/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

I'll just address the stuff I haven't changed, in order;
Science and medbay aren't close because I don't have the time to try and, say, swap engineering and medical and I'm not sure I want to
I'm sorry for everything huge-corridor related but I made this map off of a dream and very little mapping experience so
The bridge has three entrances, from bridge storage,(which is bridge access) the captain's office, and the bridge hallway
The wardrobes and chargers being there is a feature
The disposals machine controls are accessible without being on a belt, you can access them from the switch to the left
The only alcove I didn't add was the chemistry one

I'd forget about the medbay-science position changing good long time if I were you. Little changes are the way to go unless you have a huge bout of energy and/or free time. Also, while Allura did update MetaStation and get it working again, and I'm very grateful for that, ignore their map feedback. It's almost always this incendiary and unhelpful. This must have taken enormous effort, and really is of a very high quality, so don't let petty criticism get you down.

Look forward to seeing this run a bit more when map-vote is back so I can give more proper feedback.

Anonus wrote: Science and medbay aren't close because I don't have the time to try and, say, swap engineering and medical and I'm not sure I want to

Even swapping science with the chapel/escape area would work. Then again it would change the traffic flow... hmm...

Anonus wrote: The bridge has three entrances, from bridge storage,(which is bridge access) the captain's office, and the bridge hallway
The wardrobes and chargers being there is a feature

It's a bold move Cotton! Let's see if it pays off!

Anonus wrote:The only alcove I didn't add was the chemistry one

Yesssss <3 alcoves

For the sec pod, I'd move the western sec equipment room maintenance so that sec can access the pod from the equipment room's SE corner. Unless the intention is for that to be a public escape pod, in which case rock on.

The firelocks outside atmos, move them south a bit.

The ancillary AI positions in the core are too weak. There needs to be at least 2 r-walls around the entirety of the core. That EMP hidden on the right side is either going to be terrible or awesome.

Are the coolers in tcomms actually hooked up? Can I make tcomms hospitable if I turn them off?

I'd add a set of shutters to the cargo waiting area at escape.

If you could reshuffle the detective's office so they can access interrogation I'd be so happy

Loving it so far. I hope we get a lot more time to play test this.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:-snip-

The pod is intended to be public if easily accessed by security, yes.
I did that already I'm just too fast.
The extra AI spots are weaker so that the core setup actually has some weaknesses as it's pretty powerful... And that's not an EMP.
Yes, they are hooked up, and yes, you can make it hospitable if you raise the temperature on them.
I would add shutters, but then I'd need to move the newscaster and radio and I'm not sure how much of a benefit shutters would be anyway.
I'm probably not gonna shuffle the detective's office because I really like how it turned out and I'm not super sure it's really worth it.

Aboslutely LOVE the kitchen layout. Chef doesn't start with any basic ingredients though, no rice, flour, etc. Just milk. Maybe toss him a bone?

Library seems excessive, its more like a shortcut in the halls as-is

still needs more doors in the hallways

there's a third set of implants in the courtroom locker for some reason

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Library seems excessive, its more like a shortcut in the halls as-is

still needs more doors in the hallways

there's a third set of implants in the courtroom locker for some reason

Er, what? Why would there be implants in the courtroom locker?
Also the chef not having flour etc will be fixed as soon as I find a few more errors to fix because I don't want too many commits on the PR.

Making the library a useful shortcut is actually a good idea, it will actually get people to go there

Dreamstation is merged!
This means updates and fixes will, of course, slow down because it means I've gotta go through git, which isn't always that easy, but it also means it'll be on map rotation when map rotation gets merged and it'll be easy to switch to.
Also yes I am going to maintain it unless something out of the ordinary happens.

Is the ouja board still on the map? If so, remove it please. I saw it being used almost every round during rotation, and I expect that security is going to start using it to ask ghosts who the traitor is.

Anonus wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Library seems excessive, its more like a shortcut in the halls as-is

still needs more doors in the hallways

there's a third set of implants in the courtroom locker for some reason

Er, what? Why would there be implants in the courtroom locker?
Also the chef not having flour etc will be fixed as soon as I find a few more errors to fix because I don't want too many commits on the PR.

I sure as hell don't know, but they seem to be in there, and I don't know why

You can always squash commits later, never be afraid to make incremental changes, it makes big projects easier. Alternately you can always make a fresh branch, reset --hard upstream/master to make it identical to the tgstation master and then git checkout only the files that have changed from your local master branch to make a merge branch with only one commit.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Anonus wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Library seems excessive, its more like a shortcut in the halls as-is

still needs more doors in the hallways

there's a third set of implants in the courtroom locker for some reason

Er, what? Why would there be implants in the courtroom locker?
Also the chef not having flour etc will be fixed as soon as I find a few more errors to fix because I don't want too many commits on the PR.

I sure as hell don't know, but they seem to be in there, and I don't know why

Well they sure as fuck aren't there in the map editor, so I can't do shit about it(and yes, the locker is of the correct type - I actually copied the courtroom from box so if it's an issue here it's an issue on box as well_

Anonus wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Anonus wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Library seems excessive, its more like a shortcut in the halls as-is

still needs more doors in the hallways

there's a third set of implants in the courtroom locker for some reason

Er, what? Why would there be implants in the courtroom locker?
Also the chef not having flour etc will be fixed as soon as I find a few more errors to fix because I don't want too many commits on the PR.

I sure as hell don't know, but they seem to be in there, and I don't know why

Well they sure as fuck aren't there in the map editor, so I can't do shit about it(and yes, the locker is of the correct type - I actually copied the courtroom from box so if it's an issue here it's an issue on box as well_

Maybe the HOS just decided for some reason that what the courtroom really needed that rev round was an unlocked, full box of implants

Some of the maps in rotation have active turfs at roundstart. This is a mapping error caused by a difference of the air between the adjacent turfs. There will be a big #WARNING message at roundstart telling you how many there are and how to find them (the verb it mentions is a debug verb; make sure to use the "Debug verbs" verb in the Debug panel so that it's visible). Make sure you fix these and PR it.

If, when you compile, it says that there are exactly 31 active turfs at roundstart, PLEASE tell me. There is a critical atmos runtime happening on that map and I need to know which map it is so I can fix it.

Map is decent, rusty walls look like shit though. pls remove

Breakdown of your map, since it was merged.

NEGATIVE

GENERAL

Obviously, I don't like it. That's not a problem that can really be fixed, but it's worth putting it out there. It's not nearly as bad as DiscStation, but I don't like the philosophy behind the map. That said, there's still good things about the map that I'm going to be pointing out.

Your design is a series of long, straight hallways that are completely ugly and boring. It's no fun to walk around a map that's just straight lines. A station shouldn't just be a giant hallway, and that's essentially what your map is.

Although experimenting is nice, the rusty walls you've placed everywhere honestly don't cut it. I think they would be aesthetically interesting if they were exclusively on the hull of the station, but you've taken it way too far. Just cut back on how many you put in.

Your sense of what needs to be secure and what doesn't is absolutely buttflustering. You have the vault with hilariously overdone wiring, surrounded by space and r windows, completely isolated, while the equipment room is two wall from a public hallway, and not even just that. The equipment room is in a very specific cranny that I doubt many people will venture to, so it's easy to do unpalatable things there. It seems that the mundane has been given VIP treatment while really definitely crazy shit like the captain's office is swiss fucking cheese in terms of durability.

A lot of areas are way, way big. Especially the bar and library. While the library could be spiced up to work better with that shape, the bar will need complete restructuring. The placement of the casino has made the entire bottom entrance empty to avoid covering it. And strangely enough, the theatre manages to be undersized despite all the space it has to expand into.
The positive to your designs is that they're nice little shortcuts in the hallways, and they remind me of trunkmap. Although the big picture is nice to look out, ultimately the two rooms are barren. This applies to other locations, those are just two of the worst.

As an addition to my above point, you somehow managed to make other rooms entirely TOO small. The worst of the bunch are dorms, the gateway, sec offices, atmospherics, the captain's office, botany, most of science, surgery, and the recreation center. Lucky for you, that means you have space to balance your map. You can shrink down large areas or fill the huge holes you left in maintenance to make small places bigger. So good on that.

There's too much empty space, even in rooms that seem finely sized. The security equipment room is ungodly, the mailing repo (which I think you should fill w/ 4 racks a la Efficiency Station 3), the bar (again), engineering, and medbay. While the first few can just be fixed with more decoration or rearranging, engineering and medbay need to be much less segmented. They're hyper-organized, and consequently there's very little to see in each room. This is at its worst in medbay, the top left section.

The worst thing is how awfully cramped this map is. It's actually claustrophobic, I would be uncomfortable playing in it.

SECURITY

I merit your pretty original design for security, but I'll hold back on that, since this is the negative section.

Interrogation is too empty.
The equipment room isn't secure enough, and it's too empty.
The HoS office is way too crowded, and doesn't need that windoor.
Perma is too small, and botany is set up awfully. Please consider trays instead of dirt piles.
Execution is too small.
Cut it out with the windows, they're god damn everywhere. I understand that it's for the warden, but it's overkill. There doesn't need to be so many.
Detective office is too small.
The mail area is still broken.
The hallways are weirdly empty, especially the awkward transition room between perma and the execution room.
The warden needs a direct door into the hallway. He has no need for so many tables, one can be taken out in favor of a door. Also, put shutters/an airlock on his desk. And another windoor.
The dark tiles have got to go.

CARGO

The lobby is too empty.
The mail room/desk combo is too empty.
The ore room/random fluff thing is both useless and too empty.
Mining is too cramped.
The cargo bay is too small, but it has space to expand downwards.
The QM office is ugly, with the dark tiles. Let him see into mining, also.
Why the hole into space? You have a lot of those, but not in a useful or attractive way, they're just there.

SCIENCE

Robotics is WAY, WAY too cramped. It's actually painful to look at. The mech bay is the same. You really seem up a creek there too, with how you set it up to be surrounded by vital shit.
Move the RnD equipment down 1 tile. Trash the glass tables.
The RD office is hysterically bad. It's tiny and cramped and painful to look at, and it has ugly dark tiles.
The Experimentor Room is too small.
Toxins is too small, and too cramped.
Xenobio's esoteric setup is bad, you should flip it like every other map does.

MEDBAY

Chemistry is too small.
The desk should be able to fit at least 2 people.
Cryogenics is too small.
Surgery is too small.
By having the top left area to heavily segmented, you've made each section way too empty. Try to combine it all into an organized hub, similarly to what you did with the mail room/desk of cargo.
Remove the hecking windoor from the CMO office.
The patient room is too small and very oblong.
Genetics monkey pen, please, give it grass, not ugly grey tiles.
The patient rooms in virology are too small. Also, the entire environment doesn't accommodate two workers. Also the break room is too small.

ENGINEERING

The vault is entirely too huge.
The bottom segment is too empty.
Your singularity containment is way too close to arrivals, it's not cool whenever the singularity gets loose and the first people to suffer are late joiners. And why only 4 shield gens?
There's no purpose for the SMES room, because the equipment room where they could easily fit is far enough from the singularity.
Remove the windoor from the CE office, and make it so that the space suit isn't one r-wall from a public hallway.
There's no point in the AI being connected to engineering, since it doesn't have telecomms. Box shares this problem, because Steelpoint, the man behind Box's AI sat, didn't realize that engineering only got the AI on Metastation because it had telecomms. Give it to science.
Telecomms is way too easy to intrude upon and ruin.
Atmospherics is too small and, since it isn't directly next to space, incredibly easy to break into and ruin. I have no clue how Anonus, the atmos god, has created probably the third worst atmos I've seen in a map.

CIVILIAN

Every civilian area is either too small or too big:
Library, bar, tool storage are too big.
Dorms, recreation, botany, kitchen are too small.
Chapel is too empty, and cut it out with the windows.
Janitor's anti-slip floors are redundant since the only people allowed in there have galoshes, and also they're ugly.

COMMAND

The bridge computers and stuff should be moved against the windows, and the central table both made into metal and expanded up one and down one.
Please kill the massive overuse of dark tiling. Just the main bridge is fine, thanks.
The HoP office manages to be too small and also too empty.
The AI core is way overstated with its shape and security, and it too many turrets.
The vault is hilariously oversecure with that wiring job, just make it all into one solid wire for Pete's sake. Nothing in it is comprising except on a very, very rare occasion.
Don't divide the gateway.

MISC

The catwalks are everywhere, and very ugly.
There's too many space holes/maint crevices that just serve to cramp the station even more and provide nothing cool to see.
Make the wires red or yellow. Green is hard to see, especially for a colorblind person.

POSITIVE

GENERAL

Nothing about the general idea of your map is good. I can say that more often than not, your minor details/structuring are nice, but the entire thing viewed as one creation is bad.
(Coming back here before I post, looking at it, I can say that you did good in that unimportant places are almost always perfectly small, like the law office or courtroom.)

SECURITY

As I said, the shape is cool and unique.
The warden/armory area is a nice box and it fits nicely together, especially with neither being too awfully cramped.
I like the placement of the HoS office, with a big ass space window.
Good that the secway is public... but why make it public if the key is in the armory? An oversight?

CARGO

I really do like the mail room/desk combo, it eliminates the useless division. However, at the same time, you added some weird transition room to do the job of useless segmenting.

SCIENCE

The entire symmetrical idea behind it is nice.
Toxins being split up into two room is a good idea in terms of how pretty it looks, but functionally it's bad.
Everything is basically put in a reasonable place, nothing is obnoxious to get around to finding.

MEDBAY

Nothing here is outstanding enough for me to point out, but all-in-all it's not an offensive place. I guess that Genetics is nice and open, while not being totally empty and awful.

ENGINEERING

The containment is interesting, nonetheless, but kill the catwalks please.
The segmenting here is moderated and actually good to look at, unlike Medbay.
The toppest section is especially cool, it's pretty much perfectly set up with fine equipment distribution.
The gravity gen, it's really really nice.
Thanks for the turbine. No thanks to the catwalks.

CIVILIAN

Library, bar, both are nice for how they provide crosswalks through the hallways.
If you fill up the bar, the massive design could work in your favor.
Departures is really awesome, I like it a lot. It also demonstrates the very characteristic segmenting you implemented everywhere in a great way.
A divided chapel, like Metastation, is always to die for.
I like that there's a cargo section in departures, although it is of course totally useless.

COMMAND

The bridge's design is actually hella cool, and although the AI core itself is ugly, its placement is pretty awesome.
The EVA is understated in a good way.

MISC

Maint, other than the random holes, is pretty much A+. I don't think it's nearly as functional as Metastation or Efficiency Station 3, but it's got good decor. Just really add more doors and it's perfect.

I kind of like this map, however I feel it is a very antag-focused station.

Maint leads into EVERYTHING. There's a maint entrance into pretty much every head office or secure storage. Maint door in the showers leads right into science. Once you have an emag or a toolbelt it's incredibly easy to get anywhere stealthily.

Not to mention no windoors on any plastic flaps, if you have a large cardboard box you can enter anywhere through them - and there are pre-made large cardboard boxes you can find in maint which even nixes the need to have to gather boxes to craft one. If I get a steal objective on Dream I run up in maint to get the box and then into through the flaps in just a few minutes of start time.

I like that there is a lot of resources and shit in maint, such as packs of metal, vending machine loaders, etc. You can find some pretty neat and useful scraps instead of just antag weapons (although there are quite a few of those too), which can help with improvising weapons or construction when in a jam.

As it stands, it's real easy to break into everywhere, especially the armory from below. I'd recommend turning the first set of wall into Rwalls as well, because it's really easy to false-wall them and get to work on the single Rwall to quickly get in if you know what you're doing.

Also, as already noted, there's a plastic flap leading to space between sec and the bridge.

I like the dark tiles myself.

Please don't listen to allura

There is no one true way to do mapping like they seem to be implying.

"learn to map" = "make a map"
I acknowledge I don't have the chops to make my own map, but I have more than enough experience to have provided what was definitely a fair critique of your map. Nothing I said was derived from some fictional map I've created, it's just common opinions I have as both a player, and someone who values function and small tweaks to a map.

No box of syringes in xenobio, 0/10

Hydroponics needs a botany wardrobe locker.

There's areas on the map where an air sensor is placed right over a vent. Since the vent will maintain normal pressure perfectly on its own tile if at all able it means that in most cases those air alarms will never report a problem, even if the room's been breached.

At the very least this is a problem for both vents on the bridge

PUT A MOP IN THE JANITORS CLOSET.

Aft starboard hallway APC isnt connected to power grid.

As of https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12403 I have addressed the rogue APC, the lack of mop, the lack of syringes, the air alarm placement, and a few other notable bugs and I'll update the map image this week hopefully.

Botany does not have Plant-B-Gone.

francinum wrote:Botany does not have Plant-B-Gone.

Okay did that is there anything else?

Also, the map image has promptly become outdated again.

Botany also lacks a grinder and a condimaster.

Noticed a few things while playing:

• Containment cameras appear to be missing or not functional; the monitor just gives an empty list.
• Power Storage is 3 tiles high, but has several static items blocking things, making it very hard to drag stuff around in there. Extending it by even one tile would help immensely (and it seems like enough empty space is available).
• No cigarette machine in Engineering (very important!).
• Chef only has 3 tables to work on. Probably would've been enough in the old days, but with table-cooking it gets rather annoying to organize your space and cook stuff, too.

Haven't played much yet, so I might encounter more, but I haven't ran into other major issues yet. I really like the Brig layout, and the positioning of the CMO's office, especially when compared to Box. It actually feels like the CMO is the boss, rather than some annoying shouty brat they stuffed into a corner of the department.

Braincake wrote:Noticed a few things while playing:

• Containment cameras appear to be missing or not functional; the monitor just gives an empty list.
• Power Storage is 3 tiles high, but has several static items blocking things, making it very hard to drag stuff around in there. Extending it by even one tile would help immensely (and it seems like enough empty space is available).
• No cigarette machine in Engineering (very important!).
• Chef only has 3 tables to work on. Probably would've been enough in the old days, but with table-cooking it gets rather annoying to organize your space and cook stuff, too.

Haven't played much yet, so I might encounter more, but I haven't ran into other major issues yet. I really like the Brig layout, and the positioning of the CMO's office, especially when compared to Box. It actually feels like the CMO is the boss, rather than some annoying shouty brat they stuffed into a corner of the department.

Cameras in general are broken on all maps, so yeah.
I can fiddle with the rest, though.

Anonus wrote:Cameras in general are broken on all maps, so yeah.

Ah, my bad. First couple of rounds I've played in a while, and hadn't checked on Box.

There is no gulag shuttle. This can hinder my antag abilities.

tedward1337 wrote:There is no gulag shuttle. This can hinder my antag abilities.

Intentional this is a feature this issue can be closed good luck finding space for it anyway

That's a lazy excuse. It still exists on the mining asteroid, and there's literally no way to get to and from it other than spacewalking.

I really like the bridge layout. The ring of computers and tables make for great firefights.

Xhuis wrote:That's a lazy excuse. It still exists on the mining asteroid, and there's literally no way to get to and from it other than spacewalking.

It is actually a feature because I hate the gulag and purposefully removed it from the map because it doesn't get used significantly except, sometimes, as a complex form of body disposal for someone who is stealthily murderboning and probably doesn't need more than a few lockers.

Everytime there's an error because someone didn't edit Dreamstation's z5 I'm going to frown with regret at you.

Jordie0608 wrote:Everytime there's an error because someone didn't edit Dreamstation's z5 I'm going to frown with regret at you.

IMPLYING PEOPLE DO STUFF TO MINING EVER

I don't think any of the power monitoring consoles are working properly. They need a knot under them linked to whatever powernet you want to be monitoring.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I don't think any of the power monitoring consoles are working properly. They need a knot under them linked to whatever powernet you want to be monitoring.

All of them have knots under them because I know how those work, did you check to see if there are knots because they've got knots in the same way as power monitoring consoles on box do.

update the map image you big gay baby.

AI's get this message

Motion alarm detected in EVA Storage! (<A HREF=?src=[mob_163];switchcamera=[icon-camera (NORTH)]>EVA Motion Sensor) pls post this in thread for me

TehPear wrote:AI's get this message

Motion alarm detected in EVA Storage! (<A HREF=?src=[mob_163];switchcamera=[icon-camera (NORTH)]>EVA Motion Sensor) pls post this in thread for me

That'll be fixed next update.
Fun mapping fact: this is one of the few times where 'generate from directions' can cause a map error because apparently camera jumping uses tags.

xenobio could use a coldroom for the console thingies and a disposal chute to space if it doesnt already have one

PKPenguin321 wrote:xenobio could use a coldroom for the console thingies and a disposal chute to space if it doesnt already have one

It has both of those already!

wow i am not smart

The plastic flaps into security are still an abomination.

I've warmed up to dream station, it's pretty good.

I really like it. New favorite map.

Good job.