/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 8:27 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

John_Oxford wrote:its not the fact that your dcmaing them im against

i don't really care, i just want to play F13, this is directly affecting it and therefore it is bad

loads of people feel this way

Then those loads of people, yourself included, can convince them to stop being law-breaking faggots.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 8:47 pm**

tacolizard wrote:What's godring saying about our code being stolen? From what i've heard, the original ss13 source was stolen, so is he making a valid claim? Also, what exactly is his argument and why is it wrong?

That is an ancient story, it's a story that affects anyone that plays this game, and generally legality is hard to argue because this all happened 2003-2006 between associates who likely used no licensing whatsoever.

The fact is Goons released their code, Goonstation r4407, which is what TG(and many others) is based upon and grew from there. This is all highlighted in our history page on the wiki.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 10:46 pm**

The fact that code might be stolen originally does not afaik affect the license to code I or others have contributed in good faith under the AGPL or GPL licenses, so while they could claim that yes, some of the code might not have a clear license due to it's past, I think we have a strong legal claim for the licensing of all the code that has been contributed after that point and can be proven via git history.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

Posted: **Mon May 01, 2017 10:54 pm**

Lmao at that last paragraph in the history page

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 2:44 am**

As far as I know the "least incorrect" narrative of the SS13 code being "stolen" was that someone Exadv1 trusted leaked the source code without his blessing and he was understandably a little salty about it. However later when he saw what became of the game because of the leak he was retroactively fine with it.

Probably all still heresy but the point is the one guy who reasonably could DMCA SS13 as a whole into oblivion is a cool guy who doesn't mind how things panned out.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 3:42 am**

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 3:52 am**

i want my money for goofmed/tesla code/fastprocess

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:50 am**

>Generous code | Free for all
>Chain unbroken | Moneys Greed
>Hand closed | Tensions Rise
>Madagascar calls | Shut everything down

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 6:04 am**

oranges wrote:The fact that code might be stolen originally does not afaik affect the license to code I or others have contributed in good faith under the AGPL or GPL licenses, so while they could claim that yes, some of the code might not have a clear license due to it's past, I think we have a strong legal claim for the licensing of all the code that has been contributed after that point and can be proven via git history.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer.

Basically, how it works is that the tgstation repo provides a combined work, with each piece being owned by their coder, but tgstation having ownership over the collection as a whole. this is why gpl talks about combined work so much, because it covers this exact situation.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 6:04 am**

Incoming wrote:As far as I know the "least incorrect" narrative of the SS13 code being "stolen" was that someone Exadv1 trusted leaked the source code without his blessing and he was understandably a little salty about it. However later when he saw what became of the game because of the leak he was retroactively fine with it.

Probably all still heresy but the point is the one guy who reasonably could DMCA SS13 as a whole into oblivion is a cool guy who doesn't mind how things panned out.

He gave retroactive license to goonstation to release, so goonstation's r4407 release is legit. The only part it gets shaky on is I think goon licensed the entirety of the codebase under cc-by-sa-nc, where as we only license the art assets under creative commons (and it's only cc-by-sa).

This has never really been addressed or looked into, at the least, goon might have the ability to make us re-license all legacy art assets under cc-by-sa-nc, at the most they could make us relicense the codebase under cc-by-sa-nc, but this seems unlikely, as cc-by-sa-nc doesn't properly take the nuances of code into account, modifications to the work is required to be cc-by-sa-nc, but collections containing the work only require the part that contains the work be cc-by-sa-nc.

If my reading of that is correct, /tg/station's first commit would become cc-by-sa-nc, but all further commits would merely contain cc-by-sa-nc code that as a collective is gpl (later agpl) and on their own (via git history) cc-by-sa-nc with further commits being gpl (later agpl).

IE: our licensing situation is either 60% legit, or 100% legit.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 6:52 am**

As for the dmca:

Long story short, fallout 13 claimed fair use and either we actually file a lawsuit against godsring or byond has to reinstate it after 14 days. Obviously i'm going to choose lawsuit. I'm waiting for a email back from the FSF on some technical questions I have for the lawsuit, and i'll likely have more questions.

The jurisdiction would likely be the federal court in san francisco, California. I have family in north cal and I grew up in mid cal, It would be a stretch, but I could do this entire thing pro-se and avoid the legal cost of a lawyer (assuming I don't get a summary judgement and avoid even needing to go out there.).

My argument is likely to be that they can not claim fair use when they use so much of our work, and when they take payments for perks.

They also were before saying they could do modules and it would allow them to keep the modules closed source, but, well, let me just let Mr Stallman answer that for you: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.ht ... uleLicense

After I get some questions answered I'll start issuing more dmca's. The RU version of the server is hosted by OVH.FR, they have copyright law. I might have to fork out money for a legal translator but submitting a french version of a DMCA does seem to be possible.

And to anybody partial to take fallout13's side on this matter: Listen up, I'm talking to you now.

All they have to do is open source, and this all ends. That's it. Open source does not mean they have to accept pull requests, or even take other people's code submissions, it just means that the current code the server is running has to be available to the public.

Hell, they could even add an additional term requiring that forks not pretend to be "official fallout13" servers, ie, require that they specify that they are an unofficial server in announcements and the byond hub (as long as this applies to the running server and not the code itself, it is unlikely to clash with agpl.)

This is the crowning point of Open Source, that if you build upon the works of open source software, you have to do so as open software. You can not take what is now almost 10 Years now of hard work by half a thousand different developers and try to claim it as yours. It is all of ours, because all of us worked on it, and anything based upon that has to pay in kind.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 7:30 am**

GOD SPEED MSO!

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 8:07 am**

This is more than popcorn-worthy.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 1:22 pm**

good luck sweetie pie
fix the store soon please also

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:26 pm**

They banned me from the discord

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:27 pm**

Just wanted my bottle deposit

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:36 pm**

If this goes to court, we HAVE to livestream it.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:37 pm**

What exactly could happen if this goes to court? What would happen if either side wins?

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:49 pm**

This looks pretty juicy but software licensing ain't my bag. I've only dealt with more traditional categories of IP. When you file the complaint, post it and I might be able to get some input from people who are actually qualified.

TheColdTurtle wrote:What exactly could happen if this goes to court? What would happen if either side wins?

As a lawyer I can tell you that when legal complaints are filed in court then DECISIONS ARE MADE and those decisions can have LEGAL IMPLICATIONS.

That will be $300.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 4:57 pm**

Fiz Bump wrote:If this goes to court, we HAVE to livestream it.

This isn't the sort of thing that when it goes to court it makes for good TV. Its generally just a long series of hearings and most of the legal legwork is done on paper. Hearings generally just devolve into motions and cross-motions before both lawyers bop off for a beer. Further, I really doubt either side is sufficiently motivated to take this all the way through the legal system. A suit like this, depending on fee agreements and local jurisdiction costs, can be exceedingly expensive. Where F13 is an upstart server without financial backing and intentions to cover its costs with perk purchasing, I really doubt they'd even survive past the discovery phase.

MSO, when and if this goes to a lawsuit though, I'd be very interested to see copies of the court doccuments filed by either side, either by docket number or in PDF. Not because ethics rules would allow me to participate in your representation but just for my own edification in seeing the exact method the courts take at weighing this sort of issue at litigation. Its one of the few things they don't really have time to cover in law school.

Oldman Robustin wrote:This looks pretty juicy but software licensing ain't my bag. I've only dealt with more traditional categories of IP. When you file the complaint, post it and I might be able to get some input from people who are actually qualified.

I always forget Robustin and I share a profession.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:00 pm**

I dont have access but in the post where he was applying he put 15 as his age and "active time any days i dont have high school lol"

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:05 pm**

Why the fuck would you admit to being underage ahahahaha. Is he banned from here now?

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:13 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Fiz Bump wrote:If this goes to court, we HAVE to livestream it.
This isn't the sort of thing that when it goes to court it makes for good TV.

Bruh, I study arguably the most boring field of biology. Even if it's just regular court proceedings I want to see Curious MSO Goes to Court.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:14 pm**

TheColdTurtle wrote:Why the fuck would you admit to being underage ahahahaha. Is he banned from here now?

no he's a trial min

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:16 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote:As for the dmca:

Long story short, fallout 13 claimed fair use and either we actually file a lawsuit against godsring or byond has to reinstate it after 14 days. Obviously i'm going to choose lawsuit. I'm waiting for a email back from the FSF on some technical questions I have for the lawsuit, and i'll likely have more questions.

The jurisdiction would likely be the federal court in san francisco, California. I have family in north cal and I grew up in mid cal, It would be a stretch, but I could do this entire thing pro-se and avoid the legal cost of a lawyer (assuming I don't get a summary judgement and avoid even needing to go out there.).

My argument is likely to be that they can not claim fair use when they use so much of our work, and when they take payments for perks.

They also were before saying they could do modules and it would allow them to keep the modules closed source, but, well, let me just let Mr Stallman answer that for you: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.ht ... uleLicense

After I get some questions answered I'll start issuing more dmca's. The RU version of the server is hosted by OVH.FR, they have copyright law. I might have to fork out money for a legal translator but submitting a french version of a DMCA does seem to be possible.

And to anybody partial to take fallout13's side on this matter: Listen up, I'm talking to you now.

All they have to do is open source, and this all ends. That's it. Open source does not mean they have to accept pull requests, or even take other people's code submissions, it just means that the current code the server is running has to be available to the public.

Hell, they could even add an additional term requiring that forks not pretend to be "official fallout13" servers, ie, require that they specify that they are an unofficial server in announcements and the byond hub (as long as this applies to the running server and not the code itself, it is unlikely to clash with agpl.)

This is the crowning point of Open Source, that if you build upon the works of open source software, you have to do so as open software. You can not take what is now almost 10 Years now of hard work by half a thousand different developers and try to claim it as yours. It is all of ours, because all of us worked on it, and anything based upon that has to pay in kind.

Good work.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:17 pm**

MSO is the hero of open source

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 5:20 pm**

That does raise the question though, since I'm not really familiar with GPL/AGPL. If the ownership is a joint ownership of X coder-contributors over 10+ years, who "owns" the code sufficient to claim legal standing to sue on its rights? I presume the actual GPL/AGPL makes some effort to address this but I just haven't had the time to look it up and asking is easier.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 7:27 pm**

https://tgstation13.org/misc/dmca-fallo ... dsring.txt

https://tgstation13.org/misc/dmca-fallo ... ounter.txt

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 7:35 pm**

Honestly, someone should tell Bethesda about the 2d ripoff of their IP. I'm sure they'll love the rape feature.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 7:47 pm**

DrPillzRedux wrote:Honestly, someone should tell Bethesda about the 2d ripoff of their IP. I'm sure they'll love the rape feature.

but then all of fo13 would be gone and that would be kinda sad again

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 7:58 pm**

how to break the law

go closed source

use a private ip

make a server thats stock /tg/

make it so you can't spawn and in big red letters its the ip to the f13 server

fuck the police coming straight from nevada

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 8:10 pm**

>someone is actually going to take legal spessmen to court

holy shit

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 8:13 pm**

let's not forget the fallout series is a bethesda IP so uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 8:21 pm**

Ah, finally some quality justiceporn

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:37 pm**

Against my better judgment I'm contemplating getting involved. I've read the AGPL3 and realized the license makes this dispute less technical than I initially thought, and I would downright enjoy tearing apart a fair use defense.

Plus I think it would give me a basis to put "Space Lawyer" on my business card.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:42 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote:Against my better judgment I'm contemplating getting involved. I've read the AGPL3 and realized the license makes this dispute less technical than I initially thought, and I would downright enjoy tearing apart a fair use defense.

Plus I think it would give me a basis to put "Space Lawyer" on my business card.

Remember that spesslaw requires cooking copious amounts of faggots.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:44 pm**

Fallout station BTFO, releasing code publicly.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:44 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote:Against my better judgment I'm contemplating getting involved. I've read the AGPL3 and realized the license makes this dispute less technical than I initially thought, and I would downright enjoy tearing apart a fair use defense.

Plus I think it would give me a basis to put "Space Lawyer" on my business card.

You were cucked by levelheadedness

I have been informed that GodRing will be releasing the source.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:51 pm**

cedarbridge wrote: This isn't the sort of thing that when it goes to court it makes for good TV. Its generally just a long series of hearings and most of the legal legwork is done on paper. Hearings generally just devolve into motions and cross-motions before both lawyers bop off for a beer. Further, I really doubt either side is sufficiently motivated to take this all the way through the legal system. A suit like this, depending on fee agreements and local jurisdiction costs, can be exceedingly expensive. Where F13 is an upstart server without financial backing and intentions to cover its costs with perk purchasing, I really doubt they'd even survive past the discovery phase.

dibs on being called as a witness then WGW

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 9:52 pm**

>a chance to launch my own personal deathclaw erp server soon

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 10:07 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Against my better judgment I'm contemplating getting involved. I've read the AGPL3 and realized the license makes this dispute less technical than I initially thought, and I would downright enjoy tearing apart a fair use defense.

Plus I think it would give me a basis to put "Space Lawyer" on my business card.
You were cucked by levelheadedness

I have been informed that GodRing will be releasing the source.

Too late, I can taste blood in the water. Time to go after Colonial Marines for violating our Creative Commons license.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 10:11 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote:
MrStonedOne wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Against my better judgment I'm contemplating getting involved. I've read the AGPL3 and realized the license makes this dispute less technical than I initially thought, and I would downright enjoy tearing apart a fair use defense.

Plus I think it would give me a basis to put "Space Lawyer" on my business card.
You were cucked by levelheadedness

I have been informed that GodRing will be releasing the source.

Too late, I can taste blood in the water. Time to go after Colonial Marines for violating our Creative Commons license.

>robustin doing good
>for ss13
this'll be the day

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 10:18 pm**

Based mso

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 10:21 pm**

Robustin is a good boy who dindu nuffin, don't bully him

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 10:40 pm**

InsaneHyena wrote:Robustin is a good boy who dindu nuffin, don't bully him

he literally offered to help opensource lizards at the expense of russians, of course he dindu

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 11:04 pm**

Keep up the momentum, MSO.

CM next.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2017 11:22 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote:https://tgstation13.org/misc/dmca-fallo ... dsring.txt

https://tgstation13.org/misc/dmca-fallo ... ounter.txt

I agree with Robustin. Just based on these your average 1L could handle this. He made a good move in kissing the ring when he could.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 1:22 am**

spriting for this project was a mistake

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 8:17 am**

Danowar wrote:spriting for this project was a mistake

if possible, would you sue them to have your work removed?

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 9:16 am**

I could probably take my assets back at any time. I'm just going to wait for now though. All I would want is proper credit if it actually goes open source.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2017 9:17 am**

Danowar wrote:I could probably take my assets back at any time. I'm just going to wait for now though. All I would want is proper credit if it actually goes open source.

Yeah, I guess.

Taking them back too early would just be plain spriteful.

/tg/Station 13

MSO DCMA F13 Claim?

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