/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

EVA contains zero mats por que?

Also, fake toolbelt spotted in EVA , CE's door, not command colored

We had a full round run very well, not sure of latency stats. That'll be MSO.

From Maintainerbus, this is really good!

Not gonna lie most of my North Star hype did come from loving star trek, but when I did play it back on its original fork I. Was very very lost and I didn't get it at all.

I recently finally managed to play a round with it on Manuel and, MAN do I fucking ADORE This map. It does have its quirks, some rooms don't feel fully converted to TG code, like medical having many nooks and crannies that dont make much sense, but due to most of the spaces being together AND connected, getting around is not as much as a pain as I thought it'd be! Little things, like the floors being named on the elevators and the new signage makes it so that knowing where you are is MUCH easier, and it feels very nice to traverse.
I played as a paramedic on that round, which some people said would be hard because finding bodies would be a pain, but it wasn't at all. The area names are very descryptive, so by taking a quick glimpze over by the suit sensors console you can see which floor they're in, and once you go down there its as easy as to follow your pinpointer, and there'll likely be a path that takes you exactly where you go, and that you'll have full access for it.

I really, really really love this map and I hope that it gets added so that I can play this on rotation

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:02 am Not gonna lie most of my North Star hype did come from loving star trek, but when I did play it back on its original fork I. Was very very lost and I didn't get it at all.

I recently finally managed to play a round with it on Manuel and, MAN do I fucking ADORE This map. It does have its quirks, some rooms don't feel fully converted to TG code, like medical having many nooks and crannies that dont make much sense, but due to most of the spaces being together AND connected, getting around is not as much as a pain as I thought it'd be! Little things, like the floors being named on the elevators and the new signage makes it so that knowing where you are is MUCH easier, and it feels very nice to traverse.
I played as a paramedic on that round, which some people said would be hard because finding bodies would be a pain, but it wasn't at all. The area names are very descryptive, so by taking a quick glimpze over by the suit sensors console you can see which floor they're in, and once you go down there its as easy as to follow your pinpointer, and there'll likely be a path that takes you exactly where you go, and that you'll have full access for it.

I really, really really love this map and I hope that it gets added so that I can play this on rotation

Firstly, thank you so much for consistently being on this thread and being a hype-person for the project. It's great to see someone with a passion for the North Star like mine, and you've been great to see post. I'm glad you have FINALLY had the chance to give it a shot.

In previous mapping projects I've always wanted to experiment with the typical "medbay" setup in an attempt to influence players to do things differently. The North Star is a mild compromise of that, where I've kept a treatment room but prioritized fluff with well-equipped surgical suites and a mental health ward / asylum where prisoners can spawn, giving the psychologist some more love and roleplay content.

Could you elaborate on the issues you had with medical? I'd love to hear your thoughts and see what I can do.

I missed the test yesterday, but I'm also super excited about the map. I was really sad when it got shelved, but I hope it'll have another chance. I'm just absolutely bad at showing emotion through text.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:46 pm I missed the test yesterday, but I'm also super excited about the map. I was really sad when it got shelved, but I hope it'll have another chance. I'm just absolutely bad at showing emotion through text.

It's still testmerged on Manuel right now!

Aaaand there goes the testmerge because of april fools. It's fine, we'll just get it back up tomorrow.

Aeri wrote: ↑Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:42 pm EVA contains zero mats por que?

Also, fake toolbelt spotted in EVA , CE's door, not command colored

EVA got a minor update, fixed

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:44 pm Could you elaborate on the issues you had with medical? I'd love to hear your thoughts and see what I can do.

The little medical surgery rooms are lovely and excellent, I adore them, but as a Paramedic you can't enter them at all, which makes sense paramedics don't have surgery access. Problem is, the only blood crates and blood dispensers are exlcusively inside these surgery rooms, so if you have a patient on the main healing atrium thingie and you have to give them blood, you can't access it.
Also, since these surgery rooms are so good, most doctors go heal their patients there, and when they need help, as a paramedic you just cant enter. I dont think this is a problem in like, Meta or Delta because the best place to heal is in the main place thingie, where parameds have access.

Another thing I noticed was healed pantients coming out of the surgery rooms and having no idea where to leave. Maybe a little line heading towards the exit would help with that.

The healing atrium itselfs feels very big and empty, in the original fork that was the storage room of sorts, so in this version it looks like fastly repurposed into the healing atrium and it doesn't feel right, maybe putting some blood dispensers or more decorations or maybe filling up the tables a bit more would make it feel more natural, maybe making the room smaller and making the maint next to it bigger? idk

Another thing that isn't a complaint, it'd be cool if the morgue had a single door leading from the medical lobby to it, maybe by moving its APC down a tile and putting it where the APC was. That way chefs can come and go for meat and stuff.

That's about it!

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:52 pm The little medical surgery rooms are lovely and excellent, I adore them, but as a Paramedic you can't enter them at all, which makes sense paramedics don't have surgery access. Problem is, the only blood crates and blood dispensers are exlcusively inside these surgery rooms, so if you have a patient on the main healing atrium thingie and you have to give them blood, you can't access it.
Also, since these surgery rooms are so good, most doctors go heal their patients there, and when they need help, as a paramedic you just cant enter. I dont think this is a problem in like, Meta or Delta because the best place to heal is in the main place thingie, where parameds have access.

Another thing I noticed was healed pantients coming out of the surgery rooms and having no idea where to leave. Maybe a little line heading towards the exit would help with that.

The healing atrium itselfs feels very big and empty, in the original fork that was the storage room of sorts, so in this version it looks like fastly repurposed into the healing atrium and it doesn't feel right, maybe putting some blood dispensers or more decorations or maybe filling up the tables a bit more would make it feel more natural, maybe making the room smaller and making the maint next to it bigger? idk

Another thing that isn't a complaint, it'd be cool if the morgue had a single door leading from the medical lobby to it, maybe by moving its APC down a tile and putting it where the APC was. That way chefs can come and go for meat and stuff.

That's about it!

The medical big treatment center was a design choice I absolutely despised making. I'd much rather keep the original intent of three surgery rooms. However, it seemed like something that would get scrutinized to the point of insanity so I reluctantly added it. I'm glad people are actually using the surgical rooms though, which is a huge relief for me!

I think a rework of medbay is in order at some point in the near future.

It has been reported the botany trays aren't wrenched.

carshalash wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:49 am It has been reported the botany trays aren't wrenched.

Should be fixed now.

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:52 pm
The little medical surgery rooms are lovely and excellent, I adore them, but as a Paramedic you can't enter them at all, which makes sense paramedics don't have surgery access. Problem is, the only blood crates and blood dispensers are exlcusively inside these surgery rooms, so if you have a patient on the main healing atrium thingie and you have to give them blood, you can't access it.
Also, since these surgery rooms are so good, most doctors go heal their patients there, and when they need help, as a paramedic you just cant enter. I dont think this is a problem in like, Meta or Delta because the best place to heal is in the main place thingie, where parameds have access.

Another thing I noticed was healed pantients coming out of the surgery rooms and having no idea where to leave. Maybe a little line heading towards the exit would help with that.

The healing atrium itselfs feels very big and empty, in the original fork that was the storage room of sorts, so in this version it looks like fastly repurposed into the healing atrium and it doesn't feel right, maybe putting some blood dispensers or more decorations or maybe filling up the tables a bit more would make it feel more natural, maybe making the room smaller and making the maint next to it bigger? idk

Another thing that isn't a complaint, it'd be cool if the morgue had a single door leading from the medical lobby to it, maybe by moving its APC down a tile and putting it where the APC was. That way chefs can come and go for meat and stuff.

That's about it!

For now, I've chosen to add some decals leading from medical to the exit. I put some blood in the treatment room, as well as added some more stuff for fluff and crunch alike. Hopefully this should help resolve some issues you had with medical?

Keeping progress reports in here, we had a terry test and I managed to snag a few annoying map errors and inconsistencies. There's ALWAYS SOMETHING ELSE TO DO.

Pumpkin0 has been so kind as to give unto me two fantastic eggs mining shuttles.

The deisgn of the CE office is really good, its designed almost like a help desk. It is great. My favourite CE office so far. There is one improvement that I think would make it better, and that is making the helpdesk portion available to a corridor instead of the SMES room. Either the engineering corridoor or the main corridor. Also make it so crew members an walk in to the desk portion of it (if it is not possible already). This would allow CE's to use this cool map feature more and interact with crew that is nearby. right now the SMES room hides it. Who goes into the SMES room anyway?
(EDIT: I also remember there being windoors, but its not there in the image, dont make it accessable without adding windoors of course!)

Cheshify wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:54 am Pumpkin0 has been so kind as to give unto me two fantastic eggs mining shuttles.

That second shuttle almost for sure does not need a light bar

too big im lost =(

kopoba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:44 am too big im lost =(

Skill issue, its pretty clear where every department is

kopoba wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:44 am too big im lost =(

If you're getting lost, try paying attention to floor and wall decals! The station is color coded to get you to all major departments, as well as the station having a functioning navigation system in your hotbar!

TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:19 am
That second shuttle almost for sure does not need a light bar

The Light Bar Has Been Banished To Where It Shall No Longer Be Seen By Man Again

The trek uniforms now have armor values I can't wait for everyone to freak out over a 5% damage reduction and complain about balance

And (what I think is finally) bots have nav beacons.

I honestly think that's everything I want to do for now. Requested maptainer review and hopefully we can merge soon.

Northbros.......... Starsisters.............. we're so close...................

We lost some good stuff today northbros and starsisters. We won't be getting the uniforms. 2:1 headcoder ruling. I'm hoping we can keep the framework for innate station traits if there's other things I or other mappers want.

I have been informed that I cannot keep the framework.

If we can't have the uniforms to spawn with, just scatter a bunch around the departments for people to grab, and then they can still get them :^)

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:14 am We lost some good stuff today northbros and starsisters. We won't be getting the uniforms. 2:1 headcoder ruling. I'm hoping we can keep the framework for innate station traits if there's other things I or other mappers want.

boy does this make me mad, I'd be ok with it if they gave a valid reason for it but it just boils down to "adding new stuff adds more work!!" (which feels absurd because every single pr ever made has the same problem then) and "the uniforms aren't consistent" which. ok fair, fine. Though if its the latter then maybe they'd be more on board if the ship uniforms were less star-treky and more their own thing, I really like the idea of stations having one uniform and ships having another.

I'm just putting this in the open because I need to air my thoughts. The North Star is both a passion and art project to me. 8~ months ago when all I had was the copy of a map that didn't fit for TG (on top of another 6 months of coordinating a team to make the thing, fixing numerous map errors, and other kinds of maintenance), I took a chance and spent a lot of time trying to update it. In that time, I found that I could fashion an experience that I thought was really fun and unique.

The PR went up, and when it didn't perform to the standard I wanted it to, I closed it down. What I care about is the authenticity of the experience, and the quality of it. The uniforms are a tiny little funny hee hoo star trek reference, but I do mean it when I say that they both provide an immediate visual difference beyond map layout, and the subtext of being assigned to a ship exploring the stars.

I'm kind of just disappointed that there couldn't be compromise, sad how it turned out, and just overall not sure if I want to keep the map going without it being what I want it to be. Sorry for being melodramatic, I'm not closing the PR.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:34 am I'm kind of just disappointed that there couldn't be compromise, sad how it turned out, and just overall not sure if I want to keep the map going without it being what I want it to be. Sorry for being melodramatic, I'm not closing the PR.

Please don't be discouraged by some stupid cloth sprites, you've made an ENTIRE MAP for god's sakes, a GOOD entire map that people REALLY WANT TO PLAY ON!! I do agree that losing the trek suits today sucks but you can always publish more PRs that add that distinct map feeling without needing the suits. Take this as a motivator to do something cooler than varying jumpsuits if anything else, like a different moving space background, a control console, missions, cooler stuff!!

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:17 am If we can't have the uniforms to spawn with, just scatter a bunch around the departments for people to grab, and then they can still get them :^)

you know we can read right?

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:54 am you know we can read right?

You say this as if you can't already right now on any map go into your locker as a head or into the locker room as a non-head and get outfits and suits that clash with our art-style entirely for free

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:54 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:17 am If we can't have the uniforms to spawn with, just scatter a bunch around the departments for people to grab, and then they can still get them :^)

you know we can read right?

Yeah, but I also don't think it's a problem. Your issue wasn't with people having the outfits, your issue was you don't want stations to have unique uniforms shift-start.

But having them just lying around lets people choose, and is no different from any other map that has clothing just lying around (All of them). Are you going to remove the Winter Coats from Ice Box?

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:25 am Are you going to remove the Winter Coats from Ice Box?

No cuz they actually have a mechanical use

Is the map gonna get a real flavoured name? Right now it only shows up as "NorthStar" while other maps are like "Box Station". It sticks out currently
My guess would be Exploratory Vessel "North Star"

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:54 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:17 am If we can't have the uniforms to spawn with, just scatter a bunch around the departments for people to grab, and then they can still get them :^)

you know we can read right?

It's like i dopn't even know you anymore, stepping in to kill something as innocent as star trek clothes... smh... and we'll nmeed that station trait framework one day

poor star trekkie uniforms, hoping they can be placed in the lockers or scattered around somehow becasue they looked cool and nothing else uses them apart from like one holodeck thing

So. Regarding the uniforms. I won't be sneakily adding them around the station or finding a way to subvert headcoder rulings (There are like, a few in the teleporter room but they're just the command subtypes and it really doesn't matter since they've been around forever)

Anyways. I'm going to add the disclaimer that the PR isn't what I initially intend and there has been intervention preventing the vision for the map for being complete, and continue with the project. If there's any way to convince the headcoders to eventually overrule their decisions on this, it's showing the map off, getting it into the code, and having people enjoy it for what it's worth, even if it's not up to the standards for visuals that I want.

I do need to say again that this is incredibly disappointing that there wasn't even discussion of compromise.

the headcoders have decent enough reason to be afraid of what they call sprite bloat, but i call sprite matrix hell, and thats the for every x do y. (matrix in this case referring to matrix math, not the movie)

I remember how contentious fat sprite removal was, but every outfit having to have two variations wasn't scaleable.

I personally think this might be a bit of a false positive trigger on their part, and also something solvable by gags anyways. (since most uniform variations for jobs boiled down to a different color, both the normal and fleet style uniforms could be (mostly) converted to 1 sprite each than any changes in a department's style or addition of a department need not involve editing any sprites, just a hex code.) but i understand their concern.

I do encourage every other player/coder/spriter/mapper besides chesh to try to add ways to get those uniforms until you wear them down.

In a hypothetical PR, it would be interesting if the Exploratory uniforms were made distinctly TG, a unique sprite taking cues from classic sci-fi shows, with departmental variations done entirely via GAGs. That way we'd have a consistent (6x1) new uniform to maintain without the (6x4) options that were possible with the initial concept.

That's one of the compromises I was originally comfortable with, but I'll accept the ruling.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:00 pm I do encourage every other player/coder/spriter/mapper besides chesh to try to add ways to get those uniforms until you wear them down.

It'd be good to put them in costume vendors, i might have a look at this when im back from being away in a couple days

If you want star trek uniforms have the courage to submit them as the actual uniform for the crew instead of being a coward about it.

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:21 pm If you want star trek uniforms have the courage to submit them as the actual uniform for the crew instead of being a coward about it.

Yeah not interested in that mindset. I don't know why you're calling me a coward? I don't want them on every station, just this exploratory vessel. I feel like you didn't really ready the reasoning I put in the PR body and just assumed why I wanted a different set of uniforms.

Outfit drama aside, we're closer than ever. We have no errors or trash files, no blocks from headcoders, multiple peer reviews, most of the content I want, server software that can actually run it... We'll be exploring the stars soon I hope!

The Northbros and the Starsisters WILL be on the North Star in April 2023

We'll be with the stars any second now...

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 11:08 pm

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:21 pm If you want star trek uniforms have the courage to submit them as the actual uniform for the crew instead of being a coward about it.

Yeah not interested in that mindset. I don't know why you're calling me a coward? I don't want them on every station, just this exploratory vessel. I feel like you didn't really ready the reasoning I put in the PR body and just assumed why I wanted a different set of uniforms.

I'm not talking to you

So I was watching the Cult test on Northstar.

I think the design itself is really good, except for the design philosophy around the maint.

The maint is huge, and really interesting, as a counter point it also has persistent insta-kill threats like pumped up maint grilles and mines, these are randomly placed so even crew familiar with the station and equipped with insuls would find clearing these threats difficult, and that's just the grilles. For many roles maint isn't an optional threat like lavaland, due to specific antags Sec, paramedics and engineers going into maint will be mandatory.

A few issues with this is:

1: Insta-kill threats remove a lot of player agency and enjoyment, it doesn't give the player the option to learn and adapt-in round. Because maint is so large and dangerous the chances of them being found is smaller too, resulting in more players being effectively round-removed by talking the wrong step and dying. Not fun. A number of players seem to die from maint, think chasms in lavaland but in narrow hallways. Learning how to navigate maint at all safely will take many rounds of insta-death and frustration. Insuls help, but there are also land mines and the like.

2: These instakill threats don't affect things like a blob, which is already absurdly strong on this station.

3: These instakill threats can remove antags (which commonly use maint) before they can even add conflict to the station

4: These insta-kill threats stop security and players from effectively engaging any threat within maint (especially a blob or cult)

5: Some of these traps will catch multiple players (I saw a grille at a corner killed two different players due to pathing)

The philosphy around maint seems to be that it needs to be dangerous if its going to be as strong as it is, however the way these dangers are implemented is more focussed on instantly killing the player for a mistake, than to give them a challenging in-round experience.

My advice is to reduce the lethality of these threats, or to replace the insta-kill threats with mobs, atmospheric threats, one-time explosives and other hazards so that players can interact with and face these challenges in a more enjoyable manner. Current philosophy of navigate it perfectly or instantly die greatly detracts from a round making it less about player interaction and more about players overcoming the environment. (which is what lavaland and exploration is for, and they do it far better)