Minor Suggestions Mk. III; Artyom Edition

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:44 pm #11079

Bottom post of the previous page:

WeeYakk wrote:Make riot helmets from the armory block facehuggers.

https://github.com/NTStation/NTstation13/pull/681

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:34 pm #11090

paprika wrote:That's like the whole point of spray bottles. The mop has more wet tiles, but has a delay, and you have to drag a bucket or cart around.

I think the point of a space cleaner bottle is to clean, not to make slippery tiles. Even then, you're much better off using spacelube instead. The mop bucket has no use for cleaning because it's annoying to drag around, takes much, much longer to clean up messes AND causes slippery tiles.

Seriously it's ridiculous how the cleaning items are balanced around combat useability, not cleaning ability.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:01 am #11165

Is that really so ridiculous?

BillWilson · Post by **BillWilson** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:00 am #11179

The ability to set the color of food made from the oven or candy machine. If I make fried pepper kebabs I'd rather them be red, than blue. Or my grass salad be green instead of red.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:42 am #11214

paprika wrote:
WeeYakk wrote:Make riot helmets from the armory block facehuggers.
https://github.com/NTStation/NTstation13/pull/681

Based as heck, dude.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:00 pm #11309

BillWilson wrote:The ability to set the color of food made from the oven or candy machine. If I make fried pepper kebabs I'd rather them be red, than blue. Or my grass salad be green instead of red.

i'll look into it

rexagon · Post by **rexagon** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:49 pm #11318

Just bringing up an old forum idea, but...

Re-introducing...

SENPAI (Syndicate ENabled Personal Artificial Intelligence)*
*I'm fairly certain that's what it stood for.

Just make it a Syndie PAI that you can buy or refund for TC's with robustly buffed PAI functions for Watch Dogs style antics.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:49 pm #11368

rexagon wrote:Just bringing up an old forum idea, but...

Re-introducing...

SENPAI (Syndicate ENabled Personal Artificial Intelligence)*
*I'm fairly certain that's what it stood for.

Just make it a Syndie PAI that you can buy or refund for TC's with robustly buffed PAI functions for Watch Dogs style antics.

Why not just emag a pAI? I mean, practically every traitor that isn't doing a badass balloon run pulls an emag anyway. Why burn TCs on something that requires another player to play it, often requires someone to request a pAI OOC, and is generally underused?
Turbo doorjacks with the ability to interface with things that aren't doors. The ability to alter security records instead of just viewing them. Signaller frequency scanner to show what non-default code/freqs are in use.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:00 am #11402

Emagging a pAI would be p suite, and the nuke ops start with a pAI on their mother base.

Skorvold · Post by **Skorvold** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:12 am #11410

Mannable turrets on the outside of the station to shootdown meteors.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:19 am #11418

but meteors move at the speed of instantaneous

rexagon · Post by **rexagon** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:46 am #11423

As long as SENPAI can notice you.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:54 am #11424

miggles wrote:but meteors move at the speed of instantaneous

Not quite. I heard you can catch one. Good luck with that.

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:43 am #11444

You know those walking mushrooms? And one of the events that TBM had where we had a mushroomon fighting league where we would train mushrooms and let them fight each other in an arena and they eventually started attacking people?

Why not make this a real feature for the game? Have walking mushrooms evolve into a new form after a certain amount of battles! Have these stronger forms retialate against people who attack them. And then add a plant for traitors that makes them attack anyone, similar to a red slime extract. Like slimes but potentially much, much stronger with training. Downside is the amount of effort required to actually get their seed, train them strong and the fact that they attack each other so using more than 1 is impractical.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:10 am #11449

But mushrooms already do get stronger when they kill and eat other mushrooms.
When they do, they also drop better mushroom meat when they die. A really good fighter will make really good food.

ExplosiveCrate · Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:43 am

They also make incredibly fearsome creatures if an admin decides to modify them to attack people.

I also believe that they'll eat anything that they kill. That means that the assistants that throw themselves at the mushrooms will only serve to make it stronger.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:05 am #11499

Speaking of which, killer tomatoes that can actually kill when?

Also make something be able to mutate into gatfruit maybe?

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:19 pm #11525

WeeYakk wrote:Also make something be able to mutate into gatfruit maybe?

Ah... Are you shure thats a good idea?

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:44 pm #11594

It's !!FUN!!

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:04 pm #11626

WeeYakk wrote:Also make something be able to mutate into gatfruit maybe?

Yeah, sure man.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:43 pm #11663

Mutate gatfruit by breeding silver slimes.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:42 pm #11916

Let lings hold more than 5 identities at a time.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:43 pm #11918

No, because if that was the case, you could play an entire round without having to transform. Being forced to transform changes it from 'traitor with super powers instead of TC'.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:51 am #12007

except you can easily do the identity retention trick and keep your original identity while still having the extra genomes

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:25 am #12025

Muh sploiting.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:52 am #12062

It's not really an exploit. It's all just game mechanics working as intended in a way that wasn't intended. And it doesn't abuse any bugs or anything.
It's probably not the way things are supposed to be though.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:03 pm #12064

It's a really common technique now since losing your original identity is a huge problem that the game tries to force on you. If there's a simple way to mitigate it then yeahhhh.

Reason it's a huge problem is two things,
1. If you change into someone else, you have mismatching IDs, clothes, backpacks, everything. There's also the fact that you will likely do a bad job pretending to be the person you are.
2. Your original identity is -you-, even if it's an alien pretending to be it, it's still close to you and you'd operate best if you looked like yourself to everyone else.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:33 pm #12090

Yyyyup.

How do you retain your original identity, though?

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:22 pm #12098

iamgoofball wrote:
WeeYakk wrote:Also make something be able to mutate into gatfruit maybe?
Yeah, sure man.

ColonicAcid wrote:

no
nope.
from one packet of gatfruit I managed to make >30 gatfruits and still had 6 seeds from my first plant.
Do not ever add a way to get gatfruits without admin fuckery. It's so horribly broken it would get old fast.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:10 pm #12107

it's ok, it was closed.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:42 am #12227

miggles wrote:It's not really an exploit. It's all just game mechanics working as intended in a way that wasn't intended.

um

that's what an exploit is miggles, seeing as it benefits you.

Munchlax · Post by **Munchlax** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:00 am #12233

That doesn't even make sense.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:30 am #12234

Cipher3 wrote:Yyyyup.

How do you retain your original identity, though?

Get hive channel ability, channel original identity. When you lose your original identity get it back via hive channel.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:06 am #12249

There's a more secure way if you can get a monkeyed human/catatonic person.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:19 am #12253

Which is to sting them with transform sting and then eat them so you get the genome and an ability reset for a double bonus.

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:11 pm #12324

iamgoofball wrote:
miggles wrote:It's not really an exploit. It's all just game mechanics working as intended in a way that wasn't intended.
um

that's what an exploit is miggles, seeing as it benefits you.

it's not an exploit.
it's a use of mechanics that was not foreseen by people.
it's rocket jumping.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:09 am #12617

danno we are on the same wavelength
i had that in my post before i edited it out

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:41 am #12633

No like, I already said why it's an exploit though. It circumvents an intentional balance mechanic, which is not being able to absorb more than 5ish without having to transform, so you're forced to not stealthling and take 50000 hours when it's changeling-only, you have to attack and absorb someone sometime or steal their identity somehow. Changelings that don't have to do that to get the current genome greentext aren't changelings, they're exploiters.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:03 am #12639

Can we just call them skin walkers so we don't have to force this obligation to change once to meet the technical definition of a changeling?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:47 am #12776

>hurr i'm bad at changeling and can't kill w/o ebow or parasting i need 2 explit xd

Fuck off and untick it.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:23 am #12809

>telling people to untick antags because they dont play the way you want them to
v mature
its pretty obvious that the whole "disguise yourself as another person" thing should be worked on
i think the main issue is that lings arent deadly enough on their own to set in the "oh no where did all the crew go" moments most of the time
and disguises would work much better within that environment because you could come and go and be less noticed
disguising accurately also requires you to murder the person 90% of the time unless they're an assistant, and if you're just randomly DNA stealing that might not be feasible when you actually need to disguise
tldr changeling needs a lot of work, we all knew this, lets forget about it for another 4 months as usual

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:27 am #12812

The Shadowling suggestion/implementation from earlier received a very positive reception when it was used on Sybil a few weeks ago, it gave the Changeling (Shadowling) more slaying power, making it a deadly threat, yet incentivised it to remain hidden in the shadows and hunt for alone Humans as the Shadowling could be overpowerd by a small group of people.

It also brought people back into the round since absorbing people turned them into Underlings (Undershadows) that were weaker forms of the main Shadowling.

In my opinion, THAT is the best solution to Changeling if any solution is needed.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:33 am #12815

I don't like the idea of a ling that brings people back.
The entire point of ling is that people go missing and the station starts to get emptier and spookier. This used to work with oldling sometimes when lings got very powerful and deathstung everyone and ate them.
Giving the ling its own personal army basically turns ling into a cult with a leader. I already don't like that they get spiders. It doesn't really make sense and they're only there because the ling has literally no other options to sew widespread chaos on its own except if they want to hallusting everyone or something, which is more of a joke than anything.
I'm worried that if we had underlings or anything like that the mode would just turn into lings rushing to eat people to get more and more lings and it basically turns into cult or rev with spooks.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:42 am #12817

>there's an exploit that allows you to circumvent a quite obviously intentional limit
>state that it's intentional design
>"no that's just how you want me to play it, it's not like the game literally tells you that you have to transform before you can extract more genomes or anything which anyone with a shred of common sense would deduct as an intentional design choice!"

Just fuck off with that retarded logic already. I'm not saying ling is good, but that's the way it is right now and circumventing it with an exploit is not akin to fucking rocket jumping, and it's not up to debate. Newling was designed so that while you could extract genomes with simple stings, you couldn't complete the 'extract x amount of genomes objectives' doing only that.

I bet you think gamma adjustments as AI to see in the dark justifies gun_hog's night vision thing too? It's like rocket jumping!

ExplosiveCrate · Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:45 am

miggles wrote:I don't like the idea of a ling that brings people back.
The entire point of ling is that people go missing and the station starts to get emptier and spookier.

The problem is that the station also got more boring. A station slowly going silent isn't a sign that something bad is happening: it's a sign that that people are becoming bored of the round and ghosting/commiting suicide/holing up in their personal fortresses of solitude.

I mean you can't really make things spooky in SS13 without either hiding information about everything and changing things every so often so people don't get used to it (see: goon and their away missions) or through admin intervention (see: PI/TBM's horror rounds).

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:18 am #12860

paprika wrote:>there's an exploit that allows you to circumvent a quite obviously intentional limit
>state that it's intentional design
>"no that's just how you want me to play it, it's not like the game literally tells you that you have to transform before you can extract more genomes or anything which anyone with a shred of common sense would deduct as an intentional design choice!"

Just fuck off with that retarded logic already. I'm not saying ling is good, but that's the way it is right now and circumventing it with an exploit is not akin to fucking rocket jumping, and it's not up to debate. Newling was designed so that while you could extract genomes with simple stings, you couldn't complete the 'extract x amount of genomes objectives' doing only that.

I bet you think gamma adjustments as AI to see in the dark justifies gun_hog's night vision thing too? It's like rocket jumping!

you know rocket jumping circumvented the way maps were designed to be linear and require going up stairs or having areas that were not intended to be reached but guess what
the devs saw that people liked it (or in this case didnt like it) and changed things to adapt to that form of play
arbitrarily saying "this is the way changeling should be and will be" and ignoring emergent gameplay is silly
trying to hold ling to the standard that was set when it was designed as opposed to the standard it has now is equally silly

the discussion of lings reminded me of this pr: https://github.com/NTStation/NTstation13/pull/687 which i merged just now
now DNA sting doesn't give genomes, only identities. i think that will incentivize people who want to use DNA sting to actually transform, and with the required number of genomes lowered below the transformation cap, i dont expect this 'exploit' will be used anymore. anyone who wants to steal an identity will do so of their own accord, and anyone who doesn't, won't.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:18 pm #12878

Yeah that PR literally fixed the exploit I was talking about. So what's your point exactly? You proved yourself wrong. Now, you are forced to absorb people in order to get the green text, and can't bullshit around and exploit to keep away from having to attack anyone and get easy genome greentext.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:22 pm #12881

Stealth is boring as a main antag anyway, it falls into the trap of only being entertaining for the one antag and boring for the rest of the sever population.

In my opinion either the Changeling needs an incentive and actual tools (Shadowling!?!?) to escalate the round and bring it to a conclusion, or it should be deregulated to a sub-antag that only appears in small numbers alongside other antags that can "pull the weight" such as Traitors or Double Agent's (Which already happens).

Once again, a pure stealth antag is BORING for everyone except the antag, all it does is incentive them to avoid killing people, or to silently kill one or two people in a corner and keep them out of the round for another hour or two while the antag runs around doing nothing.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:23 pm #12882

Do monkeys still count?

If not, why? It has a genome, and nothing says HUMAN genome.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:42 pm #12888

Then why can't you absorb corgis?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:34 pm #12907

AseaHeru wrote:Do monkeys still count?

If not, why? It has a genome, and nothing says HUMAN genome.

because thats way too easy