/tg/Station 13

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Malkevin wrote:Reminder that lumni believes that implanting any random asshole makes them as trustworthy as a starting officer

For non-meta reasons, why wouldn't it?

The same reason cult don't implant brigged cultists and scream desperately for holy water while the chaplain's body has already made good progress traveling from the escape airlocks to the derelict.

Speaking of cult, heres the type of powergaming I think is retarded and needs to go.

Cult round, i'm dicking off as the librarian and someone yells they found a tome. So I tell them to bring it to the library. I get my fingerprints all over the damn thing while talking and hand it back. A few minutes later beepsky comes chasing after me and I get dragged to the brig and searched because of my fingerprints on the tome. All cool so far, good on them for actually following up on that.

While i'm being searched for culty things, officer 2 says "Check the headset for a syndicate radio key too."

To be fair, you can get a cult tome from emagging the library computer but i it was a confirmed cult round then that Officer must be part of the Special Needs diversity program NanoTraesn apparently runs

Saegrimr wrote:

Malkevin wrote:Reminder that lumni believes that implanting any random asshole makes them as trustworthy as a starting officer

For non-meta reasons, why wouldn't it?

Its accepted that ICly they only prevent brainwashing, they don't prevent personal desires to be a filthy traitor.
Which is why loyalty implants don't deantag traitors and traitor sec/captains are possible if antag is turned on for protected roles.
Sec/Captain not being antags is just due to good old fashioned vetting, background checks, and spying on their every move.

The lore is something we fudge around game mechanics to make them make sense ICly.

I always subscribed to the traitor's being Sleeper Agents with implants of their memories as a Syndicate that trigger at roundstart. Sec and the Captain having loyalty implants prevent them from firing so to speak since none of the implanted roles are capable of being tator tots outside of Admin Abuse

Reminder that Malk is talking out of his ass.

Ad hominem

Overruled. No ass-talking.

Saegrimr wrote:While i'm being searched for culty things, officer 2 says "Check the headset for a syndicate radio key too."

I know I said I would stop posting in this thread but I'd just like to point out that this is the same level of bannable as "HE HAS BROWN SHOES, HARMBATON HE"
or at least it should be

Malkevin wrote:Ad hominem

You made some wild accusation that I can ony assume is strawmanning something(s) I've in some other unrelated thread at some point, that is unrelated to what we are discussing here, so yes.

You are talking out of your ass.

We discussed the common practice of implanting sec infiltrators and expecting everything to be fine in depth not too long ago.
I said it was retarded, you said it was fine.

>Not too long ok

Ok.
What you said is you refused to implant new recruit sec 'incase they were antags'.

I argued that it made more sense to loyalty implant them because -
A: If you see a sec officer without an implant you are going to think they're an imposter/ling
B: On the flip side, if said unimplanted officer DOES get replaced/eaten by a ling, you won't be able to tell because hey, the original didn't have an implant!
C: If you really were suspicious of the new recruit (which begs the question why the fuck are you letting them in your sec force if you don't trust them), you can just tracking/chem implant them IN ADDITION to a loyalty implant.

This is very different from what you were implying, but please, find my posts where I say that I blindly trust people just because I put an implant in them.

I'm starting to see why most people Loathe Lumi.

Tornadium wrote:I'm starting to see why most people Loathe Lumi.

Lumi is right on the implants though.

Also unimplanted officers can be easily converted to rev/gang/cult when they were fine before.


also completely distrusting people without prior reason because they "might" be antags is just plain boring. Yes I know damn well that traitors regularly join sec, but ousting the occasional traitor from the force is part of the fun.

are you still going on about that bullshit? we've been over that shit holy fuck

Revs can't convert sec officers because they're wearing glasses.
Gang has a tool to break loyalty implants anyway, and probably aren't going to randomly pen sec officers on the chance they're unimplanted.
Cult conversion is apparently too hard for people to do, so they're probably going to mash you into construct paste anyway.


Oh, and guess who the first people I'm going to stick loyalty implants into when the round is revealed to be a Convert 'Em Up.
If you're not adjusting your tactics to deal with threats as they arise you're a strategic failure.


If someone job swaps to security 9 times out of 10 they are a traitor, its not my job to make your life as an antag easier - in fact its the complete opposite.

Malkevin wrote:Revs can't convert sec officers because they're wearing glasses.
Gang has a tool to break loyalty implants anyway, and probably aren't going to randomly pen sec officers on the chance they're unimplanted.
Cult conversion is apparently too hard for people to do, so they're probably going to mash you into construct paste anyway.


Oh, and guess who the first people I'm going to stick loyalty implants into when the round is revealed to be a Convert 'Em Up.
If you're not adjusting your tactics to deal with threats as they arise you're a strategic failure.


If someone job swaps to security 9 times out of 10 they are a traitor, its not my job to make your life as an antag easier - in fact its the complete opposite.

Revs frequently steal sechuds and they can cuff you to remove those glasses just fine.
And if that officer gets his implant broken by gangs YOU KNOW HE IS CONVERTED BECAUSE HE NO LONGER HAS AN IMPLANT.

Not implanting makes people impersonating sec officers just by taking their gear easy as fuck. If all officers are implanted the unimplanted one instantly stands out as an imposter.

Ive caught multiple lings impersonating sec because they didn't have implants. Not implanting recruits makes that basically impossible because you got multiple unimplanted officers running around.

Good luck getting people to report for implanting halfway through a round. The confusion about whether or not people should have an implant remains and confusion kills when playing sec.


If you just inform the security team that someone is a new recruit there is no downside to implanting except using up one.

I can't disagree that implanting is pretty key to catching out gangs or lings or people impersonating.

However, it doesn't do jack shit to stop Security being compromised. I feel that's the point that Malk was making.

Just because you implant some random fucker or traitor doesn't make that person trustworthy.

If they join as sec or are round start sec then they are, if not you simply cannot trust them.

CPTANT wrote:If you just inform the security team that someone is a new recruit there is no downside to implanting except using up one.

That only works if the sec team is full at round start (in which case you'd probably deny their transfer anyway) because in all likelihood you're only going to inform security of it once and then forget until it comes up again, I'd be incredibly surprised if new arrivals are informed of transferees every time they arrive in their dribs and drabs

Infiltrators and Impersonators are two completely different issues.
Infiltrators are people trying to pass themselves off as being as trustworthy as a normal round start officer
Impersonators are people attempting to pretend to be someone that is a round start officer.

Unsurprisingly this was brought up last time, and I said it (before Lumi) was easily resolved by using a tracker implant and/or chemical implant.
That way you've got the best of both worlds, you know they're not a round start officer because they don't have a loyalty implant, and you know its not someone impersonating a transferee because they're missing the tracker/chem implant.

Revs frequently steal sechuds and they can cuff you to remove those glasses just fine.

You're moving the goal posts, you said not having an implant makes them easy to convert - as in as easy as any other member of the crew.
SecHud prevents drive by flashes.

If they've got an officer down long enough to remove their sec hud then you've gotten them down long enough to remove their headset, cuff them, and then do loyalty implant removal surgery; because you've probably critted them if they haven't blabbed over the radio at being attacked.

Good luck getting people to report for implanting halfway through a round. The confusion about whether or not people should have an implant remains and confusion kills when playing sec.

You're doing it wrong.

You don't just ask them to come in to get implanted, you drag them back in forcefully.
And if they resist you summarily execute them as a suspected enemy agent, this is permissible under the rules because they're armed and dangerous and you don't need to take no chances in rev/gang/cult.

Tornadium wrote: However, it doesn't do jack shit to stop Security being compromised. I feel that's the point that Malk was making.

Exactly.

At the time I made the original thread in March (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... t=+loyalty) it was incredibly common to see traitors get a job transfer to security, get implanted, and then get the same level of trust as an actual officer whilst they went around making false arrests.

Now the reason the impersonator thing didn't occur to me at first was because I simply outright deny any transfer ins to security, but I did instantly bring up the alternative implants when that point was brought up.

I said this months ago and I'll say it again since its relevant again.

Loyalty Implants are good for ensuring a traitor/changeling/whoever is not impersonating a ROUND START security officer, its also very powerful in Rev (and ehhh in Gang) in deconverting and holding onto loyal station personal. Loyalty Implants are useless aside from those two points.

Tracking and Chemical implants however are very powerful, and my defacto go to, when dealing with people who enlist in security during the round from the civilian population. In 99% of circumstances I will always reject someone trying to be promoted into security but in the 1% of times I let it slide (usually due to me trusting the person due to in game events or if its been forced on me by a higher authority and I can't be assed to spend 30 minutes contesting it) I'll always double tap a Chem and Track implant in them.

Once I was HOS on a lowpop Sybil one night, and a person got arrested, well she had her changeling cloak armor on that hides her from AI. I then ahelp and ask if it'd be meta if I saw and knew she was a ling

Well me being dicked over plenty of times of my antag rounds, I actually released them after their sentence.

No idea if they got their green text but I felt good about not ruining someone's night.

You should have dunked her immediately.

Remove alien scum

Also, lings are shit, and even if I was RPing Officer Friendly I'd still incite the crew to form a lynch mob on the inhuman beast

iamgoofball wrote:so were my two subtle meme posts talking about how you fucks are off topic not enough

i guess I need to do the "big text angry" meme

this isn't Security VS Antag: The Game: The 3D Experience: On Ice: The Thread, this is "Play2win, why shouldn't I?"

Take your meme-ry and go fuck a handful of spagetti,
It's on topic, antag security relations is literately and specifically what I'm bitching about in the OP.

This discussion is and has been on topic the entire time, right up until you took it off topic to discuss the status of the topic being on or off in the first place.

I stopped reading halfway down the third page but I completely support anyone who refuses to accept security recruits.

1) Lore: The message you get at Code Blue makes it really clear that crew members are not to be trusted

2) Lore: Loyalty implants are mass-produced and deployed to your security team. The syndicate is a large inter-planetary criminal network/corporation. Realistically NT personnel would all be very aware of what loyalty implants worked to protect against, and that means being very aware that implanting a traitor isn't going to stop him.

3) Lore: All those given loyalty implants prior to boarding the station are subject to immense background checks and security clearances that prevent initial teams from being compromised by traitors, changelings, cultists, etc.

4) Meta: If someone wanted to be security at roundstart, they would've selected security, the fact they've had a sudden change of heart moments after arriving on the station is absolutely cause for skepticism.

5) Meta: Bad guys infiltrating security is basically an "iwin" button for any team antags and a virtual guarantee that the rounds going to hell even if its just solo antags. People put way too much faith in the security identity and security basically defaults to "Sec outfit + Implant = I trust this guy with my life and will give him anything he asks for". Accepting and implanting an officer who's an antag is signing your own death warrant. Perma will be released, the armory will be handed out to the cult/lings/etc., people will be arrested and then disappear over and over, loyal security will be butchered the moment theyre alone with the rogue officer - which leads to further dispersal of security equipment+access, and pretty soon the station is in a death spiral because the HoS let an assistant join security at roundstart.

Oldman Robustin wrote:People put way too much faith in the security identity and security basically defaults to "Sec outfit + Implant = I trust this guy with my life and will give him anything he asks for".

Everything but this makes sense.

Most people trust security about as far as they can throw them, especially those of us who were around for antag sec.

Shitcurity has been on the rise with a "Because I could, I should" attitude, with a dash of powergaming from what I've seen of late. A crew member has a ripley? Better carry that Ion rifle with me at all times.

Sounds like its my time to return.

The endgame for the crew as a whole -- including security -- has always been to survive, not to get as much redtext as possible. You SURVIVE the events of Space Station 13, you don't abate them. That's the whole point of the fucking game. The only arguable exceptions to this are wizard (where redtext is the roundend), revolution, gang, nukeops and cult. Surviving does not mean going out of your way to hunt all the antags 'just because'.

I don't know where this whole 'win/lose' attitude came from, but it's certainly not SS13. If you want to 'win' go play, fuck, idk... Counterstrike or something. If you want to survive crazy shit, play SS13.