/tg/Station 13

Hey there, I always want to be improving projects & offering a place for others to provide constructive criticism so I can continue to improve the map. The old thread is over 200 posts long so maybe linking a new fresh feedback thread could get more gears turning.

Here's the original PR!

Here's an up-to-date webmap!

Please, constructive criticism on things I can actually change. "The Map Lags" or "I don't like multiz" don't help me improve this.

I'm a Known Northstar Lover so I don't have a lot to say, I do have two small comments though.

I usually play robo, and for a job so intertwined with science having to go back and forth between robotics and science gets old. Fast. Also since it's basically hidden in a nook of the map not many people visit you barely get any traffic, which is such a shame.

I get maintenence is supposed to be confusing and dangerous, and I'm all for it, but the maintenence tunnels near important points of interest, like science and command/security, come off less as confusing or dangerous and more annoying, simply because you get locked off constantly with either doors dividing maintenence or just dead ends. I'd much rather have pits that make me drop down 4 levels than that

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:31 pm I'm a Known Northstar Lover so I don't have a lot to say, I do have two small comments though.

I usually play robo, and for a job so intertwined with science having to go back and forth between robotics and science gets old. Fast. Also since it's basically hidden in a nook of the map not many people visit you barely get any traffic, which is such a shame.

I get maintenence is supposed to be confusing and dangerous, and I'm all for it, but the maintenence tunnels near important points of interest, like science and command/security, come off less as confusing or dangerous and more annoying, simply because you get locked off constantly with either doors dividing maintenence or just dead ends. I'd much rather have pits that make me drop down 4 levels than that

Maybe I should just set up a quantum thing in robotics roundstart between it and sci. I really don't want to move it since I love giving robotics their own space and increased access to the SAT. Maybe I could make it more visible somehow? Would love ideas.

As for maint, I'm happy to change things around. Where exactly are those weird breaks of flow that you've noted?

A quantum thingy is definitely sciency (although higher tech than we usually start ss13) but I am not going to lie... I am always partial to the old Personal Transport Disposals Chute
Maybe that's more of a Birdshot thing than Northstar though

Since the escape shuttle now has 8 ports for escape pods, why not add another escape pod bank or disperse some escape pods across maints?

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:06 am A quantum thingy is definitely sciency (although higher tech than we usually start ss13) but I am not going to lie... I am always partial to the old Personal Transport Disposals Chute
Maybe that's more of a Birdshot thing than Northstar though

The teleporters fit in with the ship feel, very star trek y'know? Besides Cere used to have like 10 of them roundstart.

zergking wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:48 pm Since the escape shuttle now has 8 ports for escape pods, why not add another escape pod bank or disperse some escape pods across maints?

Good idea, can you think of a good place to add them?

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:06 am

zergking wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:48 pm Since the escape shuttle now has 8 ports for escape pods, why not add another escape pod bank or disperse some escape pods across maints?

Good idea, can you think of a good place to add them?

Depends. If you want to do another bank like you have currently, somewhere on the security/command deck would be prudent IMO (Evac important bridge personnel first.) I would suggest personally spreading the four remaining pods between medical, science, the bridge, and security-so each department has a way of escape. Coincidentally, each deck will have a pod too.
Alternatively, you could modify the abandoned hanger bays to have the pods in them, maybe a uniquely shaped pod to represent and old fighter that gets impromptued as a pod

zergking wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:51 am

Cheshify wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 6:06 am

zergking wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:48 pm Since the escape shuttle now has 8 ports for escape pods, why not add another escape pod bank or disperse some escape pods across maints?

Good idea, can you think of a good place to add them?

Depends. If you want to do another bank like you have currently, somewhere on the security/command deck would be prudent IMO (Evac important bridge personnel first.) I would suggest personally spreading the four remaining pods between medical, science, the bridge, and security-so each department has a way of escape. Coincidentally, each deck will have a pod too.
Alternatively, you could modify the abandoned hanger bays to have the pods in them, maybe a uniquely shaped pod to represent and old fighter that gets impromptued as a pod

That sounds cool as hell, and it's getting the creative brain juice flowing. I may take a crack at this when I'm done doing some QOL maintenance on it.

Okay, hear me out. What if you could repair the fighter in the abandoned hangar bay? You could add unique new parts for the consoles and hide them around maintenance, under tiles, in walled off abandoned areas, etc. Players will have to find these, and jam them into the nav and shuttle consoles on the abandoned fighter, and they will magically become fully operational, letting you go out and explore space in your extremely small ship. Bonus points if the parts are in random set possible locations each round.

Xkallubar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:02 pm Okay, hear me out. What if you could repair the fighter in the abandoned hangar bay? You could add unique new parts for the consoles and hide them around maintenance, under tiles, in walled off abandoned areas, etc. Players will have to find these, and jam them into the nav and shuttle consoles on the abandoned fighter, and they will magically become fully operational, letting you go out and explore space in your extremely small ship. Bonus points if the parts are in random set possible locations each round.

I'm only worried that this would require code, and we're currently on a feature freeze.

its my favorite station but i really dang hate when blobs are on it!

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 11:14 pm its my favorite station but i really dang hate when blobs are on it!

Do you have any ideas on how we could solve this?

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 6:17 pm Maybe I should just set up a quantum thing in robotics roundstart between it and sci. I really don't want to move it since I love giving robotics their own space and increased access to the SAT. Maybe I could make it more visible somehow? Would love ideas.

Maybe don't move robotics itself, but move the rooms around it? Right now there isn't much reason to go into that nook of the station at all, all there is there is a garden which leads to stairs which lead to the library (none of these places usually attract people) and an entrance to the ai sat, when people (from what i've seen) usually use the one in the 4th floor (I dont blame them, in any other map the entrance to the sat is in or near command, no wonder people are going to look in there). Putting a more important room right where the garden is now would help. Maybe tool storage or a miniature version of it? It'd probably make it stand out, as it is right now I cant remember from the top of my head where tool storage is.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2024 6:17 pm As for maint, I'm happy to change things around. Where exactly are those weird breaks of flow that you've noted?

I usually find them in the 3rd/4th floor, specifically when playing as a paramedic that is trying to retrieve a body in xenobio/toxins. I follow my pinpointer signal up until I get to a bit with a set of stairs going up to the 4th floor, which lead to a hallway, which lead back down to the 3rd floor. Those stairs confuse the hell out of me, when on different floors you lose your pinpointer signal, and due to where xenobio is I go up the stairs with the pointer pointing towards northeast, then when i go down the stairs its pointing northwest, so I know that the body is north of those stairs but its. in the floor below. but there is no way to head back down while going north when in that catwalk, and there are no alternative paths to go north in that bit, since thats where the RD office is.
Now, i might be a bit very stupid, but this MAN has this tripped me up so many times. the big issue is trying to find out when maintenence ends and science begins, and when maintenence ends and SPACE begins. It'd be helpful to have some sort of decals on the floor or a placque on the wall saying "hey dipshit, science is behind this door" (im the dipshit).
Honestly I thought it was a bigger issue but when i looked at the map it seemed like areally sensible layout decision so idk, i really truly do get constantly lost in that bit

I feel like the map really does not use multi-Z in a good or satisfying way.

The map suffers from a lack of verticality - it has 4 floors, yes, but it feels more like 4 hallways you teleport between with elevators than a real place with height. For example, in floor 1 you have cargo and directly above it in floor 2, you have the bulk of sci. That's, really boring and not using multi-Z to its full potential.

What if you cut Cargo in half, placing the mining section and the QM office on floor 2, and the sci stuff dislodged go to where the mining areas were? The total area of Cargo and Sci didn't change, they just were distributed differently between two Z-levels. Not only would this make the departments more dynamic and help with a sense of verticality but also it'd help with sense of directions - now, you can access Sci or Cargo from two different spots rather than just one, making the flow of people more dynamic and easier to stumble your way into where you want to go, as there's now two opening to those departments in two different floors.

This is the only map where the chaplain gets no smoke spellbook.

As an engineer, I never go into maints other than to get into the back side of toxins, to fix a breach, or to go to the gravgen.

Maints do not give any real shortcuts. The fastest way between departments is the hallways, each, and every time. It's basically not possible to have maints shortcuts to places. However, I do like how it is fast to get to places in general for a high pop map because of how efficient the corridors and z levels are.
Because of its size, adding reasons to go into maints for engineers such as adding places for rats to eat cables will be a HUGE pain. Searching 4 whole z levels of a full sized maints is a lot. This is also why Blobs are so poweful here. There is simply too many places to check.

I do like this map for high pop, however engineering's lobby is far too small for a high pop map in my opinion. There is no real spot to relax and talk between engi members, so engineering crews is then forced to walk to the other size of the station and up 3 z levels to go to the bar or kitchen if they want to talk in a non cramped space. There also not enough engineering lockers in the locker area. There is lots of space south to expand it, so it should not be too difficult to change.

By the way i love the SM setup do not change it. I do not care what other people say. I can set it up faster than other stations because no pumps need to be replaced, and putting on the spacesuit outside the door is not hard at all to go and turn on the emitters. It also allows for wonderful emitter art as can be been in my signature. I do wish there was cameras for the AI to see the emitters, though. Would be helpful in delam situations, and will allow for people that hate space a way to get them turned on without having to go out there.

Constellado wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:56 am As an engineer, I never go into maints other than to get into the back side of toxins, to fix a breach, or to go to the gravgen.

Maints do not give any real shortcuts. The fastest way between departments is the hallways, each, and every time. It's basically not possible to have maints shortcuts to places. However, I do like how it is fast to get to places in general for a high pop map because of how efficient the corridors and z levels are.
Because of its size, adding reasons to go into maints for engineers such as adding places for rats to eat cables will be a HUGE pain. Searching 4 whole z levels of a full sized maints is a lot. This is also why Blobs are so poweful here. There is simply too many places to check.

I do like this map for high pop, however engineering's lobby is far too small for a high pop map in my opinion. There is no real spot to relax and talk between engi members, so engineering crews is then forced to walk to the other size of the station and up 3 z levels to go to the bar or kitchen if they want to talk in a non cramped space. There also not enough engineering lockers in the locker area. There is lots of space south to expand it, so it should not be too difficult to change.

By the way i love the SM setup do not change it. I do not care what other people say. I can set it up faster than other stations because no pumps need to be replaced, and putting on the spacesuit outside the door is not hard at all to go and turn on the emitters. It also allows for wonderful emitter art as can be been in my signature. I do wish there was cameras for the AI to see the emitters, though. Would be helpful in delam situations, and will allow for people that hate space a way to get them turned on without having to go out there.

The idea with the engineering lobby being small is to force engies to spend less time in engineering outside of stocking up supplies. They should be out on the station, building shit in the many available places to build. I don't intend on adding places for rats to spawn in maint because it's just not the style I like. The intent of maint is moreso a very interconnected and secretive place for projects & antaggery. The main selling point is that you can go to any part of maint from any part of maint without being visible on a security camera or going into a main hall.

Honestly maybe security should just have better gear if they're expected to tackle antags in there.

Xkallubar wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:06 am This is the only map where the chaplain gets no smoke spellbook.

Fixing this

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:03 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 11:14 pm its my favorite station but i really dang hate when blobs are on it!

Do you have any ideas on how we could solve this?

remove blobs from the game!

I'm unsure if this is still the case but it seems like the disposal system in cargo is partially broken broken. Some tagged packages end up in the bitrunner room for whatever reason. Two days ago I tried sending a coffeemaker to the HOP's office via disposals and it ended up in the bitrunner den. Sorry, I forgot to take pictures.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:51 am I'm unsure if this is still the case but it seems like the disposal system in cargo is partially broken broken. Some tagged packages end up in the bitrunner room for whatever reason. Two days ago I tried sending a coffeemaker to the HOP's office via disposals and it ended up in the bitrunner den. Sorry, I forgot to take pictures.

It is, it's being fixed in the new PR I am procrastinating on

my feedback is removing the population lock on it, making it votable at any population.

Other than that, promising map.

Longestarmlonglaw wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 2:41 am my feedback is removing the population lock on it, making it votable at any population.

Other than that, promising map.

Lowpop northstar is a ghost town. Northstar only really works on highpop.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:03 pm It is, it's being fixed in the new PR I am procrastinating on

Entirely relatable. On the other hand Northstar should circulate it's trash via bluespace-hyperspace. I love this map.

Twice now on northstar after returning to the ship from lavaland as a cyborg everything has gone almost completely see-through and had very limited interaction, as seen here. I like the idea but two of the three times the map's come up while I've been playing I've had this happen and it makes it kind of hard to enjoy it.

Kitfox wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:31 pm Twice now on northstar after returning to the ship from lavaland as a cyborg everything has gone almost completely see-through and had very limited interaction, as seen here. I like the idea but two of the three times the map's come up while I've been playing I've had this happen and it makes it kind of hard to enjoy it.

This isn't an issue with the map, but with multiz code. I am afraid I cannot do anything to fix this.

Ah, I'd only seen it crop up on Northstar so I was wondering if it was directly related to the map. It sucks cause I really like the idea but I suppose I'll just try to avoid mining whenever it's on rotation, maybe cover the entire roof of the ship in solar panels instead.

New PR up containing plenty of fixes from feedback in this thread!

List of all changes:

The internals of maintenance needs to be mostly public access like every other map, once you get into maintenance you can go anywhere else in that section of maintenance aside from a select few rooms that are meant for engineers.

Having to hack literally every single airlock vs just one airlock to get into maintenance is a big fucking deal for antags that use maintenance. I dont care if you section off a few portions of maint so there is an access requirement between large sections but im not playing a game of hack 20 airlocks.


Also maintenance airlocks directly connected to a department should have that department as granted access, a scientist should be able to go into toxins or xenobio maintenance just like every other map. Cytology was literally implemented into the game with the fundamental rule that scientists can at least access their own maintenance tunnels.

Good feedback, will try to add it to a future PR

Cheisfy, the map is bad because i cant play it because of population locks, remove it and its gucci.

I miss the star trek uniforms :(

needs odst pods and more guns

Please consider adding three cameras. One to the main hall faced at the gateway. Another with vision on the doors before the ordnance lab. For the 3rd one, in the telecomms room so that it is possible to see both of the inner doors. I often find myself having to tell people “sorry no cam view there” as the AI

This has just struck me, but why was Northstar made to be the only map where fore/aft/port/starboard don't match with north/south/west/east directions? Obviously that cant be changed now but maybe thats why people get lost so much?

It's because the front of the ship is in the "West" part of the station. Most of our stations don't even have a front so which part is Port can be totally arbitrary.
As to why it is oriented this way, it is because you can see more tiles horizontally than vertically. If you rotated the station 90 degrees, the sightlines would be worse than they are with the current orientation.

It feels like community (and me) doesn't like multi-Z stations unless station itself is contained only on two layers (ice box, tram). It's too enormous map for TG, even if there are 80+ players (that only 2/3 will play on this map instead of observing in the best scenario). People like compact, mobile, functional and comfortable maps.

So the issues: there are elevators, nobody uses them and they're slow. 1/4 of the map is dorms - the area nobody visits. Xenobiology somehow is the smallest out of every map. A lot of liminal spaces like science's open areas with access for everyone and huge long tables everywhere that just irritate players. Having plasmaflood on 4 Z-level map is just unplayable not just because of lags but the mapmaker decision where you can move down/up and where it's not possible. Maints are massive and take too much space for them (imho). Having emmiters in space is good looking idea, but in practice we have non-spaceproof engi flying around them because no sane person will spend time every time on this map changing MODs just for emitters. Map is too big - people need more time to get to the places they want - you can cry in radio for help but nobody could catch you alive because it takes too much time moving between floors and departments and there are too many sneaky places (not mentioning that playing contractor or heretic is so painful there because of layout).

It's a good map for MRP-HRP server with 140+ pop, but not for fast-paced server like TG

The only fun i had was abusing trap doors, I think maps that heavily use multiple z levels are held back by limited mechanics that are actually made for them and the fact that they tend to break alot of existing mechanics or make them alot less effective.

Also an issue i found with northstar specifically is that it takes alot of effort to retrofit the rooms that were heavily trashed, i understand that there was a clear design purpose to make rooms in maintenance hard to develop because there is just so many rooms, but this doesn't really hurt antagonists that only care about moving into those rooms (heretic/cult) and instead just hurts anyone building regular machines in them.


Also the ai apc needs to be taken off of the exterior wall and put next to the ai if that wasnt done already.

I'm out of college and now (slowly) working on North Star 2, that's the update!

Map so good it's getting a sequel

do you still intend to have as many z-levels on the next iteration?

Bepis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 5:14 am do you still intend to have as many z-levels on the next iteration?

I want more, but I'm kind of forced to cut down to 3 until byond/whatever can reasonably handle 4+ zs

It's unfortunate but probably the best case scenario for the map.

Please don't trim down the kitchen/restaurant area, I love how open it is and the server's area in the upper right of the floor is executed well. If people actually played out hibachi, I'd die happy. Conceptually I think your kitchen is the best one of the current rotation.

I want to design things around service being more open and central, so the kitchen's feel is likely going to stay.

this might sound embarassing but I only realised Northstar has a massive service department just now when i looked it up on the webmap. I dont think i ever go there, or really to the entire zlevel.