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Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:20 pm
by MrStonedOne
Over the next few weeks I'm going to be unifying the forum administration with the game administration team.

Meaning in game admins will have limited mod powers in the on topic sections, game masters will have global mod powers, and headmins will be forum admins.

The most important part is i'll be making a set of unified community rules that apply equally to ooc, forums, discord, and irc, as right now we have a mess of rules and conflicting standards.

This also means admin complaints, ban appeals, and admin feedback will grow in purpose, something that players have asked for for a while.

In regards to the current bit of drama, I'll be encoding some standards relating to communication with banned users about why they are banned. (as a side note: This will also include a general rule for admins against announcing to other users that users are banned or why they are banned.)

If you are wondering what direction I'm going to go with all of this, I'll leave you with a quote.

hornygranny wrote:This was so long ago not many people will remember, but we left goonstation because we wanted a place to play where we would all be treated fairly and transparently, rather than according to the whims of an admin team who didn't feel the need to justify their actions.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:22 pm
by PKPenguin321
Muh snowflake global mod role

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:28 pm
by Bluespace
MSO putting the leathers on the administration.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:29 pm
by Bluespace
Goofball died for our sins.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:30 pm
by Dax Dupont
>This will also include a general rule for admins against announcing to other users that users are banned or why they are banned.

Will this include in ahelps? I often let the victim know of what action was taken, especially if they seem especially wronged.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:31 pm
by Wyzack
Is there still going to be an announcement made about the recent stupid drama bullshit surrounding the goofball ban? I think it is a long time coming for the amount of shit stirring it has caused

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:37 pm
by Pepper
Admin accountability when?

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:43 pm
by Timbrewolf
I can't say it's an outright bad idea but I want to point out major reasons we never did something like this in the past was to try to give the forums a bit more of a "neutral zone" territory between the administration and playerbase. It wasn't until late in the Erro forums era that in-game admins were even given forum mod powers, and even then it was only a very few of us who were extremely active on the forums (Ie like the whole cleaning up FNR thing) and dedicated to keeping the discourse neutral and fair.

I think the recent situations, my own situation that lead to my hut confiment as well, shows how important it is that maybe game admins and such DON'T have control over the discussion forums.

Having a unified code of conduct sounds great, but I think it would be best served if the forums had their own independent staff that was intended to remain impartial when it comes to SRS BSNS.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:44 pm
by Arianya
Dax Dupont wrote:>This will also include a general rule for admins against announcing to other users that users are banned or why they are banned.

Will this include in ahelps? I often let the victim know of what action was taken, especially if they seem especially wronged.


To add to this, sometimes someone did something particularly notorious (BoHbombing the shuttle as a non-antag, etc etc) and it tends to eat up OOC for a while with people asking if they got banned/if anything's being done. I wouldn't say we need to supply the information in those situations but I definitely think it's helpful to players who otherwise can end up feeling like the admins are letting people get away with stuff.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:53 pm
by Lazengann
I share Dax's question. It's quite irritating to a player if they get no closure when they adminhelp.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:54 pm
by Iatots
Giving both more power and responsabilities to every single admin after the recent headmin fiasco seems counterintuitive.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:55 pm
by MrStonedOne
Half the reason we had the fiasco was because of a lack of clarity over power and responsibilities

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:05 pm
by Timbrewolf
I think a better solution is to just get a better forum team rather than give the people who just made the mistakes even more control over the whole playground, no?

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:12 pm
by Timbrewolf
To put it another way:

Iterating that people don't have a right to know why other people have been banned
At the same time that you give everyone responsible for the bans power over the #1 vehicle for communication outside the game

You put these two things together and it starts to look like shit is heading in a real skeevy direction.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:26 pm
by MrStonedOne
Timbrewolf wrote:To put it another way:

Iterating that people don't have a right to know why other people have been banned
At the same time that you give everyone responsible for the bans power over the #1 vehicle for communication outside the game

You put these two things together and it starts to look like shit is heading in a real skeevy direction.

Are you really saying that admins announcing that people were banned doesn't look like preschool banter?

Its unprofessional and kinda shitty

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:28 pm
by FantasticFwoosh
How do admins new to the staff or are currently being trained by others factor in? A large influx of new staff over the course of this and last year leave the question whether they will manage to slip into the new system, either aren't needed or if aren't retrained again under new guidelines could re-establish the problem.

Eitherway, the culture change is appreciated.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:48 pm
by shabang50
What the fuck is all this it’s just a fucking game guys chill :honk:

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:44 pm
by bandit
As far as telling people someone got banned, it can help a lot in cases where someone is obviously griefing and then at round's end, when they're not antag, you get a flood of ahelps at round end and the beginning of the next round all going "HEY SO URIST MCDUMBFUCK TOOLBOXED ME TO DEATH AND 10 OTHER PEOPLE CAN YOU LOOK INTO THIS."

edit: basically what arianya said, but this happens all the time

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:34 am
by oranges
The not telling people you banned someone is halfbaked and I doubt it will get enforced with much enthusiasm by the admin team, it's quite common to let people know the griefer last round was banned so they know it was handled etc.

I mean we don't tell everyone the specifics but it's not uncommon.

Also the ban will be public when they appeal it anyway.

Merging the forum and admin teams is fine I guess, there was never a really active forum moderation team and our community clearly isn't big enough to support both.

Besides if people want to post without fear of the admins they know where they can go!

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:51 am
by oranges
although actually looking at the points timbre was making he makes good points, maybe we should still aim to have a neutral forum admin team

lord knows some of our admins like ausops are quick to abuse their forum powers on people they don't like

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:19 am
by starmute
Why wouldn't you communicate to a banned individual why they were banned? That's like a police officer throwing you in prison without telling you the reason or letting you appeal.

Am I just misunderstanding this but for example a blacklist ban like what happened to goof (with no prior warning or probation) would just pop up as "you were banned for x reason goodbye". Nobody would "be the wiser" but the admin team who banned him and people who "leak" information to the public would be punished?

In my mind if someone is banned for a reason you should tell them that reason and then allow them to appeal the issue on the forums. If this happened to begin with the whole recent incident would have never happened.

As far as making admins accountable for their actions on the forums, I'll believe it when I see it.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:12 am
by Dax Dupont
starmute wrote:Why wouldn't you communicate to a banned individual why they were banned? That's like a police officer throwing you in prison without telling you the reason or letting you appeal.

Reread the thread, he clearly states that admins shouldn't tell OTHERS if and/or why a person got banned .

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:03 pm
by Wyzack
The problem is that our bluenames are all literally whos that have bursts of activity and then vanish for years. Make me one I am still shackled to this place after all these years

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:18 pm
by TehSteveo
Wyzack wrote:The problem is that our bluenames are all literally whos that have bursts of activity and then vanish for years. Make me one I am still shackled to this place after all these years
Wtf Wyzack....I thought we were better than this...

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:31 pm
by PKPenguin321
Wyzack wrote:The problem is that our bluenames are all literally whos that have bursts of activity and then vanish for years. Make me one I am still shackled to this place after all these years

Most of them but not all, I'm one (I just never wear the blue name) for example

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:09 am
by Wyzack
*unsheathes post count and teleprots behind u*

Heh, nothing personnel kid



Also I forgot about multi color names and my best pal stevo

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:37 am
by MrStonedOne
CosmicScientist wrote:
Wyzack wrote:The problem is that our bluenames are all literally whos that have bursts of activity and then vanish for years. Make me one I am still shackled to this place after all these years

IF THIS LITERALLY WHO GETS ONE, I DEMAND ONE. pretty please your benevolence.

I HAVE +0.47 POSTS PER DAY UP ON WYZACK. and I have never ever abused power before.


Who are you?

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:14 am
by Wyzack
That is the secret cosmic, I abused my power on behalf of the people who matter and that is why my ascent is assured

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:00 am
by PKPenguin321
Cosmic is a pretty cool guy he posts cards and doesn't afraid of anything

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:03 am
by iksyp
CosmicScientist wrote:I feel Wyzack has just tipped his hand. He is pure evil and now no-one can stop him. Though what to do with this information, well, do we have a mary sue hero who can save the day?

MrStonedOne wrote:Who are you?

>conflicted as to take this ironically or unironically
Spoiler:
15 issues reported in detail, no memes, some of critical importance

28 PRs of varying quality ranging from JUST DON'T LOOK, I'M FOREVER EMBARRASSED AT MISTAKES, to sprites, to memes, to finishing PKP's timestop code, to perhaps overzealously pushing for a role's removal, to trying to hard to change communication balance, to the dehydrated carp nuke ops memes that wound up a valid tactic, to grammar, to revisiting dehydrated carp code to fix my own mistakes when I was capable

Image
>made this, realised a fault, the currently use version still has the fault of the dark line between the nuke op's legs
>never dived into the site's github to find out if I could edit the image there to not bother you

>active contributor to singulo even when no drama fuels it as to counterbalance the depression posts and lack of imageposting on an imageboard

Shitposters!

>reported various emoji/assorted special character issues with these forums

produced several newspapers to raise awareness of tgstation's elections in a goofy format that invited lack of srsness

boulder

random sawrge thing from years ago to show that I totally don't have deep ties in the sawrge conspiracy so don't worry, I'm on the right side, ;)
Image

I play the game for fun, hence doing this in a gang round instead of breaking it and then demanding its removal:
Image

I made a collage of almost everyone I can name or describe the character of back when I think the hut was the shack, ignore the continued sawrge appearances as there is no conspiracy here, nudge nudge:
Image

The founding inspiration for Kor giving the Chaplain DEUS VULT armour
Image

Proud tesla wrangler from a simpler time:
1
2
3

I have a referee who has known me most of the time I've played here and I think this best sums up their opinion of me:
Image
another quote from said referee is in my signature

further referees are anyone from any of the quotes in my spoilers sig, none of them, including the slime above, authorised me to use them as referees so don't tell them!

I edited someone else's edit of you as my most recent glorification of your visage
Image

I have existed since before Ned's logging of users and recall a time of a different forum.

I still have an antag token I don't want to spend because I don't want to forget Icepacks/Bryce Pax who gave me it.

I have no other notes of bad behaviour. Probably. I did IC in OOC once.

who are you?

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:33 am
by ThanatosRa
I ask for nothing and deserve nothing.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:49 am
by Ricotez
I am personally of the opinion that there should be a separation of powers. A /tg/station trias politica, with the server, the forums and the codebase. If you want to make changes it should be to the checks and balances between them, rather than merging two branches of power into one.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:54 am
by Malkevin
MrStonedOne"[quote="hornygranny wrote:This was so long ago not many people will remember, but we left goonstation because we wanted a place to play where we would all be treated fairly and transparently, rather than according to the whims of an admin team who didn't feel the need to justify their actions.
[/quote]
Interesting sentiment, but perhaps Horny 'Separation of Codebase and Serverbase is Absolute' Granny isn't the best spokesperson for it - one may even say they're worst person for it.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:47 am
by oranges
you're late

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:17 pm
by Munchlax
this is racist tbh

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:17 pm
by Munchlax
PostThis post was deleted by Munchlax on Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:17 pm.
Reason: lol

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:18 am
by callanrockslol
We should adopt a seniority system for forum mods. Clearly.

Firecage for headmod.

Ricotez wrote:I am personally of the opinion that there should be a separation of powers. A /tg/station trias politica, with the server, the forums and the codebase. If you want to make changes it should be to the checks and balances between them, rather than merging two branches of power into one.


We had that. It was shit and fell apart when the few people that cared left.

Why pretend that there's any separation between forum, code and server? In the time I've been playing we've been through three (four?) hosts, three forums, two code bases, literally endless drama and somehow the community has managed to stay together. There's people that don't even play the fucking spaceman game anymore but they're still here.

[Deleted]

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:04 am
by ASAPROCKY
PostThis post was deleted by CitrusGender on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:11 am.
Reason: spam

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:23 am
by iamgoofball
CosmicScientist wrote:Did this happen?

no lol

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:13 pm
by Zarniwoop
MrStonedOne wrote:Its unprofessional and kinda shitty


This actually matters to you? Coulda fooled me with all the shitposting some of the staff around here does in serious topics. Seems like unprofessional and shitty is par for the course.

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:30 pm
by somerandomguy
Zarniwoop wrote:
MrStonedOne wrote:Its unprofessional and kinda shitty


This actually matters to you? Coulda fooled me with all the shitposting some of the staff around here does in serious topics. Seems like unprofessional and shitty is par for the course.

t. shitpost

Re: Some changes.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:26 pm
by terranaut
MrStonedOne wrote:
Timbrewolf wrote:To put it another way:

Iterating that people don't have a right to know why other people have been banned
At the same time that you give everyone responsible for the bans power over the #1 vehicle for communication outside the game

You put these two things together and it starts to look like shit is heading in a real skeevy direction.

Are you really saying that admins announcing that people were banned doesn't look like preschool banter?

Its unprofessional and kinda shitty


It should not be announced by an admin speaking in OOC, or any other way on the game server, that so-and-so got banned for this-and-that but I would be in favor of a banlog similiar to the one 4chan employs (for reference), except that the ckey of the banned account would be shown.
This eliminates any possible interpretation done by players in how the admin words it and there will be no ongoing lengthy discussion about it in OOC right after the ban. It's neutral and transparent for all sides, and if you don't wanna be put on the spot and have everybody know you got banned, then don't get banned.

It wouldn't need to be fancy, a sample could look like this:
CKEY - Reason - Duration - Admin
Terranaut - Maxcapped the escape shuttle as it was arriving on CentComm but before the round had ended due to lag, killing three others. Please be aware that rules are in effect until the round end message is displayed. - 1440 - Penterwast
Optionally the Round ID could be displayed aswell. Personally I can't think of a good use for the Round ID right now but I haven't been an admin for years so that doesn't mean anything.

Doing it this way also eliminates any and all hear-say and unrealiblity of second-hand information and enables a better base to discuss policy and handling with in the future. A banning admin is encouraged to give a clear and concise reason (more so than anyway). Furthermore it gives unexperienced admins an idea of how long a ban could be for a given action without them having to worry about being too lenient or too harsh when there's nobody around to ask.