Cerestation (It's dead, Jim)

Mapping Ideas and Sprite Galleries

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Compress CereStation?

Squish the department asteroids together a lot more, too spaced out.
31
43%
Squish the department asteroids together a bit more.
18
25%
Leave as is.
20
28%
Abstain.
3
4%
 
Total votes : 72

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Iatots » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:53 pm #282394

Played a couple rounds today.
Engineers still need insulated gloves.
There are some wall beneath a pair of airlocks leading to arrivals maintenance.
There is another airlock walled off like this around medbay (sorry can't be more specific).
One of the bridges is missing a catwalk tile next to an airlock (again sorry but I forgot where, maybe west of medbay?).



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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby danno » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:20 pm #283394

having all head offices on the bridge is terrible
Hornygranny wrote:wtf i like danno now

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I don't even play ss13 anymore, pretty much due to dannos stupid bullshit

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Siserith » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:13 am #283745

in toxins, the bottom left and bottom right mixer pipes are connected to the waste loop

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Qbopper » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:55 pm #283825

Image

is this a case of the ol' "I copied a room from box to copy+paste shit and forgot to delete it when I was done"?
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:06 pm #283858

Yeah. I try to make sure the equipment is equal across all maps, so I typically throw a copied room in empty space and use it as reference when I rebuild my own variant. There's already a PR that's been up for a few days that addressees that fuck up.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:12 pm #283859

Yes i had a bad first impression of this too.

Anybody with a toolbox can destroy the bridges by simply dismantling and then de-pressurise the entire area, the bridges are very shoddy in design and would probably benefit from unique assets or some kind of new material construction (titanium bridge casing?) the camera on the bridges is completely unrealistic and unrecreatable, atleast put a wall somewhere in the bridge if you are going to run a camera over it & simulate the bridges as rooms to self regulate.

- A bridge is technically a hallway, why not just treat it like one and fill it with room faculties such as a air alarm, fire lock & APC, it'd be easier for cameras to snap onto too.

Second complaint is that while i like the asteroid maintenance tunnels and i think they are a neat idea, the rock isn't unbreakable and all of the station infrastructure such as the bridges & asteroid rock begin to break apart to damage and aren't easy to replace, please add some new assets or shielding to the maintenance because its also a very easy place to depressurise when asteroids explode and reveal the rock face.

- A stronger form of rock that cannot be cut with a autolathable pickaxe item and only broken by diamond drills etc (a bit like the distinction of R&D welders being able to take apart abductor walls) and high grade explosive (or repeated pummelling of asteroids) so that its more reliable would be appropriate.

Third critical complaint is that i have literally no idea how you managed to create such a big map, but each of the rooms are unnessecarily cavernous and this creates a huge problem for communication as everyone becomes very isolated. Making it easy for antagonists to kill our usual 30 population (which doesn't even scratch to fill the place up) when this is supposedly i hear from rumour meant to be lowpop. It really needs to be super +highpop only in its current form to have it fully manned.

- I voted to shrink it a lot, its not a efficient use of space and its very reminiscent to another map (i forget the name, might be deltastation or something) which had 5 tile wide hallways unnecessarily large rooms with awkward maint having a lovechild with asteroidstation.



TL;DR - In short not a good use of existing assets, too big, new assets would mitigate the problem and help it stand out in the unique enviroment its in. It has poor surviability to asteroids & explosives, especially since you need to lattice the asteroid floors before laying down
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(BECAUSE THEY ARE SPACE ASTEROID MY NUMBER ONE TOP GRIPE WITH ALL MMI MIRACLES MAPS ARGH.)


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby bman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:30 pm #283866

FantasticFwoosh wrote:things


this is map feedback not "Shitty suggestions" thread
pryce bax.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:31 pm #283867

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Yes i had a bad first impression of this too.

Anybody with a toolbox can destroy the bridges by simply dismantling and then de-pressurise the entire area, the bridges are very shoddy in design and would probably benefit from unique assets or some kind of new material construction (titanium bridge casing?) the camera on the bridges is completely unrealistic and unrecreatable, atleast put a wall somewhere in the bridge if you are going to run a camera over it & simulate the bridges as rooms to self regulate.

The bridges are meant to be fragile, they exist to be something you can break and separate departments. Pressure loss should be limited to the bridges themselves due to the airlocks at each end unless someone takes the time to break those, too. If you don't want to deal with de-pressurized bridges, then beat up whatever fuck feels the need to bash open windows like you would on any other station.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:- A bridge is technically a hallway, why not just treat it like one and fill it with room faculties such as a air alarm, fire lock & APC, it'd be easier for cameras to snap onto too.

Adding separate APCs and unique areas solely for bridges sounds redundant and wouldn't even really fit properly. They're meant as generic reinforced segments that branch out to connect asteroids.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Second complaint is that while i like the asteroid maintenance tunnels and i think they are a neat idea, the rock isn't unbreakable and all of the station infrastructure such as the bridges & asteroid rock begin to break apart to damage and aren't easy to replace, please add some new assets or shielding to the maintenance because its also a very easy place to depressurise when asteroids explode and reveal the rock face.

So, just like any other maintenance on other stations? At worst, you have an opening from a meteor/dingus assistant with a pickaxe, so you patch it up with a wall just like you would on other stations. If anything, the station is easier to re-pressurize as all you have to do is plug up any holes in the walls and throw in an air canister if a bomb goes off, as you still have the asteroid flooring to prevent further air being pushed into space.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:- A stronger form of rock that cannot be cut with a autolathable pickaxe item and only broken by diamond drills etc (a bit like the distinction of R&D welders being able to take apart abductor walls) and high grade explosive (or repeated pummelling of asteroids) so that its more reliable would be appropriate.

This isn't that bad of an idea, I think I'll look into making tougher bits of asteroid rock for sections.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Third critical complaint is that i have literally no idea how you managed to create such a big map, but each of the rooms are unnessecarily cavernous and this creates a huge problem for communication as everyone becomes very isolated. Making it easy for antagonists to kill our usual 30 population (which doesn't even scratch to fill the place up) when this is supposedly i hear from rumour meant to be lowpop. It really needs to be super +highpop only in its current form to have it fully manned.

Congrats, you realized the whole purpose of the map: isolation. This map has a min-pop requirement of 60 players, so unless someone has fucked with server configs, it shouldn't be popping up until higher-population.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:- I voted to shrink it a lot, its not a efficient use of space and its very reminiscent to another map (i forget the name, might be deltastation or something) which had 5 tile wide hallways unnecessarily large rooms with awkward maint having a lovechild with asteroidstation.

[/quote]

I'm still heavily against the concept of compressing the map, as it'd kill the whole purpose of it as I stated above.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:53 pm #283880

> "This map was only pretending to be deficient" - Most of the bad features were intentional weak points. What a twist!

Fair enough, but with the amount of stubbed toes calls from 1 well placed asteroid destroying vital infrastructure that needs a pain in the ass engineering response to fix and lizards drop left right and center from cold space killing them (some cold & airless humans too when the air tanks run out) then its a bit of a problem without unique assets or better planning.

And i do think making the isolation aspect of it makes it way too easy for antagonists to do its thing and will summarily lead it to be unpopular with players, people especially deadchatters don't like to see antagonist have a easy time, sure you can be paranoid far apart, but blob would be unbeatable (hide and spread across struts), cult would never be found, traitors can TC trade a gun and shoot you dead without nobody witnessing it, lings do ling things & malf AI's in their autism asteroid fortress can order borgs to decon the bridges & bolt people inside asteroid departments (without space suits to get out) before flooding.

> Comms go down via event/interference = no help coming ever. Destroy the bridges and play nations every round.

- Yes maint gets hammered on other stations, but usually it leaves a exposed girder leaving atmos, the rock wall falls apart easily in response to damage, and asteroids cause AOE instant destruction of rock walls, debris which is summarily common from the sand tiles also ping pongs from high velocity around the map causing more damage.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:06 am #283884

Well, yes, one of the main design points in the thread initially when I was suggesting the concept was the separation and added isolation before I even started mapping. I don't see the issue here?

If meteors are causing issues, then blame shitty engineering for not doing their job to patch the holes.

I don't see an issue with antagonists being able to work undetected. Being able to work your job position unknowing of the serial killer dropping non-vital crew in corners of the station or a demonic cult working their way up to summoning their deity sounds like the perfect start to some paranoia. Salty deadchat can complain all they want about being dunked, doesn't bother me much.

I mean, if you want, sure. Nations is actually pretty fun on this map from what I've seen in-game.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:12 am #283887

Its critically vital whether the antagonists wins or not, in which case you can simply fly straight to the captains office in command as a nuke op assuming nobody's home, nab the disk while another op quickly dips inside the mining bay to steal a pick, dig some rocks set nuke and end the round. Blob ends the round too. I mean it makes the entire orderal fallibly easy especially when not being able to engage the enemy will just lose the round. Before you can scream rev, a entire asteroid section gets converted and tides through before bombing all of the central command asteroid into smithereens.

And even so with traitor/ling/mulligan wizard whatever rounds there will be large spread out murderbones (like i've just seen with a ling) across the stations with everyone unaware that anything is wrong like some kind of cheesy slasher flick requiring a admin restart. The shuttle doesn't auto call until the antag does or virtually all the staff are literally dead (the antagonist is usually counted as a member of staff)


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby ShizCalev » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:37 pm #284072

Issues:

RD has no robotics control console in his office
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/26438

Duplicated buttons in CE's office
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/26440

Broken camera href's everywhere
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/26437

AI hallway & foyer area have no air alarms or APC's.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/26439
ImageImage


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby metacide » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:51 am #284425

CMO has no RC for announcements in his office.

The central offices at bridge thing looks visually neat but should be fluff - all ACTUAL stuff should be in the departments.

Plenty of maint areas aren't shielded from radiation, so radstorms kill tons of people every shift when no one knows what is "real" maint. Please fix. Part of this is because rad storms are garbage and don't visually indicate where is safe until it's too late, but it seems half of maint on this station in unshielded.

As much as I like many features of this map, every single round is a shitshow at the moment because its size means CHAOS REIGNS. I don't see this changing - playing as security is incredibly difficult. The brig and control rooms are neat to look at but tremendously unwieldly. Arming the troops during disasters is impossible. The security department is a disaster. Everyone knows this so it's greytide worldwide every shift.
Last edited by metacide on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:56 am #284427

Wait what, the maintenance tunnels don't even have a maint area set over them? Rock is not a suitable turf for making rooms even though it is atmos tight, but rad storms aren't fussy whether anything is destroyed & exposed so its' probably the former.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby metacide » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:00 am #284429

Some do, some don't, but because there are only a small number of maint areas coded the mapper hasn't been able to cover all areas with that designation, it seems. It was a bit of a problem on meta so a handful of tiny areas aren't "actual maint", but it's much worse on here because of the size.

Also whoever designed the random event seems a thoughtless boob, with it not actually showing what is "safe" until gg no re you're dead from rads - they deserve more blame I would say.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Iatots » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:31 am #284433

You mean, you can't just swap a var on a new area and have it be shielded?
If you could add a stub about this kind stuff on the wiki that would be great btw.

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:35 am #284434

Assumedly the creator of the radstorm would expect all mappers to provide appropriate maintenance & structurally sensical map design, it should also be addressed that in this case you might be stuck on a connecting inter-department bridge and have to run all the distance between 1 department and the next to enter a maint that doesn't even shield you then you die fatally afterwards is on the back of the creator of the map.

Just my idea input wrote:I could improve this map 2000% by adding a simple loose wall perimiter in the near full asteroid rock in maint without a unique asset, enough to create the illusion of a mock asteroid wall with the protection of a simple iron wall & also ensure it is recognized as a room. Via experiments creating rooms with sandstone doors on lavaland its possible because rocks is not recognized as i previously mentioned as any form of legitimate wall and effectively in room terms asteroid maint leads into space. Hide the zig zagging walls behind smoother layers of rock.

You could also make the bridge 5 wide with 2 2x15 (i didn't count the exact length, what is it 2x12?) walkways and then run a straight transit tube through the middle of it so people can trasport quickly, then its a case of aesthetics & securing the bridge and its suddenly not a reinforced floor empty airfield of a (non) room. Adding buttonable blast doors/shutters to the windowed areas would also help just reinforce some full tile reinforced windows as per our usual setup, unless the double directional layer thin reinforced windows are being kept.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:29 pm #284452

I'm not sure where these 'non-rad maint' areas are. The only areas I can think of that people may be complaining about are the external airlock rooms that serve more as airlock room than anything else. All the tunnels have proper maintenance areas and their associated mini-rooms, the airlock rooms aren't meant to have rad-shielding. Applying proper maintenance areas here would require redundant APCs weird area mapping to make them considered 'rad-proof', as they're currently just the same area as their associated hallway.

As for room designation, it shouldn't be too difficult to place your own walls after digging out a room if you want proper area designation.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Qbopper » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:33 pm #284800

MMMiracles wrote:I'm not sure where these 'non-rad maint' areas are. The only areas I can think of that people may be complaining about are the external airlock rooms that serve more as airlock room than anything else. All the tunnels have proper maintenance areas and their associated mini-rooms, the airlock rooms aren't meant to have rad-shielding. Applying proper maintenance areas here would require redundant APCs weird area mapping to make them considered 'rad-proof', as they're currently just the same area as their associated hallway.


I'd have to look at the way the areas are laid out but I know for a fact certain areas of maint aren't shielded, and I don't know why that may be - if you're applying the maint area to all of the tunnels and rooms it should be fine, but I've seen these issues in game myself (though I don't remember where)

It might be worth running the map and spamming rad storms to look for these problem spots
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:58 pm #284982

Image

This grinds my gears, there are hallways smaller than this on the station but the cameras and bridges aren't even rooms and have no walls whatsoever to even put the cameras on and as such if you simply yank or destroy them, you cannot replace the cameras and lose coverage.

This T junction outside the the AI+Tcomms and also Command's respective asteroid departments is vitally important & can be took out with 1 bomb spitting rods & debris like shards all over space. Its ugly to boot.



Just observed a prior malf AI round, the AI won a 300+ second countdown with like 3 hacked APC's because firstly everyone was cheering to end the map, and secondly its core is a super detached autism fortress. Aaaand just finished, another changeling round completely decimates highpop because sec cannot co-ordinate with this shitty coverage of cameras & distance. Real nice plan there bud making it easy for antags.

oh did i mention THERE IS A 50+ TILE WIDE SPACE JUMP IN DISPOSALS WHICH GOES EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH SPACE! ahh, really i do think you didn't follow the mapping guidelines on testing by riding the disposals yourself, that and the latent bugs about people travelling the same speed through space means that actually completing a circuit in disposals could kill you.

50 wide jump is on the west side of the station.


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Image

Two free quantum pad drops for science, that if rumor tells me aren't even connected together. Literally why. We have transit tubes.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Gun Hog » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:13 am #285140

The Aux Mining Base is missing a public mining shuttle docking port. This port is to allow the mining shuttle to dock at the airlock which is normally occupied by the base. It becomes available to use once the base is launched and the portable mining shuttle beacon is activated. The path used is "/obj/docking_port/stationary/public_mining_dock".

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:08 am #285185

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Image

This grinds my gears, there are hallways smaller than this on the station but the cameras and bridges aren't even rooms and have no walls whatsoever to even put the cameras on and as such if you simply yank or destroy them, you cannot replace the cameras and lose coverage.

This T junction outside the the AI+Tcomms and also Command's respective asteroid departments is vitally important & can be took out with 1 bomb spitting rods & debris like shards all over space. Its ugly to boot.



If this is as much of an issue as you put it out to be, then adding wall segments for them isn't necessarily difficult. Bridges lacking proper areas is because I'm trying to keep the redundant usage of APCs down and because I generally think they look better as they are now with full lighting.

I mean, good. The whole point of the bridges is to be prime targets for antagonists to help hinder movement. I personally don't find it ugly but that's more of a personal taste.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Just observed a prior malf AI round, the AI won a 300+ second countdown with like 3 hacked APC's because firstly everyone was cheering to end the map, and secondly its core is a super detached autism fortress. Aaaand just finished, another changeling round completely decimates highpop because sec cannot co-ordinate with this shitty coverage of cameras & distance. Real nice plan there bud making it easy for antags.

So it won because the loud minority was going 'fuk dis map!!' and decided not to activitely try to hinder the antagonists? I feel bad for those who just wanted to actually play and had their experiences hindered by people who can't seem to understand that some people have differing opinions on the map and feel like the only way to express themselves is to spurge out whenever the map becomes active.

It also sounds like the changelings did a decent job, but I can't tell with how vague you're being and acting like it holds real criticism.

FantasticFwoosh wrote:oh did i mention THERE IS A 50+ TILE WIDE SPACE JUMP IN DISPOSALS WHICH GOES EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH SPACE! ahh, really i do think you didn't follow the mapping guidelines on testing by riding the disposals yourself, that and the latent bugs about people travelling the same speed through space means that actually completing a circuit in disposals could kill you.

50 wide jump is on the west side of the station.

I mean, I did test it locally, don't know why you'd assume otherwise. Yeah, you'll probably die trying to do a full circuit, but that's because you're an idiot if you manage to do a full circuit without hitting one of the several belt-fed areas that are pressurized and have all-access airlocks back into maintenance. Mr.Cere's disposal wild ride is not for the faint of heart.


FantasticFwoosh wrote:

IT GETS BETTER.
Image

Two free quantum pad drops for science, that if rumor tells me aren't even connected together. Literally why. We have transit tubes.

Quantum pads exist to be linked up early-round to help bypass the longer walks. If you want to see why transit tubes do not work in practice as a main method of transport, look at Diskstation. Like the fact you even suggested transit tubes seriously is enough to know you've never used them past the small segments seen in areas like the AI-sat.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:28 am #285188

Hold up, you've just told to basically go fix the bridges myself by adding walls. Instead of bothering through common sense to add walls anyway because matter of fact the cameras are going to be dislodged & displaced when the windows break to some greifer with a fire axe or a asteroid? I mean its a incredibly simple move, and iron sheet wall pillars atleast at cruicial segments wouldn't even affect your intended 'structural instability'

Code: Select all
/obj/item/weapon/circuitboard/machine/quantumpad
   name = "Quantum Pad (Machine Board)"
   build_path = /obj/machinery/quantumpad
   origin_tech = "programming=3;engineering=3;plasmatech=3;bluespace=4"
   req_components = list(
                     /obj/item/weapon/ore/bluespace_crystal = 1,
                     /obj/item/weapon/stock_parts/capacitor = 1,
                     /obj/item/weapon/stock_parts/manipulator = 1,
                     /obj/item/stack/cable_coil = 1)
   def_components = list(/obj/item/weapon/ore/bluespace_crystal = /obj/item/weapon/ore/bluespace_crystal/artificial)


Those quantum pads can instantly powercreep when decomissioned RnD to level 4 technology (plus bluespace five) with a screwdriver and a lever because there are two of them.


Popularity for the map is important and it seemed that players gathered enough a negative opinion of it to warner cheering on its destruction, as also mentioned nobody could effectively gather together to kill the AI (teething troubles maybe with adjusting to a new map but there are 4 layers of rock & reinforced walls surrounding its core and as you say a structurally destructable bridge that can be welder-bombed easily)

As previously mentioned sec can't operate properly without mapped out zones, cameras that can't be put back up on their bearings once torn down & the huge vastness of the area that has been created.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:12 am #285195

If RnD is deconstructing the pads then let them know how you feel about them taking out the rapid transport because they're lazy fucks. Sounds like about as much as an issue as them deconstructing the teleporter for research.

I don't see the issue with the AI sat either, considering every other map has an isolated AI sat with extremely easy to disable pathways to. Like, an engieborg could out-right disable both methods of travel on other maps by wrenching a single transit tube and moving the teleporter beacon somewhere else. I genuinely don't see where this is suppose to have validity. Also acting as if the vocal minority is now making up the vast majority of the opinion of the map is dumb. There is a fairly equal amount of like/dislike for the map being vocalized on the rounds I've observed, with most just being quiet and playing their game of spacemans because they could probably give less of a shit.

Security might have trouble keeping full reigns on the station, but that is also why departmental security exists. Guard your posts and actually watch over your assigned department instead of running around the halls. Departmental security isn't much of an active thing in other maps as response times can be rather quick due to distance, but this map actually requires security to keep spread out and watching over equally if they want to deal with crime.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:21 am #285198

Excuse me but it does very much sound like you're trying to brush off any responsibility for later adjustments to fix the map of its critical problems by simply stating that players ought to pick up the pieces after you or it was all planned. Least understanding that there's a wide difference between well designed insecurity and lazyness passed off as features and promising to address some points might have been more assuring, but if you really think you know best then im willing to argue it out more.

The quantum pads are out of place and shouldn't have been put there at all because the buff of it is massive completing a entire 15-20 minute stint of RnD in 20 seconds running them through a destructive analyser, as to transit tubes they are just THERE if you dont want to walk and don't carry these problems.

- By stripping them entirely and dumping them in disposals you can kill people (especially lizards fast with poor cold resistance) and have them arrive dead (or create a infinite loop in one of those completely disjointed disposal space areas too far away from the station to do anything) to the other side by going through the circuit without a way to go off course.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:46 am #285201

I know what I had intended when I started making this map and even had all my ideas wrapped up nicely in this thread when I started mapping this months ago to get feedback on how decent the map would actually be, which is why it was made in the first place. If it not playing exactly like box/meta is apparently just me brushing off responsibility, then oh well.

You know why we don't have transit tubes on this map currently? Because we had them in the initial testing and they did nothing of value. They are terrible for movement across large sections and are extremely easy to sabotage and make out-right useless. I know for a fact they're awful and the quantum pads exist because that's what people suggested during testing. If RnD is breaking them apart (something I haven't personally seen in my multiple rounds observing for feedback), then make sure to let them know how you feel about them deconstructing vital parts of the station for their laziness.

If you get dropped in disposals and get trapped in an infinite loop that was set up before-hand to keep you gone, then congrats to the antagonist who took the time to setup the system to trap you in the first place. Otherwise, everything not marked as a package gets sent to the crusher in cargo, where your local friendly cargo tech can grab your corpse.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Lazengann » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:15 am #285706

Cool I got the nuke op bundle let me just c4 into the armory--

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Oh

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Luke Cox » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:44 am #285835

It's like antags have to use different tactics for different maps!
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:59 am #285841

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Gun Hog » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:18 am #285847

A pick is provided for you in the maint north of Dorms, which is the closest one. Dig into the Sec maint to the west of that location, then either dig to the side of the armory's entrance to blow the single r-wall, proceeding to smash the windows there. Alternatively, you can dig near the back of the armory and use two blocks to blow through there.

There used to be a disposals chute leading directly into it. Maybe that made things too easy?

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby ShizCalev » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:39 am #286879

Sec gets no mindshield implants, tracking implants, or chemical implants. Nor do they have any lethal syringes or a surgical toolbag in their medical outpost like the other stations have.

Can you also add a contraband locker to the armory? (It's literally just a empty locker w/ id lock so you can lock illegal equipment in it.)
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:46 am #286881

ShizCalev wrote:Sec gets no mindshield implants, tracking implants, or chemical implants. Nor do they have any lethal syringes or a surgical toolbag in their medical outpost like the other stations have.

Can you also add a contraband locker to the armory? (It's literally just a empty locker w/ id lock so you can lock illegal equipment in it.)


Hmm, had a feeling I was missing something from the armory but nobody ever mentioned that until now. I'll get a fix up for it shortly.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby ChemicalRascal » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:56 am #286882

Just want to add my voice here because MMM literally did say he'd bash my head in if I didn't.

I understand, I think we all understand, that the isolation factor is intentional and deliberate. But that doesn't mean that it's good. Our fork of SS13 is specifically designed around inter-department cooperation, to the point that things have been nerfed heavily in the past to encourage that. Departments aren't and will never be self-sustainable, so long as the medical system exists and each one doesn't have a medbay.

But you want actionable stuff, of course. Make everything smaller, or at least less cavernous, and stop ignoring established conventions, like pods being usable without navigating through maint (or "asteroid maint" I guess in this case). Or how the cargo bay is bizarrely tiny. Or how you normally can't destroy atmos by just going through maint and breaking a wall (although, admittedly, the fact that Ceres has space-suits everywhere means that the normal convention of put-the-gas-rooms-in-space won't work).

Also, contraband lockers are more than that, IIRC, because there's the random potential for a roundstart sketchkin (or similar) to be inside. I haven't looked at what does that, though, admittedly.

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:16 am #286886

ChemicalRascal wrote:Just want to add my voice here because MMM literally did say he'd bash my head in if I didn't.

No. I said I'd kick your dog, but close enough.

ChemicalRascal wrote:I understand, I think we all understand, that the isolation factor is intentional and deliberate. But that doesn't mean that it's good. Our fork of SS13 is specifically designed around inter-department cooperation, to the point that things have been nerfed heavily in the past to encourage that. Departments aren't and will never be self-sustainable, so long as the medical system exists and each one doesn't have a medbay.

I don't believe the version of ss13 /tg/ runs goes against the concept of isolation, with its few cooperative methods mainly being between service departments (which are close together), RnD supposed to be upgrading shit, or the usual interactions of medbay with everyone else. I never built the map in mind with departments being self-sustainable nor did I ever advertise it as such, so I don't know where that came from. I understand that some people might not like being more separated, which is something I tried to work around to an extent with the disposals system. All departments can mail each other items via disposals and are even given the proper tools needed, so you shouldn't need to walk across the station for stuff when you can just PDA/request console them and they can mail it to your room directly! As for the medical section, I have departments more than one segment away from them having their own mini-medbay for stabilizing people to drag to Medbay.

ChemicalRascal wrote:But you want actionable stuff, of course. Make everything smaller, or at least less cavernous, and stop ignoring established conventions, like pods being usable without navigating through maint (or "asteroid maint" I guess in this case). Or how the cargo bay is bizarrely tiny. Or how you normally can't destroy atmos by just going through maint and breaking a wall (although, admittedly, the fact that Ceres has space-suits everywhere means that the normal convention of put-the-gas-rooms-in-space won't work).

The poll is there for a reason, even though I really dislike the concept of shrinking the map as that'd go against some of the most basic design choices I made when I did concept sketches of the layout. There isn't anything necessarily wrong about going against normal conventions, as otherwise you're just going to have several varieties of the same flavor, which may look visually different, just end up playing out the same exact way as the others. If you don't bother experimenting then you'll never know what works/doesn't work.

ChemicalRascal wrote:Also, contraband lockers are more than that, IIRC, because there's the random potential for a roundstart sketchkin (or similar) to be inside. I haven't looked at what does that, though, admittedly.

The lockers themselves are essentially just generic lockers renamed, the actual fun stuff that can spawn inside it come from a separate spawner, which I believe was something started by Metacide when he did metastation.


Now, don't take this as me tossing aside your view on the map or anything, its just how I feel about and see it at hand. I still fully intend to work on and tweak this map over the coming months to iron out issues, so feedback is extremely appreciated. I can understand some points where you can dislike the map, but it should be noted there are also people who enjoy the map because it does these things differently, so making a middle-ground where both parties are happy is sometimes a bit difficult.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:41 am #286926

Sitting in OOC, and players think the isolation aspect and how it allows people to just win antagonistic roles too easily because sec cannot interdepartmentally respond, and the bridges between departments are both too fragile & literally the only way to get there without space walking. Its not just a figment of my imagination.

I wouldn't expect medbay to ever EMRT on this map because its so obtusely vast you'd die, if anything you have to rely on the AI and hope they are not evil (good for you the ai is usually via cerestation strategy converted first)

Its one of those maps that are so absurd to manage, a actual advanced security camera console would be required to properly travel through its loose and completely garbage inconsistent and hastily made networks. Oh and one more thing, xenobiology has a interim room between there xenobiology and test lab that has xenobiology access doors leading into it, instead of being all general purpose science doors, if you get trapped inside as a officer (as i did one round tasked to science) you effectively cannot escape unless you smash the glass into xeno & travel via the maint.

I then walked miles and miles through cameraless asteroid maint just to loop around to toxins which was weird because the departments are literally right next to each other. You could literally put a ghost role of valid assistant Maintenance Glorfs into the rocks and nobody would notice because the asteroids too are vastly long and drawn out into maint when they aren't breached by literally anything.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby DemonFiren » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:16 am #286931

Less complete coverage is not a bad thing.
Security and Medical not being right on top of you the moment you shout for help is not a bad thing.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:19 pm #286936

DemonFiren wrote:Less complete coverage is not a bad thing.
Security and Medical not being right on top of you the moment you shout for help is not a bad thing.


Over such wide areas that should be covered? (like the only in-out exits on bridges not even being replacable if they get knocked down) Then you obviously have such little

Fair enough cavernous maint is annoying enough to deal with, but its a pain in the ass, with a advanced camera console you wouldn't have to jump to three seperate cameras covering the same T junction between command bridge and some other place, and just spend a LOT of time scrolling. I don't even know.


Im literally looking at the map now in map editor, the bridges have no area designation or IC way to modify their camera names so literally when they go down and are rebuilt they will read they are in space.

- It might need a new area designation, but why couldn't you have just designated each asteroid half of the bridge so that they line up to areas then used cameras fixed into space (or behind the glass) that can actually be touched and rebuilt albeit with a space suit but atleast its safer and more innovative than leaving them in harms way ON the bridge.

I've rebuilt half the right hand side of bridge for you in a way that i think is more agreeable. Its more reinforced, has a working starboard hallway area generic APC (that works independently) because the way the hallways connect is garbage and really difficult. It also has a space camera (linked into the area) with spotty coverage due to the reinforced pillars which is intentional (to keep you happy)

The way the windows are made are as to keep them clean with the reinforced pillars, and i replaced the reinforced floors because firstly if the bridge is actually safe, they dont need them, it helps the bridge blow up better without actually destroying the whole thing (the floor is gone but the pillars still stand to rebuild from) and its a MASSIVE eyesore not consistent with the rest of the hallways. See before & after on left to right hand side of that bridge.

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Another problem is that MAINT is not clearly defined right HERE

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These backrooms are not independent at all and get mistaken for maint.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:53 pm #286939

The suggested bridge design isn't exactly a bad idea, no sure why you felt the need to place the camera outside the bridge for super-shitty coverage (this literally is not a thing on the map, any sub-par coverage is due to oversight and not intentional).

As for those rooms, they AREN'T suppose to be maintenance. Apparently the door rename wasn't enough for people, so I guess I'll have to look into adding a new sub-type of airlock to differentiate them even more.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby DemonFiren » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:54 pm #286940

"People" being Fwoosh, I don't think that's necessary.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:01 pm #286941

Its so it can't be smashed by shitters in such as a case of literally anybody trying to destroy the cameras like the existing setup & issue i mentioned in that rebuilding it (without a wall to put it on) would list it being in the space area.

- You already have cameras covering the two exit points of that starboard hallway bridge so a loose camera to broadly monitor it from the outside without as previously mentioned being in harms way, and people can shoot it out if they want to but can't deactivate it. It also means that the AI has little to no control over the APC infront of it so its a stalemate that doesn't cause antag contention but does give coverage (but the two exit point cameras are better and will see through the glass doors)

- The other plan was to put a button (with engineering/security+ level access needed) in the cameras line of sight so you could deliberately block out the camera if you so wished as a silicon, or needed to close shutters placed on the bridge to fix floors without people spamming it.


No, people being everyone prior complaining of dying in rad storms because they can't distinguish a safe clearly marked area from one that overlaps into open hallways in the area.

So its not good when I put down shitty coverage strategic cameras but it is when you do? Ok.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Gun Hog » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:17 pm #286983

One big gripe I have about CereStation is that Toxins leaves much to be desired, falling behind the other high-pop maps. Strangely, Box seems to come out on top! Here is my comparison, in order of best to worst:
Box:
- More than one portable air pump, these machines are critical for Lavaland MOABs.
- Freezer and Heater provided, although they need to be repiped to avoid mixing your hot and cold mixes.
- Burn chamber for hot CO2 creation and safe emptying of the canisters/air pumps.
- Secondary chamber for playing with gasses for testing things other than bombs.
- Gas filter for more control over air mix ratios.
- 5 Plasma, 4 Oxygen canisters.

Delta:
- Only one portable air pump
- Freezer and Heater provided, on separate loops.
- Canister ports for unwanted air mix disposal.
- Gas filter provided.
- No burn chamber.
- 7 Plasma, 6 Oxy

Meta
- Only one portable air pump.
- Freezer only, no heater.
- Burn chamber.
- Gas filter provided.
- 6 Plasma, 4 Oxy

Cere
- Two portable air pumps (The only plus!)
- No freezer or heater.
- Burn chamber.
- No gas filter.
- 5 Plasma, 4 Oxy.

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:26 pm #286986

My main gripe is: why does toxins need a built-in freezer/heater round-start? Toxins used to come with neither, meaning they either needed to barter with Atmospherics to chill their canisters, build the associated machines themselves (not exactly difficult), or risk stealing the supplies needed to build a cooling/healing loop themselves. Giving toxins a heater and freezer round-start removes any effort and makes them a department with the most destructive potential with absolutely zero outside help needed.

I can see about a gas filter in the current tweak PR, but I'm pretty adamant about keeping those machines out round-start.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Dr_bee » Wed May 03, 2017 10:04 am #287965

MMMiracles wrote:My main gripe is: why does toxins need a built-in freezer/heater round-start? Toxins used to come with neither, meaning they either needed to barter with Atmospherics to chill their canisters, build the associated machines themselves (not exactly difficult), or risk stealing the supplies needed to build a cooling/healing loop themselves. Giving toxins a heater and freezer round-start removes any effort and makes them a department with the most destructive potential with absolutely zero outside help needed.

I can see about a gas filter in the current tweak PR, but I'm pretty adamant about keeping those machines out round-start.


This is actually my favorite change to this map, and as it is a map that can be especially crippled via a few toxins bombs, plus RnD is literally down the hall for you to make your own heater and freezer.

I like fwoosh's bridge design, it gives something to build off of if things get destroyed, and is not to hard for holes to be patched. The atmos problems with the bridges are solved by the handy-dandy air hookups at the bridge ends so that isnt a problem so much as repairing structural damage was.

On the subject of security. The sec posts are functional but lack a few VERY important features, namely rechargers, having to traverse the station every time my taser needs a recharge makes policing your department hell. The travel tubes for prisoners is handy, and I am happy you made them, but could there be a delta-station style cell as well?

On the subject of medical. There appears to be a few clear areas that are supposed to be little clinics in various places, and those asteroids that do not have them need to have them added. I also would like to see these clinics buffed a bit, enough so that there might be a reason for a medical doctor to man them as a departmental EMT if they want. Adding an emergency Nanomed would be a good start, as it provides pretty decent amount of healing materials but not enough to last a very long time, useful for treating minor injuries. Also, if at all possible, adding a sleeper that only dispenses Epinephrine and Salbutamol would be a welcome addition to these clinics, as they would allow medical personnel or good Samaritans to load up a person with stabilizing chemicals so they can survive the long trip to medbay.

The goal for both the sec post and the mini-clinic would be to allow each individual asteroid to survive somewhat functionally without the rest of the station but not for very long, as eventually the clinic will run out of medical supplies for example and the sec post has no way to procure more ammo besides the one charger. The clinics and sec posts also would not be able to handle more serious situations, the one officer in a sec post will be hard pressed to contain a riot for example, and the mini medbay wont have a way to treat blood-loss or genetic damage, and will eventually run out of its meager supplies.

On the subject of the disposals system, Put "SPACE" warning signs near every disposal, it isnt clear from the outset that the disposals lead to space and because other maps dont have the unique space disposals there needs to be some reminder to people that disposaling isnt a minor punishment for trespassers anymore.

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby FantasticFwoosh » Wed May 03, 2017 10:49 am #287972

Air canisters between each bridge being shut off with valve access would also be helpful like dr bee says, along with the ability for traitors to purposefully cut off the imported air supply as to choke out a asteroid department to add onto his statement.


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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Bombadil » Thu May 04, 2017 12:00 am #288247

Can you make this map be only for 70+ players. Its horrible for 30 people to be subjected to this massive monstrosity
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Armhulen » Thu May 04, 2017 12:01 am #288248

Bombadil wrote:Can you make this map be only for 70+ players. Its horrible for 30 people to be subjected to this massive monstrosity

"""""massive"""""
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Thu May 04, 2017 12:33 am #288253

If the map is getting played at 30 pop then that's an issue with map rotation, as the map is currently set to only be available on 45+ population.
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby Bombadil » Thu May 04, 2017 2:18 pm #288419

MMMiracles wrote:If the map is getting played at 30 pop then that's an issue with map rotation, as the map is currently set to only be available on 45+ population.


When i checked who we had like 39 players at roundstart iirc. Make it fifty please
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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Thu May 04, 2017 11:18 pm #288631

Bombadil wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:If the map is getting played at 30 pop then that's an issue with map rotation, as the map is currently set to only be available on 45+ population.


When i checked who we had like 39 players at roundstart iirc. Make it fifty please

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Re: Cerestation (WIP) (Size Poll)

Postby MMMiracles » Fri May 05, 2017 12:13 am #288663

Seems fine to me, didn't quite like the 45 min limit.
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