worked for a month or two and thus I have no way to test it :)
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Fikou » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:37 am #551638

Qbopper wrote:worth noting this is on hold again because my byond hasn't worked for a month or two and thus I have no way to test it :)

have you tried turning it off and on again
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Qbopper » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:39 pm #552084

Fikou wrote:
Qbopper wrote:worth noting this is on hold again because my byond hasn't worked for a month or two and thus I have no way to test it :)

have you tried turning it off and on again


yes

I unironically have no options left beyond reinstalling windows to try that, and even that's not feasible thanks to me not having any backup medium for my shit (and I can't go get some because I'm technically homeless rn and I'm unemployed)
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:22 am #552135

try running a VM?
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:29 am #552136

Whenever my byond doesnt work I just keep restarting and ending it in task manager then forget about it

a few hours later it pings me about the latest Byond News Update and starts working

That or I just restart my computer.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Capsandi » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:38 pm #553304

FloranOtten wrote:For atmos: There isn't enough plasma on lavaland to grind up enough for any decent quantity of gasses. The SM produces it so slowly that atmos memes are physically impossible. No RPD means no pipes. At all. The static dispensers were removed iirc. Lavaland doesn't produce things like n2o, so that's right off the table.

Static dispensers are still there, just check any map in rotation, annoying to use until you get a RPD? yes. budget is the point so if you want more plasma then you will need to run a more risky set up which makes more plasma, or buy it from cargo. iirc N20 has a synthesis reaction which is similar to N02 but, like endothermic? I think it was just added a few weeks ago

For Chemistry: No dispenser? No chemistry. Have you ever used ghettochem? Disregarding that not all base chemicals can be ground up, the difficulty of finding a sufficient amount of things like glowsticks means that making anything complex takes an hour per recipe. Additionally, the pill press is also the only reliable way (outside of whatever that toilet filter thing is, which is really inefficient and wierd.) of seperating chems.
Well yes it will be very inefficient, that's like, the point of the station, if you want everything that other stations give you then don't play on a station meant to be a challenge. plus it will only affect you for like 20 minutes until R&D researches medical stuff and you get your pill maker back. https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Ghetto_Chemistry i belive that accounts for all chems in the synth at roundstart + a few more, that isn't even counting grinding botanical produce which can mass produce many chemicals, and all mineables breaking down into their chemical counterparts.

For Cargo: replacing the shuttle doesn't hinder them, really. Just makes it more annoying, and you can't later upgrade it. Maybe reduce the starting cargo budget instead?

You're right there, if only there was a way to express-export, cause firing small pods into space seems way more budget then an entire shuttle the size of two rooms docking.

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby FloranOtten » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:05 pm #553473

Capsandi wrote:
FloranOtten wrote:For atmos: There isn't enough plasma on lavaland to grind up enough for any decent quantity of gasses. The SM produces it so slowly that atmos memes are physically impossible. No RPD means no pipes. At all. The static dispensers were removed iirc. Lavaland doesn't produce things like n2o, so that's right off the table.

Static dispensers are still there, just check any map in rotation, annoying to use until you get a RPD? yes. budget is the point so if you want more plasma then you will need to run a more risky set up which makes more plasma, or buy it from cargo. iirc N20 has a synthesis reaction which is similar to N02 but, like endothermic? I think it was just added a few weeks ago

Except engineering and atmospherics are entirely seperate departments, so atmos will have a hell of a time getting engi to agree to a risky setup. Additionally, even the riskiest setup with scarcely produce enough plasma to fill two tanks without waiting for 10 minutes. Have you seen the amount of plasma and oxygen used for a tritium burn? Let alone trying to fusion with this station. You'd need five hours of running a risky SM and mining lavaland, plus running reactions, to attain any worthwhile amount of gas. This station would just be the death of any atmospherics tech.

For Chemistry: No dispenser? No chemistry. Have you ever used ghettochem? Disregarding that not all base chemicals can be ground up, the difficulty of finding a sufficient amount of things like glowsticks means that making anything complex takes an hour per recipe. Additionally, the pill press is also the only reliable way (outside of whatever that toilet filter thing is, which is really inefficient and wierd.) of seperating chems.
Well yes it will be very inefficient, that's like, the point of the station, if you want everything that other stations give you then don't play on a station meant to be a challenge. plus it will only affect you for like 20 minutes until R&D researches medical stuff and you get your pill maker back. https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Ghetto_Chemistry i belive that accounts for all chems in the synth at roundstart + a few more, that isn't even counting grinding botanical produce which can mass produce many chemicals, and all mineables breaking down into their chemical counterparts.

It's not inefficient. It's impossible. There's no: Bromine, Fluorine, Sodium, Stable Plasma and Sulfuric Acid. Besides, look at the ghettochem list. How many glowsticks are there on the station? How many matches do you have to grind up for phosphorous? Radium can only be obtained using a randomly spawned roundstart goo, which is in damned short supply. The only significant source of Iodine is airlock painters. How many of those are on station? The only way to get Potassium is a tear gas grenade. How many of those are on station, and how are you convincing sec to give you one? The only way to get sulfur is with flares, how many of those are there?

Botany and mining aren't solutions. Botany is hard enough to convince to do things even without you being unable to give them unstable mutagen (which is very helpful for botany, and lack of it hampers their progress, thus reducing the source!) because you have 30u of radium at roundstart, tops. That's already 6 goo puddles. Mining gives you things like Iron, yes, but that's about it. You can't grind plasma into stable plasma, only into liquid plasma. Uranium doesn't make radium, but uranium for virology. Besides, the only non-available chem you could get from botany is Sulphuric Acid, from nettles. You're still lacking bromine, fluorine, sodium and stable plasma.
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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby Capsandi » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:21 pm #553748

Okay you got me on chemistry, god i can't wait until the day those magic dispensers are gone!

But for atmos, if a SM engine is too high budget then I'm guessing this station is running on solars, as they are very budget, imagine how much buring that priceless plasma gas costs running through that turbine, when you could just slap some solars on the station for the one time price of however much it costs to buy the panels. Atmos memery should be out of the question, fusion shouldn't be accessible round start on a station which doesn't have all the luxuries of a high tech research station, you should need to build an SM engine from scratch just to get at that sweet, sweet gas! If your going to start suffering withdrawals from not coombusting gasses then you can buy it from cargo. the rest of the gasses can be supplied by lavaland, you wouldn't even need to unwrench the canister, just have the pipe that the gas enters by on lavaland connect up to the pod and the filter loop on station. Atmos could be very simplified round start, only having the waste, supply, and filter loops.

If you don't like the idea of earning that succulent plasma gas, go back to meta, nobody is going to force you to play the challenge station

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Re: Budgetstation... 2! (but not really)

Postby FloranOtten » Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:42 am #553868

Capsandi wrote:But for atmos, if a SM engine is too high budget then I'm guessing this station is running on solars, as they are very budget, imagine how much buring that priceless plasma gas costs running through that turbine, when you could just slap some solars on the station for the one time price of however much it costs to buy the panels. Atmos memery should be out of the question, fusion shouldn't be accessible round start on a station which doesn't have all the luxuries of a high tech research station, you should need to build an SM engine from scratch just to get at that sweet, sweet gas! If your going to start suffering withdrawals from not coombusting gasses then you can buy it from cargo. the rest of the gasses can be supplied by lavaland, you wouldn't even need to unwrench the canister, just have the pipe that the gas enters by on lavaland connect up to the pod and the filter loop on station. Atmos could be very simplified round start, only having the waste, supply, and filter loops.

If you don't like the idea of earning that succulent plasma gas, go back to meta, nobody is going to force you to play the challenge station


But, they are going to force you to play on challenge station. It's a map in rotation. You don't get to say no and move to a different map without switching servers, and EU people only have two servers to choose from without lagging to hell. One of those is Event Hall. If this is rolled on Terry, then an EU player who doesn't feel like dealing with Event Hall players can go quit the game.

Atmos is out of a job, then. Fusion and shit is the entire reason to play it. What else is there? Breaches are sealed by engineers. Fires that atmos responds to are already rare as hell, especially now that you don't have any plasma. And it's fine to remove jobs. Maybe this station doesn't have chemistry, toxins, atmospherics techs and some others. But that should be mentioned. That means that it's not just a station that's a bit worse for wear, it's a station without several major jobs.

Building an SM engine then waiting for long enough to be able to do a single tritbomb is laughable, and if you honestly think that is doable, you haven't played with the SME enough. It'd take 12 hours. Especially considering you're starting without plasteel, pipe dispensers, etc.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
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