/tg/Station 13

ADMIN EDIT: Hijacking this thread to become the announcement/sticky:

The decision was made by most of admin bus with me and a few of the other newer admins being the minority voice in opposition to the removal.
The main reasoning was that it was mostly shit stirring and brown nosing with less then 10% actual constructive feedback.
Per the agreement with sos, I gave adminbus first and final say on all FNR section matters and the rest of the forum is my domain, so since the heads and quite a few admins wanted it removed, it was decided.

You can still access the archive, its now a locked subforum of complaints
-MrStonedOne

---

Admin feedback has been removed, with no notification or reasoning?

Things are really moving in a less open direction here. Have you guys considered changing the name to "Adminstation13" yet? It's becoming more and more clear that the playerbase is just considered an annoyance for the admins, when will that be removed?

uhhh


its archived


but yeah, rip admin feedback

i loved admin feedback and steno back in the day when i was admin since people told me when i was shit and i improved

now we don't have that so admins don't know when what they did is bad except from admins... who, tbh, are usually friends with each other or in a clique (admins) within a clique (admin friends(s)) fighting off other admin cliques

Admin Feedback was a joke. All that was posted in it were jokes, and people angry about being banned who couldn't follow.
Example of nothing but joke/meaningless posts.
http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=785
http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1460

Two people in TheGel's thread provided feedback. Crushtoe and Spacemanspark. With Staubs developing into discussion of Poland.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 6&start=50
Really isn't much feedback in this thread outside of 3-4 posts.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1200
UtterNewbie, BlessedHeretic ,Raven,JDemms,Ikkarus, Fragnostic applied decent feedback.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 6&start=25
Various bitching, squalling, and looking at a situation at a glance and immediately judging something without knowing jackshit about what was going on the general!

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1485
Decent bit of feedback, mostly "wow your robust"

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic. ... 8&start=25
Fine feedback for the most part, joking and friendliness for the rest.

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=144
Decent bit of feedback, doesn't really tell Ikky what they do well, what they do bad etc, the problem with most threads listed.

Personally I didn't receive any feedback in my thread that made me want to change or made me proud of anything I did. Just bland ban appeal conversation from a bunch of uninvolveds on something I handled poorly.

All in all the best feedback I have received that I have reflected on and made changes about was from a private conversation with Paprka and a OOC conversation with WeeYakk on my past fuck ups that needed some serious attention.

The majority of "constructive criticism" in admin feedback was incredibly malicious hate towards the admin for banning them. It devolved into a bunch of people playing that kid at school that likes to act out and say "Fuck you, teacher." because he thinks it makes him look cool.

If you have any feedback with me, please message me here, on steam, ingame, through byond, or some other medium and I will do my best to take your feedback to heart and listen to you.

A fair warning, I am moving houses in a day or so, maybe even now so anything you say recently may take a moment for me to reply to. Thanks if you do take the time.

I'm glad it's gone because all that happened was blatant censorship of posts anyway and admins turning it into their containment area for people who didn't like them

Who made the decision and was it unanimous?
I still think a notifying post would have been nice, it seems fairly out of the blue.

Also IMO there was some useful constructive criticism and the right out shitposts were always removed. Personally I would have been harsher on the joke posts and removed them too, but I'd probably be called out on that.

The decision was made by most of admin bus with me and a few of the other newer admins being the minority voice in opposition to the removal.

Per the agreement with sos, I gave adminbus first and final say on all FNR section matters and the rest of the forum is my domain.

Well, it honestly gave a pretty good overall idea of how the community felt about any given admin. Yeah, any given post was essentially meaningless, but a huge collection of posts saying "Brotemis is worst admin" and "Skorvald is pretty good" start to paint a pretty good picture of how the community feels about that admin.

It was the same thing with Steno. Of course, people are going to complain regardless, but when you get a super shitstorm about one particular ban or another, you get a pretty good indication that the community wasn't happy with it. And there were a number of times that a shitstorm got bad enough that things became policy matters. Of course, that seems to be reversing now, as one of the best accomplishments of steno was Aran getting deadminned over his repeated abuses, and now he's back as admin, banning people over things he was involved with...

It seems the admins are just trying to make sure there is no good way for the community to make their opinions known, probably because they've been doing a lot of shit the community doesn't seem to like. Their justification seems to be "You don't know what's good for you, but we do"

You're acting like the admin complaints section got removed or something.

MrStonedOne wrote:The decision was made by most of admin bus with me and a few of the other newer admins being the minority voice in opposition to the removal.
Per the agreement with sos, I gave adminbus first and final say on all FNR section matters and the rest of the forum is my domain.

Ok makes sense. Meant my questions more out of curiosity than accusationally.


Damiac don't drag that Steno thing back through the dirt. We've seriously gone through that whole thing so many times its starting to become an in-joke.

Though I do think that by removing feedback and only having a complaint thread we risk only having negative feedback. As in there is very little way in which to show that someone is doing something commendable. And everyone every now and then needs a little boost to let them know they're doing something right, or fighting the good fight. Otherwise you end up burnt out or disillusioned when all you can receive is complaints.

Saegrimr wrote:You're acting like the admin complaints section got removed or something.

Those threads that get locked out of the blue all the time even when they're not over with and yield nothing since nobody is actually accountable to anyone else?

Admin complaints are useless and a bad place to engage with admins. Feedback was nice for that. Until posts started getting censored because m-muh hurt feelings

If the administration has final word on FNR, why is there even a FNR? Why not just remove the illusion that the administration is supposed to be accountable at all? Just put up 1 sticky post that says "The purpose of the players is to fulfill the fantasy of having absolute power for the administration" That would at least make the recent policies make sense.

Apparently in-game events are not enough of a payoff for banning stupid players for admins, they are getting fed up with doing it for free and need to ban harmless things now as well. I hope their hot pockets taste good.

If a ban is invalid or you think it's invalid, use admin complaints. Admin feedback wasn't for appealing bans anyway.

man

me and pap fought sometimes but despite the spiteful insight, they are 100% right

a lot of shit got censored (even though some of it was shitposting, quite a lot of "shitposting" has a hint of truth in it)

i don't think ADMINS should be the ones deciding what is and what isn't shitposting in their own forum section, as it gives a bad taste in the mouth as ANYTHING can be classed as shitposting

no im not making this out to be a conspiracy, just stating what is pretty obvious

I should make a admin rating page

Was there any legitimate reason of removing it? Did you ask yourselves "How are we better off without a dedicated admin feedback forum now"?

Did you think that perhaps that a few of the rude comments on feedback threads were somewhat justified?

We'll just use Singulo as a substitute then?

Alright, I'm listening. What did Admin Feedback add? And what does removing it lose us?

I personally never wrote feedback because I was too scared to, so my opinion is somewhat invalidated.

However, I can imagine many players enjoyed writing short comments, negative or positive, about how an admin conducts themselves. Sure, there was hardly any in-depth constructive criticism involved, but regardless I think it allowed player-admin relationships to be a little more transparent. I would compare it to writing it to your congressman.

Taking away the ability to either confront or congratulate an admin in the eyes of the public takes away a lot of perks that one on one discussions can't provide.

"the admins have unanimously voted that they dont want people to give feedback on them so they got rid of that possibility." - what i read
in a perfect system a good admin would actively look for feedback
clearly not the case here

In a perfect system the community wouldn't constantly shitpost and make personal attacks instead of leaving valuable feedback. Thank those among you who are guilty, because it doomed the board.

in a perfect system admins wouldnt be afraid of shitposts
dont blame shitposters when its literally your job to get rid of them
"oh no, personal attacks" dont give me that, everyone knows you dont care about being insulted, and admins signing up for the job should know that they'll be the center of attention for those sorts of things

Why should we leave a forum that consists almost entirely of rulebreaking and meaningless platitudes open?

why would the absurd number of forum mods and administrators allow a forum of rulebreaking and meaningless platitudes when theyre clearly capable of better policing? (as evidenced by fnr)

If you can see deleted posts like we can, every thread is a fucking bloodbath of deletions. One of them had just about an entire page of deleted posts.

i see dead posts

Just remove every users posting rights. Clearly we are shitposters who do not deserve to post on the same forum as our glorious infallible admins.

This change indirectly legitimizes singilo as it's now the only real place for free form admin discussion.

Swagile wrote: i don't think ADMINS should be the ones deciding what is and what isn't shitposting in their own forum section, as it gives a bad taste in the mouth as ANYTHING can be classed as shitposting

In game admins and forum admins are separate. Generally shitpost removal and other tidying is done by the forum admins. Also it was pretty much general policy that admins don't moderate there own threads or complaints at all.
But I guess there's always going to be "ma conspiracies"

Power creep is the reason why.

No one has been able to answer HBL's question really yet.

My feedback thread was mostly myself shitposting because I wanted to bump it so people would give me feedback, which only 2 people did really. The only time someone would get feedback was when people were upset with them and wanted to shitpost. People made some mean comments about me on singulo so I asked them to make their comments to me personally on IRC or make a post on me feedback thread if they have a serious concern...neither of these things happened.

Stickymayhem wrote:This change indirectly legitimizes singilo as it's now the only real place for free form admin discussion.

Based oranges does it again.

peoplearestrange wrote:

Swagile wrote: i don't think ADMINS should be the ones deciding what is and what isn't shitposting in their own forum section, as it gives a bad taste in the mouth as ANYTHING can be classed as shitposting

In game admins and forum admins are separate. Generally shitpost removal and other tidying is done by the forum admins. Also it was pretty much general policy that admins don't moderate there own threads or complaints at all.
But I guess there's always going to be "ma conspiracies"

Hornygranny isn't an in game admin?

So they stealth remove the admin feedback, then stealth remove the thread asking about the previous stealth removal. Nobody reads the damn FNR stickies man...

And uhh... yeah HG is like a post deleting machine, so was he removed from in game admin?

Also, regarding QC, I answered HBL's question before he asked it:

Damiac wrote: Well, it honestly gave a pretty good overall idea of how the community felt about any given admin. Yeah, any given post was essentially meaningless, but a huge collection of posts saying "Brotemis is worst admin" and "Skorvald is pretty good" start to paint a pretty good picture of how the community feels about that admin.

The shit admins have tons of complaints(or deleted posts), the good admins have mostly compliments. If we're all just randomly shitposting like the admins are suggesting, how did the worst admins get the biggest collections of complaints? Why did some admins get very few complaints?

Just because you have to filter the data a little doesn't mean there's no meaningful data. The fact is, you didn't like the data so you got rid of it.

Negative admin feedback doesn't translate into bad behavior. Stickymayhem had generally positive feedback, but is one of the only people to have gotten in trouble for misconduct in quite a while. Our job is not to be well liked.

Hornygranny wrote:Our job is not to be well liked.

Funny, it's always the authority figures who aren't well liked who say that.

But no, your job isn't to be liked, your job is to administrate the game. If you do it well, chances are you will be more well liked than those who do it poorly. Imperfect feedback is better than no feedback, unless of course you just don't like the idea of people discussing the mistakes you've made.

A good example of a good feedback thread was HBL. A pretty mixed bag, but overall fairly positive. As opposed to Brotemis, whose feedback thread was pretty much just complaints about how horrible he was. Any one given post was fairly worthless, but the entire collection taken together wasn't.

Of course, if someone's a bad admin behind the scenes it might not show up to the playerbase, but admins were able to post to admin feedback too.

damiac wrote:your job is to administrate the game. If you do it well, chances are you will be more well liked than those who do it poorly.

Is this that irony thing or sarcasm? I can't tell at this point.

No, it was just a straight up statement, meant to be taken at face value.

So was that ad-hominem, or just poor reading comprehension? It wasn't exactly a difficult statement to decipher.

Well, the statement assumes that players are inherently good, as opposed to inherently petty or self-centered.

its not as if admins dont already see themselves as inherently good
i mean, they dont even need feedback, theyre already perfect!

miggles wrote:its not as if admins dont already see themselves as inherently good
i mean, they dont even need feedback, theyre already perfect!

If you have negative feedback (ie. a complaint), you can use the admin complaint forum. If you have positive feedback, well according to you they already see themselves as good so that's not needed.

Oh hi Brotemis. Stop complaining about specific administration decisions, this isn't the thread for that.

You were from all accounts a pretty decent admin, with a HORRIBLE attitude. On the forums, all one really got to experience was the attitude, but I think your feedback thread pretty accurately showed both your administrative skill and how bad of a taste you left in everyone's mouth who had to deal with you (administratively, that is). Even someone good at what they do screws up once in a while, and when you did, you were just a dick to everyone involved.

Cheridan wrote:

miggles wrote:its not as if admins dont already see themselves as inherently good
i mean, they dont even need feedback, theyre already perfect!

If you have negative feedback (ie. a complaint), you can use the admin complaint forum. If you have positive feedback, well according to you they already see themselves as good so that's not needed.

These are not the same things Cheridan. The point of the feedback forum is so that headmins (too bad there's really none of these left) could take admin complaints threads seriously and actually do something about admins who have legitimate complaints and filter out the one-off grudges people want to hash out in feedback. The complaints forum being spammed up with useless shit rather that serious, important bad things that admins may or may not have done is way worse than a forum with threads where people can get shit off their chest in a public setting. In personal PMs, admins are more likely to be snarky, or completely ignore the minor feedback or issues people have with admins. In a public thread that's already been made (again, making a thread for something minor is unnecessary) it's a lot easier to chip in and add something about your personal experiences with an admin. This was my whole idea behind feedback, not providing a soapbox for people to shitpost but rather to filter out the stupid grudge issues that are less huge infractions and rather little things people can work on from the complaints forum because there was a BIG problem with that before the feedback forum was made.

Here's an example: 'he was kind of rude to me in a PM' does not warrant a complaint thread, rather just a post in their feedback thread, where either the admin can choose to respond (they are not forced to do this in any way) or just let it be if it's false. The forum moderators (most of them are ingame admins) have chosen to do neither of these things, instead moderate each other's admin feedback threads by culling posts like this by deigning them 'shitposting' judging on the tone of the posts. No, HG is right, its not the admins' jobs to be liked, but a lot of (good) admins work on their interactions with players and how they conduct themselves. The feedback forum helped those kinds of admins. The admins it didn't help were admins who never wanted to improve themselves or hash out problems players might have with them by either apologizing or explaining why they made a decision on a ban. Yes, people will forever be buttmad and leave negative feedback because they broke rules that were already clear, but maybe sometimes a player didn't know better or what have you. Yes, it's not the admins' job to explain everything to players who have gotten banned, but this kind of interaction with people (ESPECIALLY ones you've banned in the past or disagreed with) is incredibly important for admins, even if it isn't in their job description(I'm looking at you, Hornygranny).

I find it really funny that the feedback only got worse the more the moderators chose to censor feedback left and right. You brought the downfall in quality on yourselves and just ended up pissing off people who were already pissed off with admins.

once again violaceus hops into a thread without knowing what hes talking about
(and says something along the lines of "you people" at least once)

miggles wrote:once again violaceus hops into a thread without knowing what hes talking about
(and says something along the lines of "you people" at least once)

This holy shit

paprika wrote:

miggles wrote:once again violaceus hops into a thread without knowing what hes talking about
(and says something along the lines of "you people" at least once)

This holy shit

The day came when I was forced to agree with both Paprika and miggles at once. I read about this somewhere in Revelations.

This whole thread is hostile with a majority of the hostility coming from paprka and miggles.

paprika is my alter ego

NikNakFlak wrote:This whole thread is hostile with a majority of the hostility coming from paprka and miggles.

Might as well lock it then, right?

Or, alternatively and arguably the better solution is for people to chill out and argue their point without being hostile and insulting about it.

NikNakFlak wrote:Or, alternatively and arguably the better solution is for people to chill out and argue their point without being hostile and insulting about it.

Reasonable discussion is for singulo, not here.