/tg/Station 13

Hello there!

I decided to (once again) do something that I was warned would net regrettable results. Irregardless, I chose to do it anyways to see where you all ranked our maps. It's been two months since the last Map Survey Poll, and you can see those results here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31625 . This Numerical Rating poll ( https://sb.atlantaned.space/polls/254 ) asked the following question:

Please rate our current station maps on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest.

Each option had a small description: 1 being "Hate It.", 5 being "Meh.", and 10 being "Love It." .

I'm electing to do it every two months because each station map seems to get a conformational change every two months. So, here's what should have been on production (or merged during the change period) since the last one was concluded on April 27th, 2022 (changes to all maps not always covered). I'm also not most minor bug fixes, just larger features or other important changes (mileage varying):
However, I collected all of these a bit in advance... and I don't think they actually matter. Here's what's up. Last poll, we had a pretty decent 450 votes come out. However, this time, we now have 556 votes! How awful great is that! Thus, we'll have to make a short modification. Since the number of players who vote will vary time by time, we'll have to allocate the comparison based on the percentage of persons who voted, to ensure it's somewhat fair. I'm also throwing in the April 2022 vote results as a side-comparison, because I think everything's slightly more interesting this time around. Expand the spoiler to check the images out.
Now, the grand reveal: The average comparisons! This is what you have been waiting for! This is what it is all about! Let's see it!



How... interesting? The percentage comparisons to April 2022 are probably the much more interesting graphs. Hm. Hard crowd to please? Unchanging opinions? Locked in your opinions, fearing to try something new? Maybe we'll come back in 2 months and see if anything's changed? Maybe newer maps that haven't been inset for 2+years will be more polarizing and ever-changing? I don't know, I just like seeing data. You can access the raw CSV here, if you want to run your own statistics: https://file.house/IBgL.csv

Remember, if you want to see changes in the maps you play: it's up to you to make those changes. No one will do the changes for you the way you want them down-to-the-atom, it's up to you to put the work in. However, there's always others who try and make it the best they can out of pure satisfaction of the craft. Did any of you vote? Were the results shocking to any of you? Put your replies below.

(psst, small bonus poll results):

I'm honestly very surprised that TramStation didn't go up more, but somehow it has become even MORE polarizing than before?

Also, thrilled to see that all of our maps have over 100% summed vote rates in June, somehow

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:43 am I'm honestly very surprised that TramStation didn't go up more, but somehow it has become even MORE polarizing than before?

Also, thrilled to see that all of our maps have over 100% summed vote rates in June, somehow

oh god dammit i fucked something up gimme a second i'll update them all

I screwed up the calculation and assumed 450 people voted in June, the graphs are all now updated to be correct.

Nothing surprising. Meta and Delta are our best maps, Icebox is alright due to it being a good map made worse, and Kilo and Tram are polarizing or meh because they're gimmick maps.

I'd be curious if Tram is more enjoyable to players who mostly spend their time spectating than to players who actually play on it. On a side note, I'd personally love to remove Tram.

As expected, Icebox is the best gimmick map. I disagree with the result of Kilo being rated lower than Tram though, Kilo is at least genuinely good on lowpop, but Tram is always bad.

The only change Kilo needs is wiring changes, mice are WAY too devastating on Kilo.

anyone who voices a negative opinion on a map without giving context gets shot into the nearest star as punishment

The best maps are Kilo, Tram, and Icebox

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:27 pm anyone who voices a negative opinion on a map without giving context gets shot into the nearest star as punishment

Alright, you want context? You can have it. The reason Tram sucks is because of the fact that the layout of the station is intentionally made to suck to traverse without use of the tram. It's essentially one big linear hallway, meaning that getting from point a to point b is a much longer haul than on our non-gimmick maps, with the idea that the players have to utilize the tram in order to get around efficiently. However, while this sounds good on paper, the truth of it is that regardless of how fast the tram moves, the tram sucks to use. When attempting to use the tram:

- The tram will be constantly moving at almost all times, going to one of three random stopping points as people are constantly trying to call the tram. Often enough, you'll be waiting an annoyingly long time for the tram to stop at your position, or stop at the position that you want to go to once on board. While this doesn't always happen, it happens enough to make the tram annoying and unfun.

- The tram is one of the easiest to sabotage critical pieces of station infrastructure. Someone either sets up something awful on the tram to make using it painful or you wall off the entrances and make it so nobody can board. Then, since the tram moves so often, trying to remove the walls once this occurs is rather difficult without the right set of tools. It's like if you could sabotage the singular hallway in a station that is just one hallway by only modifying one small patch of it.

- While you have the option to use the underground area to avoid using the tram, the station is one giant linear hallway. It is intentionally made to suck traversing it in this manner, and while that's cool and all, that's not what I'm playing the game for.

Overall, TramStation is just annoying to play on compared to the non-gimmick maps. Why would I want to put up with everything I listed above when I could go to a more standard map instead? I just think what sets Tram apart from the more standard line-up of maps is nothing enjoyable for the end user.

It sounds like your main gripe with the map is that it is designed around using the train and you do not like the inconvenience of having to use the train to get around quickly. That is something I can't remedy.

btw if people are actively spam-calling/barricading the tram itself that is considered griefing if they're non-antag and that is punishable behavior (i WILL make the tram require a credit cost to own assistants who do this)

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:06 am
btw if people are actively spam-calling/barricading the tram itself that is considered griefing if they're non-antag and that is punishable behavior (i WILL make the tram require a credit cost to own assistants who do this)

It'd be funnier if the tram had a premium use fee if you use the call button again after being the last person to touch it. (So using it twice in a row+)

This way it prevents spam callers who are broke, but doesn't make it inoperable to the geniune broke player/golem/off-station humanoid who needs to use it to get where they want to go.

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:27 pm anyone who voices a negative opinion on a map without giving context gets shot into the nearest star as punishment

Not counting Z-level specific problems that aren't the map's fault:

The maintenance layout of Tram doesn't feel like it's really good for actually doing maintenance? It routes stuff kind of weirdly in ways that only become apparent when you look closely at it (the time I discovered arrivals was simply not linked to the greater station atmospherics at all, etc.). It's also not really great for moving between departments unseen as an antagonist, beyond just that you have to cross the central hallway to move between south and north departments - there's a lack of IceBox-style ladders to move up and down the maintenance wing without returning to the central areas.

Even so, now that the Tram is faster than just running, I still rate it very solidly above IceBox, which simply has an awful gimmick and several leftover problems from its archaic BoxStation roots, and above Kilo, which I hate the maintenance gimmick of and... I know some people like the worn down aesthetic, but I just don't.

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:06 am It sounds like your main gripe with the map is that it is designed around using the train and you do not like the inconvenience of having to use the train to get around quickly. That is something I can't remedy.

btw if people are actively spam-calling/barricading the tram itself that is considered griefing if they're non-antag and that is punishable behavior (i WILL make the tram require a credit cost to own assistants who do this)

I understand that too, it's not a fixable issue. That's why I want Tram removed. Understand that I'm probably the most "improve don't remove" guy you can find, but I don't think Tram's gimmick is remediable at all. You either love it or hate it, and as it is more people hate it.

My gripes with the other maps:

Kilo - One bomb and the entire station is gone. One hole and the entire station loses atmos. Too much visual clutter.

Icebox - The ice part of icebox just makes the map worse. Ice moon is just an underdeveloped lavaland explicitly designed to be more annoying for miners to do their job in. Breaches are also infinitely worse because falling into the snow level below will ALWAYS be an ass experience.

Suprise, surprise. People find a reason to hate on multi-z. I see a trend here.

Chadley wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 4:32 am Suprise, surprise. People find a reason to hate on multi-z. I see a trend here.

Yeah because it's fucking busted

Even if winning as Space Dragon by putting all of my portals suspended over Z-level pits is really funny for me, I acknowledge that the people I'm clapping PROBABLY don't find it as amusing as I do

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:07 am

MMMiracles wrote: ↑Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:06 am It sounds like your main gripe with the map is that it is designed around using the train and you do not like the inconvenience of having to use the train to get around quickly. That is something I can't remedy.

btw if people are actively spam-calling/barricading the tram itself that is considered griefing if they're non-antag and that is punishable behavior (i WILL make the tram require a credit cost to own assistants who do this)

I understand that too, it's not a fixable issue. That's why I want Tram removed. Understand that I'm probably the most "improve don't remove" guy you can find, but I don't think Tram's gimmick is remediable at all. You either love it or hate it, and as it is more people hate it.

my honest reaction

idk why people hate on tram so much, it's really good.

multi-Z doesnt work with lots of antags like blob and dragon which can essentially become unassailable and get free wins if they find the right spot

not to mention cult bases and stuff in little meteor inlets in undertram.

the problem with tram is you have to constantly move up and down ladders to traverse the entirety of the map which just becomes annoying and wrecks trying to travel with more than one person

tram is the best map in the game and it's not even close

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 4:07 am idk why people hate on tram so much, it's really good.

My favourite maps are always the ones to get hated on. Kilo, Tram, and Icebox are the best maps in rotation.