Tramstation (choo CHOO)

[Misdoubtful]

Some people have had issues with AI not having cams in its sat (so AI can't use their foamers for example) and concerns about the naming scheme of cameras being different from the norm and hard to adjust to. Having to scroll to find tcomms instead of just typing 't' or 'b' for bridge. Just passing this along.

[cacogen]

I'll reserve my possibly correct judgement until I don't end up being online to play it.

this is my third map and I don't think ive ever gotten a piece of feedback more useless than "i heard someone say it was bad so i im going to also say it's bad without having even looked at it"

right? lmao, enough to just discard his feedback completely no matter if he's played or not

That isn't a proper characterisation of what I said, though.

I initially criticised the concept, which is separating the station into different areas with a means of transport between them that's easily sabotaged and low capacity (which will slow people to a crawl).

And then I commented on the pretty severe feedback which was just being ignored as though to pretend it wasn't an issue:

map literally imploded tg servers
i dont know if its because you fucked atmos up or because you put multiple z-levels but it's horrid
2 tile wide hallways encourage durrhurring with a baseball bat
the tram gimmick gets old quick especially when everybody spams it for "the lulz!!!"
1 tile wide hallway to get to the other sides of the left & right station with NO RAILINGS
lower z-level of tram has railings while top side of tram has none??? what???????????????????????????????
and the most egregious sin of all, potentially the most evil thing you could ever do
you put the VAULT in the ARMORY
the BIGGEST fuck you to the entire station, and traitors with plutonium core objective
tl;dr: this map makes me malding

I initially posted to say that the effortful issue reports people like Nari Harimoto were making complete with screenshots over details he's overlooked in his laziness were pointless when it was as fucked up as it sounded and may not even be a good map concept to begin with.

You don't even take feedback into account to begin with. You're quite happy ramming something broken or poorly conceived down people's throats.

I regret trying to take the middle road and deleting my post now, because I don't think this deserves the benefit of the doubt now.

[MMMiracles]

you're literally just parroting someone else's criticism without having ever touched the map you are actually more than useless in this situation please do not reply to my threads anymore thank you

[cacogen]

No, I don't consider doing what I described above as parroting saprasam's opinion. I'm not sure if it's accurate of the map now, or when he posted it. You don't seem to have addressed it at all though, so I don't have any reason to doubt what he's saying. Nor have you said anything to dissuade me from what I've posted about the concept. You just insist what I'm saying is invalid because I haven't had the opportunity to playtest it yet.

But you can't even tell me when I can playtest it. If I do happen to stumble across it, I'll let you know what I think. Maybe the trams are fine, what saprasam said isn't accurate and you'll have fixed some of the issues people have reported here. But I sort of doubt it now.

[ShibaInuLord]

holy shit the new tram is amazing

[trollbreeder]

I saw admiral's video that had trams on delta and someone attached 2 emitters to it to make a BATTLE TRAM.
Best feature in the game, i rate it a pinewood/10

[cacogen]

So I got to experience the tram today. It was unprecedented. Revelatory. It vibrated, as though brimming with unharnessed energy. We went left and right. I was overtired and listening to a song that sounded a lot like what coming up on LSD must feel like and it was a feeling not unlike discovering the existence of a loving God. The server began to collapse in on itself as spacetime itself was brought to its knees and at some point half the tram was left behind. Later I died in one of its windows in space at the edge of the map. The journey continued.

[CoffeeDragon16]

I'm liking it a lot. It's unique, properly implements multi Z, and the tram is a really fun mechanic. The multi Z is fantastic, and has great interactions. The vertical maints are fun, and make for interesting fights. So is the underpass, it has a lot of potential for cool stuff going on there. Once, I was a headrev, and sat under it and flashed the (many) people that fell down. I saw a traitor rounded people up and cuffed them down by the tracks, real old timey villian. I think it's great. Two points of issue I have here, though. One: Engi needs some love. It's empty and doesn't have much to it be it an interesting layout or decoration. The power is all sorts of fucky, too, but I've heard you're already working on that. Other thing is the size of the asteroid. It's up to you, and you probably have a good reason for it, but I feel like the outside of the asteroid has too much rock. It's a pain to get around because of how big it is. I think this could be improved by putting a jetpack or two in Engineering. Delta has this to compensate for the large station, so it doesn't take a long time to set up solars.
Other than that, keep it up! It's fresh, memorable, and I'm very excited for it to get into the game.

Edit after playing a few more rounds: I find the maints lacking. From what I've seen, antags that require discretion and maintcrawling like Cult really suffer due to the lack of maints. It's quite tough as the existing maints don't go all too deep. I think this could be remedied by adding a solid amount more maints on the bottom floor. Adding top floor maints entrances around which are just ladders down to bottom floor maints would be quite appreciated. I think this would promote interconnected pathways between areas that don't require the tram itself, which is something this map lacks compared to others.

[cacogen]

Can't speak to the station outside the tram but

[BrianBackslide]

This map is delightfully cursed and I hope it stays. As a Botany main though, I have some gripes.
Botany maint is lacking. In fact, service maint as a whole is lacking. It's just one hallway with no rooms and, more importantly, no loot.
The Botany department could stand to be a smidge larger. It's much too small for three people to work in.
The biogenerator is not shared with the chef, so we have to tear down a wall and move it. (Not as big an issue since we get shared tool storage right next to us)
The bee area doesn't come roundstart with bees, just an apiary.

Most importantly:
I beg of you, please put in a service lathe! We looked, it isn't there!

[SuperNovaa41]

Absolutely love this map, however theres two main issues: Tcomms is almost always fucked for power upon round start, and please god introduce more maints. The second floor opens up a lot of oppurtiny for sprawling maintenance tunnels, and i feel that its missing the various hidden rooms of abandoned departments / storage areas that it deserves.

[Super Aggro Crag]

this map fucking rocks

[saprasam]

i can now safely say i have played tram for a long enough period for a good & proper criticism
i still dont like it but i see the value in it
the tram gimmick is interesting but the fact that it is the ONLY way to get around the station effectively without either a: being crushed like an ant, or b: traversing through maints (which is destitute, barren, etc) and the main ways to the ladders being behind railings & random bracket shaped hallways is infuriating, and c: not even a way you can go through normally, the space airlocks by the tram area or w/e. why the fuck are they unpressurized holy shit its not even open to space unless there's an invisible opening in the roof with the desecrated space carcass of the past assistant who went through it
maint is literally a 1x1 tile long hallway with only a few rooms with no loot in them, and nothing interesting to them.
with delta you have sprawling gigantic fatass maints where at MINIMUM there is one interesting area or small room worth looting, with meta there is much loot to get, box is box ,and tram has like fuck all
and finally; the tram
holy fuck this thing is a nightmare, i will split it into 2 sections
1: gameplay
the tram is the only effective way of getting around the station, so it must work good, right? i mean yea kinda but the fact that you get penalized just for not using the tram is stupid but i guess its better then being gibbed
the tram is extremely laggy due to the fact that byond sucks fat donkey nuts, and i always feel like i am going to fall out of the tram if i go in it, and it's extremely prone to issues
gameplay rating: its ok i guess
2: coding
holy fucking shit i havent seen something break so often
i dont think i've had a round where the tram doesnt have a supreme fuckup (instantly killing people who go inside it via spamthrowing), or causes the game to move to a complete standstill
coding rating: i am not a coder i cannot judge

total saprasam retard rating:
maybe it'll be good in the future but i dont like it right now

[MMMiracles]

The tram is an active project currently between two volunteers and will probably take the longest to iron out. I really do hope to get it nailed down soon because when it works I find it to be extremely enjoyable to watch the crew interact with it. I personally don't see the issue with the main method of travel being the tram, since otherwise you just have a generic hallway to walk through. Here at least you're actively being put into situations with other crewmembers where otherwise you'd simply pass each other sparingly.

As for the maintenance comments, I understand the difference between other stations is a bit off but I personally dislike the direction maintenance has gone with it becoming a stuffed loot fest with tons of pre-built rooms and gimmicks set up for players and I am actively trying to avoid reinforcing that mindset. I've taken some effort to stocking maintenance with loot spawners, side tunnels, and even basic mining equipment so creative crew can dig out their own pathways or stashes. Hell, the asteroid itself even spawns low-tier minerals like iron, silver, gold, and even very rarely plasma, diamonds, and uranium.

[Super Aggro Crag]

The tram is an active project currently between two volunteers and will probably take the longest to iron out. I really do hope to get it nailed down soon because when it works I find it to be extremely enjoyable to watch the crew interact with it. I personally don't see the issue with the main method of travel being the tram, since otherwise you just have a generic hallway to walk through. Here at least you're actively being put into situations with other crewmembers where otherwise you'd simply pass each other sparingly.

As for the maintenance comments, I understand the difference between other stations is a bit off but I personally dislike the direction maintenance has gone with it becoming a stuffed loot fest with tons of pre-built rooms and gimmicks set up for players and I am actively trying to avoid reinforcing that mindset. I've taken some effort to stocking maintenance with loot spawners, side tunnels, and even basic mining equipment so creative crew can dig out their own pathways or stashes. Hell, the asteroid itself even spawns low-tier minerals like iron, silver, gold, and even very rarely plasma, diamonds, and uranium.

the asteroid parts dont have air beneath the rock so you take vacuum damage if you dig it out until pressure equalizes. Is this intentional? If not can you fix it so i can dig more its fun

[MMMiracles]

The tram is an active project currently between two volunteers and will probably take the longest to iron out. I really do hope to get it nailed down soon because when it works I find it to be extremely enjoyable to watch the crew interact with it. I personally don't see the issue with the main method of travel being the tram, since otherwise you just have a generic hallway to walk through. Here at least you're actively being put into situations with other crewmembers where otherwise you'd simply pass each other sparingly.

As for the maintenance comments, I understand the difference between other stations is a bit off but I personally dislike the direction maintenance has gone with it becoming a stuffed loot fest with tons of pre-built rooms and gimmicks set up for players and I am actively trying to avoid reinforcing that mindset. I've taken some effort to stocking maintenance with loot spawners, side tunnels, and even basic mining equipment so creative crew can dig out their own pathways or stashes. Hell, the asteroid itself even spawns low-tier minerals like iron, silver, gold, and even very rarely plasma, diamonds, and uranium.

the asteroid parts dont have air beneath the rock so you take vacuum damage if you dig it out until pressure equalizes. Is this intentional? If not can you fix it so i can dig more its fun

The problem with doing that is that it'd mean every time you dig into an external part, you'd be releasing a tile's worth of atmos into space and that probably doesn't bode well if you're digging inward from space. I can scatter some more generalized air canisters/space heaters in maintenance so you can do a quick and dirty pressurization on the rooms dug out.

[Qustinnus]

As for the maintenance comments, I understand the difference between other stations is a bit off but I personally dislike the direction maintenance has gone with it becoming a stuffed loot fest with tons of pre-built rooms and gimmicks set up for players and I am actively trying to avoid reinforcing that mindset. I've taken some effort to stocking maintenance with loot spawners, side tunnels, and even basic mining equipment so creative crew can dig out their own pathways or stashes. Hell, the asteroid itself even spawns low-tier minerals like iron, silver, gold, and even very rarely plasma, diamonds, and uranium.

based opinion.

[cacogen]

I don't understand how anyone could feel that way. Exploring DeltaStation's maintenance and collecting loot is a lot of fun.

[MMMiracles]

I don't understand how anyone could feel that way. Exploring DeltaStation's maintenance and collecting loot is a lot of fun.

Why should I bother interacting with cargo/engineering/science when most of their basic equipment can be found freely among the trash of maintenance in excess amount, along with several pre-built ghetto rooms that exist because people at some point decided they're tired of building the rooms themselves and mapped them in?

[Capsandi]

I don't understand how anyone could feel that way. Exploring DeltaStation's maintenance and collecting loot is a lot of fun.

No bro, ITS SHIT
There are lights LITERALLY EVERYWHERE, and there are whole rooms that are barricaded off. Delta is the poster-boy of shitty maintenance design, too much space is taken up going "hey, you can build a private investigator's office here". Theres like, 2 space heaters on the entire map and portable atmos equipment is extinct. I dont care if a mapper thinks their fully furnished surgery room is ghetto because theres shit and dirt on the ground, if I want a ghetto surgery room, I'll build my own shitty surgery room and ill use ghetto surgery tools if I cant find a set of real tools. All I want out of maints are unfurnished, strangely shaped rooms and tile wide hallways which are easy to barricade, with canisters and portable atmos equipment in it. In some places, delta has SCRUBBERS and VENTS in MAINTENANCE like why the fuck.
And dont get me started on barricades. Cult needs to go loud almost immediately on delta because whenever there's a barricade removed, its clear as day that illegal shit is happening, because nobody else has ever stepped foot in the abandoned library. Perhaps it would be easier to hide if it were more generic?
If Miracle's maints are shit, then what do you want? 3 tile wide hallways with atmos and ample lighting and operational atmospherics?

[cybersaber101]

Just a small thing - The service lathe you added can't be reached by the cook or bartender because they don't have access.

[cacogen]

I want fun and/or useful loot, interesting areas to explore and even the possibility of getting lost. DeltaStation is a great example of the former two. Does it suffer from an overabundance of items that affect balance? Probably

[Super Aggro Crag]

The tram is an active project currently between two volunteers and will probably take the longest to iron out. I really do hope to get it nailed down soon because when it works I find it to be extremely enjoyable to watch the crew interact with it. I personally don't see the issue with the main method of travel being the tram, since otherwise you just have a generic hallway to walk through. Here at least you're actively being put into situations with other crewmembers where otherwise you'd simply pass each other sparingly.

As for the maintenance comments, I understand the difference between other stations is a bit off but I personally dislike the direction maintenance has gone with it becoming a stuffed loot fest with tons of pre-built rooms and gimmicks set up for players and I am actively trying to avoid reinforcing that mindset. I've taken some effort to stocking maintenance with loot spawners, side tunnels, and even basic mining equipment so creative crew can dig out their own pathways or stashes. Hell, the asteroid itself even spawns low-tier minerals like iron, silver, gold, and even very rarely plasma, diamonds, and uranium.

the asteroid parts dont have air beneath the rock so you take vacuum damage if you dig it out until pressure equalizes. Is this intentional? If not can you fix it so i can dig more its fun

The problem with doing that is that it'd mean every time you dig into an external part, you'd be releasing a tile's worth of atmos into space and that probably doesn't bode well if you're digging inward from space. I can scatter some more generalized air canisters/space heaters in maintenance so you can do a quick and dirty pressurization on the rooms dug out.

if you're digging inward from space, you have a space suit on and will get launched outwards and maybe have to throw something. the way you have it now is if you're digging in the maint holes you end up maybe clearing 4 bricks before you're in soft crit unless you get EVA access.

[RaveRadbury]

Please put locks on the toilet airlocks.

[cacogen]

Had a good round on Tram today. The tram was nowhere to be found so it was relatively stable until most of the station lost atmosphere and I died from space exposure after my oxygen tank ran out (did not see any O2 lockers to replace it.)

Bartender taught me how to look up on multi-z, to see through the glass ceiling (there were no women up there).

Spent a lot of time exploring the station. The wayfinding pinpointer was actually helpful. Pinpointers should tell you where the z-level is the thing you want is on if it's not on this one (i.e. up or down from your own).

Maintenance is basically empty, and with the lack of filth decals and cobwebs it feels a lot like it used to back in the old days. It was fairly uniformly lit, which further made it feel like something before proper darkness was added. Underwhelming, but if it keeps people in the main areas of the station then maybe that's a good thing. Not every station has to handle things the same way, nor should they if a different design choice has its own advantages.

[mrmelbert]

Can I just say how much of a shame it is that the bridge has no windows and doesn't overlook the tram? The center of command, the supposed logistical core of tramstation, is a small dingy enclosed hut with some computers. I can't sit back at the command console, sipping coffee and eating donuts while processing centcom reports and watching the tram pass back and forth. It makes me sad.

[Sylphet]

Really liking tramstation. Multi-Z is great and I hope that we get to keep this map. Really like the radiation shelters. It could be interesting to see these expanded into panic rooms similar to Bay's Torch, but I haven't looked at the map itself to know if there's space. I love that engineering is on a separate z level together with maintenance, this just feels good in gameplay, for the two areas to be together. The tram is interesting, though I wonder what the options for sabotage are ? Being able to damage or destroy something so critical to the station would really help to set it further apart from the other stations, if this isn't already possible. I really like the room just below the kitchen and like that the kitchen and bar are separated.

Few minor complaints though - operating the tram feels weird. Is there a reason that there's no button inside of the tram to make it move, instead of clicking the floor ? Like, a button on the left side to send it to the left, and one on the right to send it to the right ? This feels very clunky as it exists now. It could also use some kind of indication that the tram is coming, for example - you're in the middle section and the tram is called from the left by someone on the right. Some lights, barriers, something like that. Medical seems to be missing a break room. The positioning of the stasis beds in an area where people move often is a little ugh. If we're not going to have operating rooms in common use it would be nice to have them in a quieter area, or you get people standing over you, pushing past in combat mode mid surgery - not fun. The holofans along the tram line can cause problems with objects being stuck under them and becoming unrecoverable (people in chairs is the example I saw). This is super minor but the rock outside of the station is a little boring, it looks like solid red rock. It has no ... texture to it.

[Armhulen]

Really liking tramstation. Multi-Z is great and I hope that we get to keep this map. Really like the radiation shelters. It could be interesting to see these expanded into panic rooms similar to Bay's Torch, but I haven't looked at the map itself to know if there's space. I love that engineering is on a separate z level together with maintenance, this just feels good in gameplay, for the two areas to be together. The tram is interesting, though I wonder what the options for sabotage are ? Being able to damage or destroy something so critical to the station would really help to set it further apart from the other stations, if this isn't already possible. I really like the room just below the kitchen and like that the kitchen and bar are separated.

Few minor complaints though - operating the tram feels weird. Is there a reason that there's no button inside of the tram to make it move, instead of clicking the floor ? Like, a button on the left side to send it to the left, and one on the right to send it to the right ? This feels very clunky as it exists now. Medical seems to be missing a break room. The positioning of the stasis beds in an area where people move often is a little ugh. If we're not going to have operating rooms in common use it would be nice to have them in a quieter area, or you get people standing over you, pushing past in combat mode mid surgery - not fun. The holofans along the tram line can cause problems with objects being stuck under them and becoming unrecoverable (people in chairs is the example I saw). This is super minor but the rock outside of the station is a little boring, it looks like solid red rock. It has no ... texture to it.

One thing I should tell you is that just today the field emitters will now violently crash the tram and blow it up, killing or seriously injuring everyone on board. Sabotage proof no longer!

[mrmelbert]

Blobs are absolutely hell to fight across the z-levels, especially if they're in perma or something. Having only one way down means you're stuck fighting it form one direction.

Every permablob i've seen pretty much went uncontested because of how ass it is to get there

[MMMiracles]

Blobs are absolutely hell to fight across the z-levels, especially if they're in perma or something. Having only one way down means you're stuck fighting it form one direction.

Every permablob i've seen pretty much went uncontested because of how ass it is to get there

Not a horrible point, but you have to remember that you're also on an asteroid that can be mined out and around departments. Also, if the blob is sitting on the lower floor, that means you have an entire ceiling you can blow out to drop shit directly on top of the blob.

[nianjiilical]

one minor issue that came up earlier: spiders spawned in permabrig and had no way to access the rest of the station because the only exit is via button and simplemobs cant use it

side antags getting stuck in perma might be a problem in general idk

[JusticeGoat]

Few issues with the science department, add one more space between the stairs and the RD office so you can push stuff down. Link science servers to lower level toxins bomb sensors since you can't progress in the new R&D system without recording explosions but they don't link across levels.

[BrianBackslide]

Make the tram move 10% faster every time it claims a soul hits someone.

I really like this station just for the audacity, and that you can basically do whatever you want down in the undertram. I frequently find myself lost in some forgotten part of the station since everyone sticks to their departments or is in medbay from tram-related incidents. (this is a good thing and we need more of that)

The service lathe at the moment only seems to allow Botanists, but usually some kind soul will cut the wall down.

[yeeye]

the tcomms relay next to the ai makes a grating noise constantly with no way to get rid of it, ai players are being driven even more insane than normal, please fix

[BrianBackslide]

I feel that the undertram should be more dangerous. Maybe more snaking passages for the undertram, and a longer tram hallway? The tram should be the safest and fastest method and I don't feel the undertram should be 1:1 with the tram hallway... Unless the tram will just completely destroy someone. Something like a subway system where there's maintenance rooms off to the sides in the undertram.

Also an idea if it is feasible: Emagging the tram console should launch people like an emagged escape shuttle.

[cacogen]

What console you tell the ground where you'd like to go