/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

I thought STP was doing a pretty good job, no sure what this recent absenteeism is all about. I guess sometimes real life prevents spessman stuff, although that is not a great excuse. I think the headmins all knew what they were getting in to.

NikNakFlak wrote:My point is, it's entitling a select group of people over another group with no justification. It works in all directions. If admins got another vote, it would giving them a vote that the players dont have, and vice versa. An un-balanced system. No group should get a second vote for that reason.

Admins are all players.
Coders are all (mostly) players.
Players are players.

Therefore, giving more votes to the players does in no way give a 'group of people entitlement over another group'.

Admins can vote in the admin vote then vote as a player in the player votes.

Except under our current rules they can not, because their votes are filtered out

Then just change that as well, no reason not to.

Wyzack wrote:I thought STP was doing a pretty good job, no sure what this recent absenteeism is all about. I guess sometimes real life prevents spessman stuff, although that is not a great excuse. I think the headmins all knew what they were getting in to.

more like real lifeweb amirite

Stickymayhem wrote:

Wyzack wrote:I thought STP was doing a pretty good job, no sure what this recent absenteeism is all about. I guess sometimes real life prevents spessman stuff, although that is not a great excuse. I think the headmins all knew what they were getting in to.

more like real lifeweb amirite

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

For srs? That makes me a little sad

lumipharon wrote:Then just change that as well, no reason not to.

The reasoning is that letting admins vote in the admin-vote and then also the player vote means they get WAY more voting power than a regular player whereas with the current situation, at least the bonus voting power is merely a reduced voting pool.

An0n3 wrote:Make all three headmin votes admin votes.

The players have the worst voting record of all the groups. They voted for me and they voted for HBL (no offense but you understand why I would say that). The admin picks are usually the best (Intigracy, Ikarrus).

Players voted for you because you told big fibs in your election speech and more importantly because if we didn't vote for you ikarus wouldn't win the admin vote ( because he'd have already won the player vote) and so the admins would've elected someone who was terrible (i forget who that was)

I do recall there was a large push by people to vote for Anon to ensure Ikkarus would win the admin vote because there was a third admin that people really did not want to be in a position of power who would have likely had a good shot at winning the admin vote. Can't recall the name but that's the facts.

I'm confused what the point of this thread is? What are we trying to accomplish here?

Undirected babbling

Steelpoint wrote:I do recall there was a large push by people to vote for Anon to ensure Ikkarus would win the admin vote because there was a third admin that people really did not want to be in a position of power who would have likely had a good shot at winning the admin vote. Can't recall the name but that's the facts.

Either Bluespace or HG, if I recall correctly.

Malkevin wrote:-snip-

I'm not going to bother to refute that because you're only supporting my point.

A big fat jerk who is also a liar could easily game the system when players are allowed to vote, because they're incredibly near-sighted when it comes to the administration itself and what it needs/takes to do a good job. They just vote on favoritism.

Look at the pre-polls for Sabatt during the last election. Fucking hilarious. Guy hasn't played in over a year and a half, writes a short essay on how mad he is and how he is going to get revenge for admin abuses that happened years ago, and people ate that shit up.

Some players are smart enough to see through that crap sure but history has shown us that most definitely aren't, and most is what matters when voting.

When a big company needs a new executive do they go to their customer base and ask them all to go find someone for them? No. They look at their own employees and human resources to make that decision. Because those people know how that company works and what it needs to succeed. The customers just know they really like to drink Pepsi over Coke.

Sabbat admitted to dicking with the polls through proxies.

source? I think that deserves looking into.

Straw polls, I doubt anyone cares about them

We could assign the third vote to a council of "electors".
Every group (player, admin, coder) could select (based on merit hopefully) a few electors in equal numbers.
Then they would vote together.
Or something like that.

Pro:
- mass of players dont overwhelm the other groups
- coders arent left out

Con:
- bureaucracy
- some people would not be satisfied with something about this and this would lead to others shouting MUH DRAMA at them and whatever

representative democracy is shit

The more complexity you add the more potentiality for people to incite drama you create.

Work towards simpler relationships, not more complicated ones.

I don't even believe in democracy anymore now that David Cameron is one.

Let's just go dictatorship and I'll pick headmins from now on.

Stickymayhem wrote:I don't even believe in democracy anymore now that David Cameron is one.

Let's just go dictatorship and I'll pick headmins from now on.

i agree with this

I will only support TGstation's transition to a dictatorship if someone I personally like becomes Führer.

>only admins can vote for headmins
>headmins control who are admins

No matter how dumb you think most of the playerbase is (which honestly isnt far from the truth), only admins voting for headmins is a terrible idea in principal alone.

lumipharon wrote:>only admins can vote for headmins
>headmins control who are admins

No matter how dumb you think most of the playerbase is (which honestly isnt far from the truth), only admins voting for headmins is a terrible idea in principal alone.

Why? Our admins are already a super insular group who pick their peers. Deciding that they get to pick their bosses too isn't that far fetched, especially considering we've never to my knowledge had a non-admin win a headmin spot.

And I would never expect a non admin to win headmin. Who the fuck would trust some guy that isn't even an admin to be HEADmin?

But if only admins vote, then you've literally got a system where the people voted into power control who can vote at all. At that point why even have a vote?

lumipharon wrote:But if only admins vote, then you've literally got a system where the people voted into power control who can vote at all. At that point why even have a vote?

I'm not understanding the distinction between what you've laid out & our current system.
And there's still a point in having an election, even if you make a vote admin only, it still serves as a referendum and a way to cycle out headmins when someone gets sick of the job or whatever.

lumipharon wrote:>only admins can vote for headmins
>headmins control who are admins

No matter how dumb you think most of the playerbase is (which honestly isnt far from the truth), only admins voting for headmins is a terrible idea in principal alone.

Not sure what you're trying to say, this is how coderbus works - and everything with that is a-okay

Coding makes you a coder.
HG can't de-coder people (as far as I'm aware).

the administration should be entitled to a certain degree of guaranteed representation

however they should be a minority

Coding makes you a contributor.
Contributors are to the codebase as players are to the server - they can't vote in the coder election, it was maintainers and up last time.

And HG can block people from git hub.

lumipharon wrote:Coding makes you a coder.
HG can't de-coder people (as far as I'm aware).

yes he can

as a headcoder he can ban people from the github therefore de-codering them

although in general just an irc ban from #coderbus works just fine

Malkevin wrote:Coding makes you a contributor.
Contributors are to the codebase as players are to the server - they can't vote in the coder election, it was maintainers and up last time.

And HG can block people from git hub.

emptyquoting because this is ++true

HG was removed as headcoder due to inactivity.

Well past tense then.

No real reason admin elected candidates would be higher quality anyway. Coders plainly displayed they don't care about the vote.

Since players typically elect admins anyway a randomly picked admin from the list of nominated admins might be second best to the player vote.

Does away with the concerns about micro cults of personality or whatever it is that will fool those dumb players every time definitely nothing a clever admin would fall for!
Also far superior to the triple admin vote circle jerk feedback loop of mins for mins for mins.

In case people missed it:

MrStonedOne wrote:my vote, the host vote, will be going to the headmins next election where they can either give it to coderbus, give it to the player base or admins as a second vote, or unanimously pick a non-current headmin. Failing any agreement on those options, I'll just pick somebody

F

Lock it up? That was the whole point of this thread anyway.