The Female Body

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:47 pm #260260

Bottom post of the previous page:

With the trend towards 3/4th sprites going the way it is, I think it'd be kind of silly if we resprited all the humans and clothes right now in the soon-to-be-obsolete flat-in-front (there has to be a better term for that) perspective. I think it'd be best if we first made 3/4th humans before trying something as gigantic as a total clothing resprite.

This is actually the kind of thought process that stalls so much of my work. Why resprite all humans/turfs/objects/whatever on soon-to-be obsolete styles/perspectives/color palettes instead of just making the jump?

Remie Richards · Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:03 pm

Mobs will never be 3/4.

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:14 pm #260269

3/4 humans is unreasonable

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:20 pm #260270

I mean if you're going so far as to resprite every single clothing item in the game you might as well go all the way, no?

Post by **Thunder11** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:28 pm #260271

Need I remind you that arguments over perspective were one of the big things that sank ss14 completely

Remie Richards · Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:37 pm

There is no argument here.
3/4ths everything but mobs
Face on mobs (except were they look better in SIDE ON 3/4ths, like egg borgs)

danno · Post by **danno** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:39 pm #260276

I highly doubt anyone is going to take the time to resprite all clothing regardless.
I only recolored some and it took ages. It's a tedious slog and no one will do it.

TheColdTurtle · Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:47 pm

As danno said, it would be nearly impossible to recreate all the female clothing sprites. But the current naked sprites are absolutely horrible now. It seems the best option for now at least is to modify the current sprite a bit while keeping it in the current clothe sprite

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:54 pm #260298

Yes, it's VERY unlikely that anyone will even redo all mob clothing, as that's a gigantic project on its own.

I'm just saying that if we were ever to make the leap to 3/4th mob sprites, it would be best to only redo clothing at that point, because it would be a wasted effort otherwise.

Remie Richards · Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:00 pm

We. Are. Not. 3/4thing. Mobs.

Get that into your head WJ.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:15 pm #260310

This is now a 3/4ths thread.

It's trash and shame on you for thinking it looks good. Things need to look like how they actually are, not from some context robbing perspective.

OK, back to the mob stuff.

pubby · Post by **pubby** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:34 pm #260313

Why does it need to be "all" clothing sprites? Why not just "some"?

IMO a good starting point would be female versions of the basic jumpsuits. Other clothes can wait.

confused rock · Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:40 pm

yea, do the incredibly ugly squishing thing to jumpsuits which don't have a specific female sprite, that way it can happen over time.
hell I'd learn to make half decent sprites to help if we actually do this.

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:46 pm #260317

>Do it only for some.
>Do it over time.
>F A T S P R I T E S

confused rock · Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:49 pm

sure we can do lardsprites too

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:34 am #260353

i'm referring to how fatsprites were left in a perpetual unfinished state with SO many missing sprites for basic jumpsuits, let alone exosuits or anything else, and how the exact same problem would happen here.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:44 am #260358

If it can't be done dynamically it shouldn't be done.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:46 am #260359

it can be done dynamically, it would just look a bit odd to have your body change shape depending on what things you put on.

But our players are forgiving they would understand.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:55 am #260477

why did a thread about female body sprites turn into a 3/4s discussion we can have another thread for that :/

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:45 am #260491

kevinz, this is tg

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:07 pm

kevinz000 wrote:why did a thread about female body sprites turn into a 3/4s discussion we can have another thread for that :/

ask WJ he brought it up.
Anyways I have a plan for these, ausops give me a dmi of the female sprites (pls don't make me crop from a png)

NEVERMIND I CROPPED FROM THE PNG MWAHAHAHAHA

I have started work on a tool (started as I've only done SOUTH sprites atm) to automatically produce female uniforms from male ones, I'd say the quality is about 90% of the originals, with a few shading errors in places, It supports uniforms, gloves and shoes, supporting roughly 70% of the normal clothing items in game that make sense to be female-fit without any major work from a spriter

Here's an example:

Spoiler:

And here's an example of the tool's feedback to the user:

Spoiler:

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:21 pm #260589

https://file.house/F_RF.dmi

holy fuck remie that's pretty impressive

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:26 pm

imblyings wrote:https://file.house/F_RF.dmi

holy fuck remie that's pretty impressive

confused rock · Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:28 pm

I was going to say something about how we could add specific sprites for the few that look ass but realised I can't think of a way that could possibly manage to look ass

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:38 pm #260594

all a spriter would have to do is scan over the processed sprites and manually touch up any that looked like ass

it actually seems possible now, well there are shoes, gloves, suits to consider

I know I had some difficulty imagining how things like hardsuits would be squashed but we'll see

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:40 pm

imblyings wrote:well there are shoes, gloves

:3

Shoes and gloves are actually covered!
The tool goes over a sprite, and tries to see if it contains:

Hands
Arms
Chest
Legs
Feet

or any combination of the above, and handles them appropriately, if you check the feedback (above post) you'll see the wait suit has no hands or feet, but does have arms chests and legs.
Because of the above, you could actually import a picture of a fully clothed spessmen and it'd produce what they'd look like had they been a woman, mostly, though this is not the intention of the tool

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:42 pm #260597

oh so it does, saw the mob sprite and assumed otherwise

how did you manage knowing what colours to move around for new outlines

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:45 pm

Sampled some pixels.
There's:

Code: Select all

var/feetInternalCol = 				S.GetPixel(14,2) //this is *probably* the shading for the feet/shoes, should work 90% of the time
var/legInternalCol  = 				S.GetPixel(14,7)

Which are determined once from the sprite, and used where necessary
and:

Code: Select all

var/outlineCol 	//Determined per-section, to try our best to preserve shading/colours
var/p5LighterOutlineCol	//^
var/p10LighterOutlineCol	//^

Which are reproduced every section (Hands, Arms, Chest, etc.), p5 and p10 just mean 5% and 10% increase in lightness to *attempt* to produce similar shading.
5% lighter is used in the shoes, and 10% lighter is used in the legs, they make up the shaded line where the gap between the legs used to be, hard to tell on the black, let me find another example.

(Edited your post by accident, lmao)

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:10 pm

An Explainer:

or

As you can see the medical jumpsuit has some shading errors, but still remains largely ok (you wouldn't really notice in-game)

Doctor Pork · Post by **Doctor Pork** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:20 pm #260609

is this happening
this looks like its happening

please tell me this is happening

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:41 pm #260611

imblyings wrote:all a spriter would have to do is scan over the processed sprites and manually touch up any that looked like ass

it actually seems possible now, well there are shoes, gloves, suits to consider

I know I had some difficulty imagining how things like hardsuits would be squashed but we'll see

Hardsuits are hard, they shouldn't deforming based on the person inside them.

Interesting solution here Remie, I'd like it better if it was something that could be done in game rather than a tool we'd have to constantly tell spriters to run, but it's never gonna look as good without human eyes clearing the output first.

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 pm

Well incoming, its usage in the future is up to the spriter, imo.
If they want to use the tool to get a quick base for their sprite, that's fine by me but it's primary intention is to process our huge batch of already existing sprites.

granted technically there's no difference, of course.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:04 pm #260616

...fucking christ remie
that's insane

Danowar · Post by **Danowar** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:12 pm #260621

stop trying to fix what ain't broke

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:19 pm #260625

Based on that sprite example specifically I'm kinda worried about the female sprites not having the gap between the legs, would make determining gender at a glance much easier. I don't know, maybe that's not a bad thing.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:20 pm #260626

I do have concerns about it being too easy to identify a disguised person just by how radical the difference is

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:27 pm

danno wrote:...fucking christ remie
that's insane

insane good or insane bad?

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:29 pm #260630

I mean, good
but it scares me

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Why's that?

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:36 pm #260635

My goal was to try and improve the female sprite as much as we could without actually changing the silhouette and therefore without changing any clothing
and I shudder at the thought of what kind of a shit storm such a huge change like this could entail

Doctor Pork · Post by **Doctor Pork** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:47 pm #260639

danno wrote:My goal was to try and improve the female sprite as much as we could without actually changing the silhouette and therefore without changing any clothing
and I shudder at the thought of what kind of a shit storm such a huge change like this could entail

Progress.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:40 pm #260652

I agree that hardsuits should not change based on the person inside them

Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:47 pm

remie can you put that on github or something i'm curious how it works and also want to make fatsprites with it

Remie Richards · Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:56 pm

PKPenguin321 wrote:remie can you put that on github or something i'm curious how it works and also want to make fatsprites with it

1. Unfinished as I said, produces and modifies only SOUTH sprites.
2. Technically applicable to the fatsprite problem, but only the skeleton + main algorithm (if you can call it that, it's just sampling+pixel destruction+pixel addition) are reusable, you'd have to come up with your own sample pixels for each dir (Male->Female uses 5 sample points for SOUTH alone, and most likely per dir, that's 20 sample points, that's not counting shading samples which is another + 2 per dir on top, so potentially 28 total samples)
3. I can *teach you* how to make one of these for fatsprites, but I won't be doing it myself (against the concept), it's not too complex at all, mostly manipulation of pixels, 90% of it is the DrawBox() function of icons, just very heavy and targeted usage of it.

But yes, I will commit it when it's done (in the tools folder, like its cousin the smoothing cutter)

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:04 pm #260673

This is a historic change, and it feels absolutely glorious.

pubby · Post by **pubby** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:23 am #260739

It wasn't clear: Is this a pre-compile script, or something that runs every time the server starts up?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:45 am #260743

From what I get it's an external tool. A spriter makes the male on mob sprite, runs the tool as a separate program to generate a female on mob, tweaks it if needed and adds it to the dmi, then submits the pr.

It does double the number of uniform sprites, and maybe some exosuits too. Besides dmi sprite limit memes it's not too too huge a deal.

Screemonster · Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:40 am

DMI sprite limits wouldn't be such a fuckin' big deal if whoever arranged the DMIs way way way back in the day arranged them into "all the sprites for THING - icon, worn, inhand, and so on - are in the file for THING" then just point the code at whatever dmi that thing's sprites are in, rather than the fucked up "all the back slot things go HERE and all the uniforms go HERE and all the left hands go HERE..." and then you're left wondering what the fuck to do when you run out of space in the dmi for "shit that goes on your back".

But fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckinghell it'd be a task and a half to sort them now.

(I mean I guess you could just make a uniform_f.dmi)

Remie Richards · Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:13 pm

Incoming wrote:From what I get it's an external tool. A spriter makes the male on mob sprite, runs the tool as a separate program to generate a female on mob, tweaks it if needed and adds it to the dmi, then submits the pr.

It does double the number of uniform sprites, and maybe some exosuits too. Besides dmi sprite limit memes it's not too too huge a deal.

This is correct, it's an external program but it's still DM code (because it's easier to use byond's own procs to alter byond's own icon formats, and when byond isn't doing an entire game's worth of work its actually p.fast)

Screemonster wrote:DMI sprite limits wouldn't be such a fuckin' big deal if whoever arranged the DMIs way way way back in the day arranged them into "all the sprites for THING - icon, worn, inhand, and so on - are in the file for THING" then just point the code at whatever dmi that thing's sprites are in, rather than the fucked up "all the back slot things go HERE and all the uniforms go HERE and all the left hands go HERE..." and then you're left wondering what the fuck to do when you run out of space in the dmi for "shit that goes on your back".

But fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckinghell it'd be a task and a half to sort them now.

(I mean I guess you could just make a uniform_f.dmi)

You're clearly not aware that a dmi over a certain amount of states (255?) physically won't open in the DMI editor, and those with just "high" numbers of states take an abysmal amount of time to open.
Yes there's no limit to dmi files (well, functionally like all other file types), but the editor just doesn't like it one bit, so for simplicity of use (99% of people are going to make their DMIs in the DMI editor, regardless of what tool they made to draw the sprites) they were split up into smaller, slot-based files.

Edit 13:06:
North Dir is in the tool now too (it's identical to South code p.much)
Just need to solve East and West, which are going to be the hardest to do:
- No code is usable between these two and N/S
- Not much code is usable between these two themselves
- The hand for E/W is OVER the body, meaning in some situations it might get fucky, but I don't believe we have many outfits that are both a chest AND gloves built in (besides hardsuits which the consensus seems to be "these wouldn't fit to a body anyway")

Edit 13:16:
Oh there's not many sprites changed on the E/W, this shouldn't be much work.

Remie Richards · Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:04 pm

Ok so East is "in"
If I said before N/S were converted with about 90-95% quality, I'd say East was converted with 85-90% quality, it's just a vastly more complex set of pixels to sample and move around.

I won't be doing West today as East has completely drained me, even though the work involved would only really be flipping some pixel coordinates, I'm really out of it for today.
Expect the tool to be done tomorrow/day after.

Here's another
100%/200%/Stupid%

Spoiler:

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:51 pm #260882

the quality at which it was 'translated' is fine, I'm noticing more the errors of the initial sprite