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Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:00 am
by cedarbridge
Lets be honest, apart from comfy late night rounds, extended sans events is usually more destructive than actual traitor rounds. What needs to change to change that? Is it a code issue? A culture issue? Are admins just not bonking enough heads? What would it take for a round of extended to be both interesting and not a total clusterfuck?
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:59 am
by PKPenguin321
the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:22 am
by Floiven
Perhaps tie some sort of PvE conflict together with the station objectives, so that if the round goes on long enough (enough for the objective to be completed without necessarily rushing it), the crew is equipped to tackle a foe or situation that the goal is preparing them for. An easy example would be meteors+other space hazards, given the objective is the meteor shield.
Maybe fighting off an invasion force ex. portal storm for the DNA Vault (They've come to steal your results, use your superpowers to defeat the enemy!)
BSA, an invading ship near the station ex. pirates, or a rival station is firing upon the station, fire back with your hopefully superior weaponry!
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:23 am
by onleavedontatme
PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:25 pm
by Bawhoppennn
PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
I suppose it actually matters what you're playing the game for. That's why bay people can have fun doing 4hour extended every other round.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:33 pm
by Dr_bee
Bawhoppennn wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
I suppose it actually matters what you're playing the game for. That's why bay people can have fun doing 4hour extended every other round.
I actually enjoy slow traitor or extended rounds where the round lasts around and hour or hour and a half. It gives enough time to actually use alot of the neat stuff that can be made, as well as time to do projects.
Also side antags like abductors tend to actually spawn during extended rounds.
If people really want extended spiced up, just add traitors to the side antag spawn list or something. That way the round stays slow but not boring.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:12 pm
by ColonicAcid
people are a bunch of babies that either physically can't or just can't be bothered to make their own fun/stories unless it involves half the station blowing up and you and half a dozen of other chuckle fucks running at the traitors so you can be the robust hero that you always wanted to be.
considering just how much shit there is to do in this game it is not a "fundamental" problem as to why smooth brained retards can't handle not shitting up the station when they know there isn't antags, it's a case of we have watered down the population of this server to the lowest common denominator. what should happen is people should make the effort to make their own fun, but nearly everyone in this server EXPECTS fun to come to them without any work. It's a two way street, you can't expect to get anything out of the round if you don't put anything into it.
there was a crossroad a few years back when the server population on both servers was low, it was either put the server on the hub and get a bigger population at the price of destroying any and all culture other than "LOL VALIDS" or stay with a stagnant population whilst keeping the culture.
you can't keep the same rules whilst having to deal with people from the hub. let's begin with the fact that first of all this fucking game is niche, it's not for everyone but it has gotten such huge publicity and nearly all the stories that were published in big game websites were always about "EXPLOSIONS MURDER FLYING SPACE CARP AND PEOPLE DYING." People came to this game to replicate that. Right now this server is the equivalent of ss13 terrorist hunt, except you can't have a dumb character name like "xXNarutoSpaceKillerXx".
People like to complain about baystation because their rules are draconian but unfortunately majority of ss13 players are actual bumblefuck retards who can barely follow 3 basic AI laws so it's no fucking big surprise bay has to have those types of rules for the environment they want to set.
I mean tbh i write these posts because i care about this game and this server, i played on #2 for like 3 years straight, every single fucking day. I spent so many hours on this game that it's hard to let go of what it was, though i feel like by now i'm the last of a dying breed in terms of actually caring and wanting good roleplay instead of people playing self inserts and dropping everything they're doing as soon as someone even speaks of an antag. I feel like an old man smacking his walking cane against the walls and grumbling.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:14 pm
by ColonicAcid
also can someone run a poll on the server asking how many people have actually played a tabletop rpg.
it would be interesting to know what percentage of the server nowadays actually has.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:27 pm
by PKPenguin321
Bawhoppennn wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
I suppose it actually matters what you're playing the game for. That's why bay people can have fun doing 4hour extended every other round.
You can absolutely enjoy direct player interaction and only that, and the way Bay does it is by having a textbook of rules to restrict your in-game actions to what are basically the bare minimum, which I feel is the type of "fundamental change" I described.
The fact is that this kind of fun of direct player interaction isn't enjoyed by everybody on the server, and even on its own isn't enjoyable indefinitely unless something gives you a reason to interact. Even Bay has antagonists because without them to create some form of conflict now and then, rounds would get stale.
IMO, the definition of medium RP is that you can have these enjoyable direct player interactions while also having a sizable amount of violent conflict, and I feel that the servers do that really well. When extended hits, it's a massive change of pace, because now you have a playerbase that's used to medium-RP levels of gameplay on a mode that only really works with high-RP, meaning that basically half the game that the players are used to is suddenly pulled out from under them. Extended just isn't made for the type of gameplay we've cultivated on our servers. It's not impossible to make extended work, but to do so would require us to, again, fundamentally change the way we do things here, either on a policy or on a code level. As it stands, /tg/station is not fundamentally designed to hold strictly high-RP.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:43 pm
by Durkel
I think part of the issue is that once you've played enough the most fun thing to do is interact with players and unfortunately the most interacting people are capable of is hitting each other with spears.
I had an idea when kor started working on planetstation that we could do a rotating map/gamemode that would affect the next round withe certain goals. Such as if the station manages to complete the meteor shield project then one the next round (which would be on a ship traveling to planetstation) the ship would have said shield. The idea would be the give players an incentive to not go around banging toolboxes off each other and instead have an outlet of something constructive and useful for the next round.
I can't code for shit anyway so the best we're going to do is just ban the worst shitters and tolerate the rest.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:09 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
PKPenguin321 wrote:Bawhoppennn wrote:PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
I suppose it actually matters what you're playing the game for. That's why bay people can have fun doing 4hour extended every other round.
You can absolutely enjoy direct player interaction and only that, and the way Bay does it is by having a textbook of rules to restrict your in-game actions to what are basically the bare minimum, which I feel is the type of "fundamental change" I described.
The fact is that this kind of fun of direct player interaction isn't enjoyed by everybody on the server, and even on its own isn't enjoyable indefinitely unless something gives you a reason to interact. Even Bay has antagonists because without them to create some form of conflict now and then, rounds would get stale.
IMO, the definition of medium RP is that you can have these enjoyable direct player interactions while also having a sizable amount of violent conflict, and I feel that the servers do that really well. When extended hits, it's a massive change of pace, because now you have a playerbase that's used to medium-RP levels of gameplay on a mode that only really works with high-RP, meaning that basically half the game that the players are used to is suddenly pulled out from under them. Extended just isn't made for the type of gameplay we've cultivated on our servers. It's not impossible to make extended work, but to do so would require us to, again, fundamentally change the way we do things here, either on a policy or on a code level. As it stands, /tg/station is not fundamentally designed to hold strictly high-RP.
I wouldn't say extended promoted high rp, it promotes
noncombat rp which is the least popular kind of rp on tg and the most popular in bay
and because someones gonna say whats combat rp that would be more like: clown slips someone so they call him a moron and he takes their shoes so they chase him around the station yelling at him and it causes a fight in the bar which is interrupted by doctor von science walking into the bar, saying "Und now for mein next experiment..." before exploding, blowing the clown into the kitchen where the chef turns his mask into a burger, ties him to a chair and force-feeds it to him while bork-bork-borking. The sort of insane free-wheeling violent stories everyone loves about ss13
edit: actually that situation sounds like most extended rounds ive played
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:04 am
by PKPenguin321
Sure, that sounds fine. People have different definitions for terms like high RP or medium or whatever so you should never assume anybody has the same thing in mind when they say "high RP" as you do. You could say "bay-level RP" instead of "high RP" in my last post if you want a clearer meaning.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:50 am
by captain sawrge
teh game needs more shitters not less
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:04 pm
by Solidyote
I think one of the things that might help getting rid of shitters would be to make them feel "involved" in a round.
What I mean is that, when the game starts you're thrown randomly in a place with lots of things around, but without any ideas where to start or how to be of use and no way of getting feedback on your actions. You might get bored and start building ieds and breaking stuff. Basically, the biggest example of this are assistants. They're supposed to assist others with stuff, but honestly, I think nobody wants them around. Which essentially makes them pretty pointless around the station.
But have you guys noticed how when there are nuke ops and clock cults almost everyone begins working and focusing? Its not because there's people to kill, its because there's a common goal, and you know you can help with it, and even if you fuck up it'll still be useful in the end.
Having some sort of quest system might help. But not something really dull like fetching stuff or something that's not backed by a mechanic, like making sure everyone has a good time or something.. I found that when admins give people a silly custom task, or when some people are re-spawned as a special role, with custom tools for that task its always fun and rewarding usually. So maybe if there was a way to automate this kind of things?
And well, several jobs on the station are very un-involved or boring. Like lawyer, mime, assistant, curator, scientist, atmos tech, janitor, etc.. And getting drunk or being a test subject gets old after a while. So basically when you play those jobs you're usually glorified antag fodder. I feel mechanics could be added to make those jobs more involving, and worthwhile, so people just don't mess around instead.
And another thing I noticed from playing on different servers is that exploration is something that can make things interesting too. Like on goon, there are so many ruins and stuff around the station, with NPCs traders and enemies, and quests. Its makes it harder to get bored.
And well, I really don't think ss13 is centered around killing.. Its more like some kind of a fun social sandbox and a thriller really. Its the "oh shit" moments. Most people on the station aren't even supposed to kill other players, only antags and a few others are cleared to do so. The moment you favor combat mechanics and gameplay over anything else, you'll make it all inherently more tempting for everyone that can't do it.
I definitely think there's stuff that can be done easily within the confines of the game to get rid of "shitters", and it doesn't require changing the entire game. If goon and several other servers can do it, its probably a good sign that its possible. There's always gonna be bad apples though, but I don't think most of the shitters are doing it entirely on purpose.
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:15 am
by bandit
ColonicAcid wrote:people are a bunch of babies that either physically can't or just can't be bothered to make their own fun/stories unless it involves half the station blowing up and you and half a dozen of other chuckle fucks running at the traitors so you can be the robust hero that you always wanted to be.
considering just how much shit there is to do in this game it is not a "fundamental" problem as to why smooth brained retards can't handle not shitting up the station when they know there isn't antags, it's a case of we have watered down the population of this server to the lowest common denominator. what should happen is people should make the effort to make their own fun, but nearly everyone in this server EXPECTS fun to come to them without any work. It's a two way street, you can't expect to get anything out of the round if you don't put anything into it.
there was a crossroad a few years back when the server population on both servers was low, it was either put the server on the hub and get a bigger population at the price of destroying any and all culture other than "LOL VALIDS" or stay with a stagnant population whilst keeping the culture.
you can't keep the same rules whilst having to deal with people from the hub. let's begin with the fact that first of all this fucking game is niche, it's not for everyone but it has gotten such huge publicity and nearly all the stories that were published in big game websites were always about "EXPLOSIONS MURDER FLYING SPACE CARP AND PEOPLE DYING." People came to this game to replicate that. Right now this server is the equivalent of ss13 terrorist hunt, except you can't have a dumb character name like "xXNarutoSpaceKillerXx".
People like to complain about baystation because their rules are draconian but unfortunately majority of ss13 players are actual bumblefuck retards who can barely follow 3 basic AI laws so it's no fucking big surprise bay has to have those types of rules for the environment they want to set.
I mean tbh i write these posts because i care about this game and this server, i played on #2 for like 3 years straight, every single fucking day. I spent so many hours on this game that it's hard to let go of what it was, though i feel like by now i'm the last of a dying breed in terms of actually caring and wanting good roleplay instead of people playing self inserts and dropping everything they're doing as soon as someone even speaks of an antag. I feel like an old man smacking his walking cane against the walls and grumbling.
there's also the issue that our "RP servers" have been more about the flavor of RP that is persistent character relationships (or metacliques at its worst) than (this term is shit but) a per-round narrative. like a 4-years-old roleplay forum vs. a really good session of Fiasco
Re: Bringing an end to the Shitter Safari
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:23 pm
by Gamarr
PKPenguin321 wrote:the game would fundamentally have to be changed so that it's interesting without a conflict.
ss13 is cool because it tells stories through conflict and in depth mechanics. if there is no conflict then no meaningful story can really be told except for rare exceptions (usually where players will do some new unique gimmick and we all know how often that happens).
you will not be able to fix this issue because at its core ss13 is not designed to be played that way.
Pretty much this though I do disagree about the depth of mechanics as I'll hit upon that after. There is a problem with the foundation and there has to be a focused, directed effort in taking an actual plan and design to the gameplay, modes, map, and seek to address long glaring issues.
Just off the top of my head a major issue that likely makes things worse for the server is the server population/server caps. They're too fucking high. Right now, it's just the 'station' far as lived in areas go. It's a tiny hellhole with 50+ people and little separation because (another glaring, old shit thing) there also happens to be windows into almost everywhere because reasons.
Now, take that blob of people each round and look at what they can/may want to do. Not a lot. There is a lot of small interesting mechanics in tg, but depth? It's not deep at all. The rounds go too fast because of the exacerbated issues as things just break down for a variety of reasons. So there is no investment into any particular round and while this is similar to the 'lets reroll my antag status' it's not even the same. Similar effects that the round isn't gonna be good if nobody really feels invested in it, no matter what the job is.
Probably sound like a raging asshole but I do like the server to a degre. So I do worry about where the server ends up and lament the absolute trash state it feels like when I do hop on and see what the station is like.