Telescience & Coordinate Maps - Now for NTSL!

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Braincake
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:48 pm
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Telescience & Coordinate Maps - Now for NTSL!

Postby Braincake » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:24 pm #41502

Updated for NTSL!

Thanks to the fancy new trigonometry functions in NTSL, I could finally port the calculator to NTSL, something I've been dying to do for a while. This might be of rather limited usability, since Telescience might be removed and it's a lot easier to just use the standalone calculator, but at least it's not an external program anymore!

It's pretty much a direct port of the original tool, and it's even possible to transfer the offsets from one to the other. However, thanks to the execution limit of NTSL, it may have to spread computation across several runs of the script.

The NTSL Telescience Calculator™ has the exact same features as the original tool, with the bonus of a "help" command, since there is no fancy GUI. Now you can telescience everything without any external tools!

Runs on frequency 144.9 by default.

The script (also on pastebin):

Code: Select all
// NTSL Telescience Calculator!
//
// Does all the Telescience work for you,
// without any external program accusations.
// Bruteforces through everything, so is
// guaranteed to be 100% accurate.
//
// Change $opfreq to whatever frequency you
// want to use it on.
//
// Commands:
//
// "reset"
//
// Resets the calibration data for
// this run. This is called the first time
// the program is run.
//
// "help"
//
// Displays (more concise) usage information
// on these commands.
//
// "calibrate <bearing> <elevation> <power>
// <result_x> <result_y> <source_x> <source_y"
//
// Calibrates on the given data. Will report
// on the currently achievable accuracy when
// finished. Result X and Y are where the GPS
// device ended up, and Source X and Y are the
// coordinates of the Telepad.
//
// Because NTSL only accepts a certain amount
// of function calls per run, calibrating will
// require several runs at the start. Just trigger
// it by saying anything to have it continue.
//
// "target <dest_x> <dest_y> <power> <source_x>
// <source_y>"
//
// Computes the Telescience settings needed
// to reach (dest_x, dest_y) with the given
// power, and the given telepad location.
// Will report if unreachable.
//
// "apply <power_offset> <bearing_offset>"
//
// Takes the given offsets as truth and applies
// them. Interoperability!
//
// "get"
//
// Gets the determined offsets. Only works if
// it's calibrated properly!
//
// Be sure to use appropiate precision! This
// means limiting the Elevation to one digit
// after the period, and Bearing to two digits
// after the period.
//
// Made by Braincake, pretty much a direct
// port of the existing C# calculator.

$opfreq = 1449;

// Don't change this unless they change the NTSL
// function call restrictions
$max_calcs = 30;

// Degrees to radians
def toRadian($angle) {
   return $angle * (PI/180);
}

// Radians to degrees
def toDegree($angle) {
   return $angle * (180/PI);
}

// Tangent function, in radians
def tan($angle) {
   return sin($angle) / cos($angle);
}

// Inverse tangent function, in radians
def atan($angle) {
   return toRadian(asin($angle / sqrt($angle^2 + 1)));
}

// Atan2
def atan2($y, $x) {
   if ($x > 0) {
      return atan($y / $x);
   }
   if ($y >= 0 && $x < 0) {
      return atan($y / $x) + PI;
   }
   if ($y < 0 && $x < 0) {
      return atan($y / $x) - PI;
   }
   if ($y > 0 && $x == 0) {
      return PI/2;
   }
   if ($y < 0 && $x == 0) {
      return 0-PI/2;
   }
}

// Modulus function, $a % $b
def mod($a, $b) {
   return $a - $b * floor($a / $b);
}

// BYOND degree to scientific degree
def toScientific($angle) {
   return mod(360 - $angle + 90, 360);
}

// Scientific degree to BYOND degree
def fromScientific($angle) {
   return mod(360 - $angle + 90, 360);
}

// Sends a message
def send($message) {
   broadcast($message, $opfreq, "Telescience", "Calculator");
}

// Clear and create the initial offsets
def reset() {
   // Boundaries
   $pow_min = -4;
   $pow_max = 0;
   $ha_min = -10;
   $ha_max = 10;
   
   // Keep track
   $pow_offsets = vector();
   $ha_offsets = vector();
   $pow = $pow_min;

   // Fill them
   while ($pow <= $pow_max) {
      $ha = $ha_min;
      while ($ha <= $ha_max) {
         push_back($pow_offsets, $pow);
         push_back($ha_offsets, $ha);
         $ha += 1;
      }
      $pow += 1;
   }

   // Store them, overwrite existing
   mem("pow_offsets", $pow_offsets);
   mem("ha_offsets", $ha_offsets);
   mem("total_offsets", 105);

   // Done, report
   send("Offsets initialized!");
}

// Apply specified calibration settings
def calibrate($bearing, $elevation, $power, $result_x, $result_y, $source_x, $source_y) {
   // Retrieve remaining offsets
   $old_pow_offsets = mem("pow_offsets");
   $old_ha_offsets = mem("ha_offsets");
   $old_total_offsets = mem("total_offsets");
   
   // Keep track of the new stuff
   $new_pow_offsets = vector();
   $new_ha_offsets = vector();
   $new_total_offsets = 0;
   $index = 1;
   $count = 1;
   
   // Do we need to continue a computation?
   if (mem("continue")) {
      $new_pow_offsets = mem("temp_pow_offsets");
      $new_ha_offsets = mem("temp_ha_offsets");
      $new_total_offsets = mem("temp_total_offsets");
      $index = mem("temp_index");
   }

   // Bruteforce through them
   while ($index <= $old_total_offsets) {
      // Are we at the quota yet?
      if ($count > $max_calcs) {
         // Store the temporary information, then break
         mem("temp_pow_offsets", $new_pow_offsets);
         mem("temp_ha_offsets", $new_ha_offsets);
         mem("temp_total_offsets", $new_total_offsets);
         mem("temp_index", $index);
         mem("continue", 1);
         break;
      }
      
      // Get some information
      $current_pow_offset = at($old_pow_offsets, $index);
      $current_ha_offset = at($old_ha_offsets, $index);

      // Assume that this offset is true, then run the numbers
      
      // Get the actual bearing
      $actual_bearing = mod($bearing + $current_ha_offset, 360);
      
      // Convert it to scientific radians
      $actual_ha = toRadian(toScientific($actual_bearing));

      // Convert the elevation to scientific radians
      $actual_va = toRadian($elevation);

      // Get the actual velocity
      $actual_vel = $power + $current_pow_offset;

      // Compute the range, G = 10
      $range = $actual_vel^2 * sin(toDegree(2 * $actual_va)) / 10;

      // Compute delta X and Y
      $delta_x = $range * cos(toDegree($actual_ha));
      $delta_y = $range * sin(toDegree($actual_ha));

      // Compute destination X and Y
      $dest_x = round($source_x + $delta_x);
      $dest_y = round($source_y + $delta_y);
      
      // Check if this matches the provided coordinates
      if ($dest_x == $result_x && $dest_y == $result_y) {
         // We got a match! Add it
         push_back($new_pow_offsets, $current_pow_offset);
         push_back($new_ha_offsets, $current_ha_offset);
         $new_total_offsets += 1;
      }

      // Next iteration
      $index += 1;
      $count += 1;
   }

   // If we're really done, store everything and report
   if ($index > $old_total_offsets) {
      mem("pow_offsets", $new_pow_offsets);
      mem("ha_offsets", $new_ha_offsets);
      mem("total_offsets", $new_total_offsets);
      mem("continue", 0);

      // Report
      $report = tostring($new_total_offsets) + " offsets left! ";
      if ($new_total_offsets == 0) {
         $report += "Impossible, please reset!";
         mem("reset", 0);
      }
      if ($new_total_offsets == 1) {
         $report += "Perfectly accurate!";
      }
      if ($new_total_offsets > 1) {
         $report += "Not quite accurate yet!";
      }
      send($report);
   }
}

// Computes the bearing and elevation required for the given destination
def target($dest_x, $dest_y, $power, $source_x, $source_y) {
   // Retrieve the best offsets
   $pow_offsets = mem("pow_offsets");
   $ha_offsets = mem("ha_offsets");
   $pow_offset = at($pow_offsets, 1);
   $ha_offset = at($ha_offsets, 1);

   // Compute delta X and Y
   $delta_x = $dest_x - $source_x;
   $delta_y = $dest_y - $source_y;
   
   // Compute the distance we need
   $dist = sqrt($delta_x^2 + $delta_y^2);
   
   // Get the actual power
   $actual_pow = $power + $pow_offset;
   
   // Get the maximum distance achievable
   $max_range = $actual_pow^2 * sin(2 * 45) / 10;
   
   // Check
   if ($dist > $max_range) {
      send("That target is out of range!");
   } else {
      // Compute the bearing we need
      $atan2_result = atan2($delta_y, $delta_x);
      $bearing = mod(toDegree($atan2_result), 360);
      
      // Convert it
      $bearing = fromScientific($bearing);
      
      // Modify it with the offset
      $bearing -= $ha_offset;
      
      // Round it to two decimals
      $bearing = round($bearing * 100) / 100;
      
      // Compute the vertical angle we need
      $elevation = 0.5 * asin(10 * $dist / $actual_pow^2);
      
      // Round it as well
      $elevation = round($elevation * 10) / 10;
      
      // All done! Report it
      $report = "Bearing = " + tostring($bearing) + " , Elevation = " + tostring($elevation);
      send($report);
   }
}

// Applies a given power and bearing offset
def apply($pow_offset, $ha_offset) {
   $pow_offsets = vector($pow_offset);
   $ha_offsets = vector($ha_offset);
   $total_offsets = 1;
   mem("reset", 1);
   mem("pow_offsets", $pow_offsets);
   mem("ha_offsets", $ha_offsets);
   mem("total_offsets", $total_offsets);
   send("Applied given offsets! Assuming they were accurate, you can now target!");
}

// Gets the offsets and displays them
def get() {
   $total_offsets = mem("total_offsets");
   if ($total_offsets == 1) {
      $pow_offsets = mem("pow_offsets");
      $ha_offsets = mem("ha_offsets");
      $pow_offset = at($pow_offsets, 1);
      $ha_offset = at($ha_offsets, 1);
      $report = "Power offset: " + tostring($pow_offset) + " , Bearing offset: " + tostring($ha_offset);
      send($report);
   } else {
      send("We're not accurate enough to have proper offsets!");
   }
}

// Turn a list of <command, num1, num2, ...> into a number vector
def tonums($command_vec) {
   $index = 2;
   $total = length($command_vec);
   $result = vector();
   while ($index <= $total) {
      $textv = at($command_vec, $index);
      $numv = tonum($textv);
      push_back($result, $numv);
      $index += 1;
   }
   return $result;
}

// Initialisation
if (!mem("init")) {
   mem("continue", 0);
   mem("reset", 0);
   mem("init", 1);
}

// Command processing
if ($freq == $opfreq) {
   // If we're still computing, make a nice progress report, then continue
   if (mem("continue")) {
      $report = "Still computing, currently at ";
      $total = mem("total_offsets");
      $current = mem("temp_index");
      $percent = round($current / $total * 100);
      $report += tostring($percent) + "%!";
      send($report);
      $params = mem("calibrate_params");
      $bearing = at($params, 1);
      $elevation = at($params, 2);
      $power = at($params, 3);
      $result_x = at($params, 4);
      $result_y = at($params, 5);
      $source_x = at($params, 6);
      $source_y = at($params, 7);
      calibrate($bearing, $elevation, $power, $result_x, $result_y, $source_x, $source_y);
   } else {
      // Check for commands
      $commanded = 0;
      $words = explode($content, " ");
      $first = at($words, 1);
      $first = lower($first);
      if ($first == "reset") {
         reset();
         mem("reset", 1);
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      if ($first == "help") {
         send("NTSL Telescience Calculator! To view this line, use 'help'. To reset the calibration, use 'reset'. To calibrate, use 'calibrate bearing elevation power result_x result_y source_x source_y'. To compute, use 'target dest_x dest_y power source_x source_y'. To transfer, use 'apply power_offset bearing_offset'. Have fun!");
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      if ($first == "calibrate") {
         if (mem("reset")) {
            send("Calibrating!");
            $params = tonums($words);
            mem("calibrate_params", $params);
            $bearing = at($params, 1);
            $elevation = at($params, 2);
            $power = at($params, 3);
            $result_x = at($params, 4);
            $result_y = at($params, 5);
            $source_x = at($params, 6);
            $source_y = at($params, 7);
            calibrate($bearing, $elevation, $power, $result_x, $result_y, $source_x, $source_y);
         } else {
            send("You should reset before calibrating!");
         }
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      if ($first == "target") {
         if (mem("reset")) {
            $params = tonums($words);
            $dest_x = at($params, 1);
            $dest_y = at($params, 2);
            $power = at($params, 3);
            $source_x = at($params, 4);
            $source_y = at($params, 5);
            target($dest_x, $dest_y, $power, $source_x, $source_y);
         } else {
            send("You should calibrate properly first!");
         }
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      if ($first == "apply") {
         $params = tonums($words);
         $pow_offset = at($params, 1);
         $ha_offset = at($params, 2);
         apply($dest_x, $dest_y, $power, $source_x, $source_y);
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      if ($first == "get") {
         if (mem("reset")) {
            get();
         } else {
            send("You should initialize first!");
         }
         $commanded = 1;
      }
      
      // Display generic help if the command is unknown
      if (!$commanded) {
         send("Unknown command! Use 'help' for a list of commands and their usage!");
      }
   }   
}





Links to a few of these were occasionally mentioned in OOC once every few months or so, but since that is a terrible method of distribution, this thread might be better.

Remember: This may or may not be illegal, so try to use it carefully™ until something gets sorted out. But since this has lasted for a good month or two, don't expect much, even if Telescience is not removed alltogether.

I've made a Telescience calculator and various coordinate maps to go with it. The maps now contain pretty much everything, and will ofcourse also work alongside any other calculator.

Calculator -> Telescience v5.zip
Coordinate Maps -> Coordinate Maps v2.zip

Calculator
Image

Sourcecode (without the form definition) can be found here: pastebin

It requires .NET 4.0 or higher to run.

This program was originally conceived during the brief timespan where Telescience had 3 random variables instead of 2. Nevertheless, it now has a few neat features:

  • It brute-forces over every possible combination of the random variables in Telescience. As a result, calibration only requires exactly as many test cases as needed to narrow the options down to a single set of values.
  • It's usually possible to get 100% accuracy with a single test case at 25 power, and even more likely at higher powers, though lower power values can require as many as 3.
  • Once the definitive set of values is found, these are displayed, and may be given to someone else to be entered directly, without further calibration required.
  • It always displays how close you are to full accuracy. This will most likely be either the maximum or 2 during calibration, though.
  • Variable telepad location, power, etc. Fields only display and accept values up to an accuracy supported by Telescience itself.

Coordinate Maps
Image

Migraine warranty for the tiny font and color not included.

These were all generated from sewn-together screenshots of the locations, or existing maps. They are accurate as of today (6 November 2014), though now that maintenance items are randomized, it will vary between rounds. Each dock has its respective shuttle.

The archive at the top of the thread will be convenient to download, but here are the individual maps for the sake of completion:

z-level 1 (aka the station itself): boxstation - metastation

z-level 3 (aka the old telecommunications sat): tcommsat - abandoned teleporter - white shuttle

z-level 4 (aka the derelict): derelict - derelict teleporter - clown shuttle - DJ station

z-level 5 (aka mining): main outpost - west outpost - north outpost - labor camp - alien-weed-covered part
Last edited by Braincake on Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 6 times in total.



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Stickymayhem
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:45 pm #41515

I am horrified that people would use additional programs to improve their ability to metagame the locations of items and then powergame with the strength of those items. I am entirely disgusted and frankly I believe this information should be retracted and hidden from the general public.

Spoiler:
Oh god no the source of all my powers
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Spoiler:
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kevinthezhang
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby kevinthezhang » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:50 pm #41523

Good shit, at least everyone's on the same page now

PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

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Kot
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Kot » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:39 pm #41540

There is only Metastation map. We should all have the same ability to powergaem.
0/10
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cedarbridge
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:35 pm #41550

Stickymayhem wrote:I am horrified that people would use additional programs to improve their ability to metagame the locations of items and then powergame with the strength of those items. I am entirely disgusted and frankly I believe this information should be retracted and hidden from the general public.

Spoiler:
Oh god no the source of all my powers

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Braincake
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Braincake » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:42 pm #41552

Kot wrote:There is only Metastation map. We should all have the same ability to powergaem.
0/10

A dreadful mistake! I shall update the OP with the new Metastation Coordinate Map™ at once.

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Saegrimr
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Saegrimr » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:47 pm #41594

Violaceus wrote:This calculator is cancerous and this thread should be deleted asap.


Whats worse? That people are using a calculator to do telescience, or the fact that you NEED something like this to do the ridiculous math required for telescience?

Its hard to see a middleground, /vg/'s telesci is as easy as inputting the coords directly with a -10~+10 drift, and you can nab people mid-drag in the hallways with some practice.
This? No fucking way anybody in-game is going to figure it out, and even someone who really wants to figure this out will hit up the wiki and STILL not have any viable way to do the job.

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PostThis post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
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Cuboos
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Cuboos » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:40 pm #41610

i've done high school trig and college trig... i still can't figure out how to telescience... it is necessary, bitching is futile, cease the bitching.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby leibniz » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:55 pm #41618

Cuboos wrote:i've done high school trig and college trig... i still can't figure out how to telescience... it is necessary, bitching is futile, cease the bitching.


just use them spreadsheets
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lumipharon
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby lumipharon » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:22 am #41622

Having a map with all the co-ords of items is powergaming and unfun as fuck. Bit iffy on the actual calculator itself.

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paprika
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby paprika » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:33 am #41625

There's no problem with this thread's existence or the spread of information. We are not goonstation and I don't think people get banned for spreading information unless it's exploits.

If telescience cannot be done without this calculator, telescience is flawed. If telescience can be cheesed using this calculator, telescience is flawed. Telescience should be about resource usage, AKA bluespace crystals, rather than some advanced math that doesn't take skill when you can put some numbers into a calculator. Telesci, like robotics, should depend on RnD's upgrading to make it more efficient as well as production of bluespace crystals rather than some bogus math that can be cheesed just like a highschool math test. I don't know how telesci really works atm but I'm fairly certain you can upgrade the pad using better parts from RnD, however I'm not sure what it does.

I don't think telesci kleptomania is bad because if people grief with it by stealing from the armory they usually get swift jobbans. Bombing the AI who hasn't shunted takes no real skill when the AI doesn't have borgs and you just use a map like this, it's just a matter of time efficiency with making bombs and setting coords towards the AI since the AI can be hacked out of the APCs and shit. Same with blobs.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.

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Aranclanos
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Aranclanos » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:34 am #41639

QUICK GUYS, IDEAS TO REVAMP TELESCIENCE, TO DRIVE IT AWAY FROM STUPID CALCULATORS WITH ANOTHER GAMEPLAY BECAUSE THIS SUCKS BALLS
I accept donations, click here

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MMMiracles
 
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby MMMiracles » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:50 am #41643

Telescience is so rarely used now a-days, even with how stupidly easy it is. Maybe this will get some new use out of it, even if its for a short while.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Cheridan » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 am #41681

Aranclanos wrote:QUICK GUYS, IDEAS TO REVAMP TELESCIENCE, TO DRIVE IT AWAY FROM STUPID CALCULATORS WITH ANOTHER GAMEPLAY BECAUSE THIS SUCKS BALLS


I dunno. What gameplay element was it supposed to serve? It was originally intended to be packaged with a bunch of space content areas, but the way iamgoofball had it set up... You could still fly there with a jetpack and find these areas in space. You'd have these perfectly rectangular walled-off areas in space that you could only warp into. It was immersion-shattering.

Oh, telesci also had 'random failure effects' such as turning you into a cultist or a revhead.

So telescience got in without them and the only use was for stealing things, messing with the AI, and maybe rescuing people if their suit sensors are on and you're feeling generous.

I'd like to get some new space content going, but even if the content is there... how are you going to get to where this new content is? Well, you'll pull out your calculator.

I guess what I'm saying is, the calculator aspect kinda sucks but so does the whole premise.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby lumipharon » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:00 am #41684

Yeah, I can agree that telesci is flawed. Oh well.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby paprika » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:14 am #41687

Why not put a crew monitoring console in telesci or even just a board to build a console in telesci

Holy crap guys I think I'm a genius right now can you believe this

Imagine the hijinks!! Imagine the body recovery!
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Stickymayhem » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:42 am #41689

When you get an autocloner set up next to telescience you can become God, Bringer of life and Smiter of blob/alien/malfs

Honestly Telescience is a lot of fun I just got sick of it because bitches call the shuttle 5 minute into the round so no R&D and I got screamed at for daring to prolong rounds beyond 40 minutes.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:57 am #41691

Our Telescience is so bloody hard to figure out that its completely unreasonable to expect players to do the math in game.

The reason Telesci was made this complicated was to deter people from using it in "shit" ways, however because of how difficult it is to figure out Telesci it actually caused more people to create programs to filter away the bullshit. I remember people kept making Telesci harder and harder to figure out in a effort to combat the spreadsheets being made, however that stopped when it became evident you that the end goal would be requiring you to have a pHD in astrophysics and yet a spreadsheet would still exist.

-----

I think a better way to balance out Telesci is to go with the tried and true method of telesci calculation.

For example, say I want to teleport a item to 10,10,1. However when I input that cordinate it instead goes to 15,22,1. So I know that I have to account for this by adding a 5 and 12 to my cord calculations.

In addition, tieing the range power of the teleporter to the amount of bluespace crystals creates a scaling system encouraging people to use RnD and preventing people from looting the Armoury at round start. In fact making the range restriction more sevear would better encourage RnD to take place.

We should also add a Crew Monitoring Console to the room, no reason not to. Also if abuse becomes a issue simply creating a Bluespace-Nullifier in one or two rooms (which block teleporting) would solve that issue.

Now all of this, plus a way to tie it in with space content (7th z-level?) would go a long way in making telesci more enjoyable.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Remie Richards » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:09 am #41693

Steelpoint wrote:be requiring you to have a pHD in astrophysics


It NEVER got this complicated, the most complicated it got were High school/6th form level maths/physics projectile trajectory calculations.
Sadly we can't really tie ANYTHING to maths or physics since:
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2. Both maths and physics are calculations with numbers, which are not surprisingly easy for computers to do!

While I'd like it to be maths/physics related since p.much nothing in SS13 requires higher function than a chimp it'd probably have to be an equation that changes pretty drastically between rounds, so that it has to be completely figured out again.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby miggles » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:10 am #41694

the range does not need to be more severe. bluespace crystals are hard enough to get as it is and the default range cant even reach past the bar from RnD
though this does mean that you cant steal the captain's ID at roundstart so thats pretty good

also remie youre really good at maths anyway so ofc youd say that
most people cant be bothered though
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:27 am #41700

I play 2d Space Men to have fun, not do mathematical calculations like I'm back in high school. Double so if I can just use a spreadsheet.

Hence why I suggested we simply dumb down the calculations to the proposed system I made above, and place more restrictions on more easy to understand concepts such as limiting range more from bluespace crystals and similar.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:50 am #41711

MMMiracles wrote:Telescience is so rarely used now a-days, even with how stupidly easy it is. Maybe this will get some new use out of it, even if its for a short while.

Apparenly you've never seen Kadence Woodsworth going telescientist round after round and god help you if she rolls antag.

As it is now, even if you want to find out the offsets yourself without programs you still need a spreadsheet to calculate the new bearings unless you want to use a calculator for every single coordinate, which is kind of stupid.

The real problem is that you only need tgstation.dmm opened in another window and voilà, you have a detailed map and all the coordinates for every z-level, add in the program and you're literally god. I don't think the program is an issue, but knowing all the coords for everything should be a matter of policy discussion.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:52 am #41712

Once tried doing the equation. Wasn't proficient enough to not just be standing still most of the round switching between dream maker and other applications. Then I had made an error at some point after spending the round and it was worthless. So I just looked up a telescience program on google.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Aranclanos » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:15 am #41720

telescience is so bad oh god
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Braincake » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:05 pm #41757

Received a PM from HG that this is now a violation of rule 5, so try not to use it, I suppose.

Thread won't last.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:09 pm #41758

Either way its good the issue of how bad telescience is is being brought up.

Most people I talk to use a spreadsheet program to do their calculations, and word will always spread of it.

Making the actual calculation's far easier to do while placing a emphasis on forcing you to upgrade the machine to be viable is a far better way to balance out telesci than it is to make it unneededly complicated which forces many people to use the spreadsheet to begin with.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Cheridan » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:23 pm #41762

Braincake wrote:Received a PM from HG that this is now a violation of rule 5, so try not to use it, I suppose.

Thread won't last.

Censorship's pointless, the cat is already out of the bag. I'd rather it be a level playing field instead of saying it's against the rules, which won't stop anyone without a rigid moral compass as we can't enforce what people are running on their computers.

There isn't even anything wrong with this program, it's just a grid and a better calculator.
The issue is that a this kind of thing is a requirement for telesci.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Braincake » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:00 pm #41765

Cheridan wrote:The issue is that a this kind of thing is a requirement for telesci.

I really hate to be that one guy that goes "I told you so", but this is pretty much exactly what I and several others said in the original Telescience feedback thread when it was first released.

Nevertheless, I appreciate that this seems to have at least revived the discussion somewhat, though a new feedback thread might be a better place.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:09 pm #41768

Braincake wrote:Thread won't last.


I've already recovered it from trashbin. It was removed with the server rule about metagaming as the reason, how ever i can't find anything in the forum rules this thread breaks so I recovered it.

While I wouldn't be opposed to removing threads that include cheating programs like if someone made a program that exploited some href/topic security hole to do FUN!, or cid spoofing/changing programs:

Rather or not this breaks the rules isn't even decided! As it currently stands, two admins at the same CURRENT rank as hg(they aren't headmin yet) have admitted to using something similar and almost anybody who tele-sciences uses this or a spread sheet. And I sure as hell do not plan to hand out bans for this.

So: thread stays, for better or worst.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Braincake » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:26 pm #41770

MrStonedOne wrote:Rather or not this breaks the rules isn't even decided! As it currently stands, two admins at the same CURRENT rank as hg(they aren't headmin yet) have admitted to using something similar and almost anybody who tele-sciences uses this or a spread sheet. And I sure as hell do not plan to hand out bans for this.

I know TankNut and Sticky used this particular program a whole bunch, though Tank is no longer an admin, last I heard.

I'd prefer to stay well away from rule discussions regarding this. Feel free to re-trashbin it if a consensus is reached.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Erbbu » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:28 pm #41772

Honestly there's something wrong with telescience when you need stuff like this to be efficient at it. Anyway since this is the telescience we have this calculator is great. Good work!

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby MrStonedOne » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:11 pm #41778

I have started a admin only topic so we can discuss this and come to a consensus. Its player viewable.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:02 pm #41784

Telescience is utterly useless without a program/spreadsheet and a map with coords. This is what makes it so different from other stuff that benefits from metagaming knowledge. This is also why every round telescience is either completely deserted or filled to the brim with computers, cloners and stolen goodies. It is also incredibly OP, to the point of being the closest thing to adminpowers that we have in game. The fact that you have to upgrade it to increase range is a minor inconvenience: you just need 10 seconds from roundstart to make an advanced capacitor, this brings you to 30 power which is enough to get to the commsat, where you can deconstruct the teleporter for crystals which brings you to 40. With 40 power you can get pretty much anywhere (boards, handtele etc.), and you can achieve it in less than 10 minutes. I've seen this happen so often that I assume it to be a routine setup for telescientists. There's no trial and error involved, there's no inter-department cooperation, no waiting time, pretty much every blunder that is usually used to limit an overpowered feature is completely absent. There's just an overcomplicated way to calculate offsets that is so complex that it has no practical application unless you use programs and maps.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Miauw » Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:50 pm #41793

Violaceus wrote:I don't know how to telescience but.my opinion is that this and chemistry should be "secrets" that people share ingame... Or try by themselves.

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Also yeah I guess Telesci is OP, but this is one of those cases where any changes you make to it will likely make it even more horrendously OP or utterly useless. We need to think out a fix, but it should be considered very well.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:06 pm #41799

My suggestion is to remove it from roundstart and make it (high) research only. At least this way it would be akin to the other OP stuff from R&D that you see only late into the round. Seriously, having telescience from the start is like having a phazon spawn in robotics.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby paprika » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:55 pm #41810

Stop this nonsense, if telesci can be cheesed I'd rather everyone knew how to do it rather than a tiny group of elites who use calculators. Seriously, we aren't goonstation.

Grazyn wrote:My suggestion is to remove it from roundstart and make it (high) research only. At least this way it would be akin to the other OP stuff from R&D that you see only late into the round. Seriously, having telescience from the start is like having a phazon spawn in robotics.

This. Make it easier to use but restrict its ability to be used at roundstart so spess exploring for research items is a thing again.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Perakp » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:09 pm #41823

Metagaming telesci coordinates is about as bad as metagaming food & chemistry recipes or how high a dna block you need to have for super powers. Props to those who figured out the recipes without reading the wiki.

Two ideas for balancing it:
Telesci shouldn't be so accurate you can teleport to a specific tile on the map, there should be a small random offset. If you know you are on target you can try to hit it again, but it can take a while, same deal as with genetics.

Or if you want to have an accurate teleport it could take longer and show a flickering effect at the target location. So anyone who sees it can metagame that it's coming from telescience, and either save the weapons that are being stolen or jump in to be teleported aswell.

Or a combination of the two, so the user can choose between a fast, inaccurate teleport, or a slow, visible, but accurate one.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Ricotez » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:24 am #41888

People are going to use this calculator anyway. Better to put everyone on a level playing field.

Maybe even introduce the calculator as a tangible object in-game. You pick it up, use it in your hand, punch the numbers in and it tells you the values you want.
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:24 pm #42032

paprika wrote:There's no problem with this thread's existence or the spread of information. We are not goonstation and I don't think people get banned for spreading information unless it's exploits.

If telescience cannot be done without this calculator, telescience is flawed. If telescience can be cheesed using this calculator, telescience is flawed. Telescience should be about resource usage, AKA bluespace crystals, rather than some advanced math that doesn't take skill when you can put some numbers into a calculator. Telesci, like robotics, should depend on RnD's upgrading to make it more efficient as well as production of bluespace crystals rather than some bogus math that can be cheesed just like a highschool math test. I don't know how telesci really works atm but I'm fairly certain you can upgrade the pad using better parts from RnD, however I'm not sure what it does.

I don't think telesci kleptomania is bad because if people grief with it by stealing from the armory they usually get swift jobbans. Bombing the AI who hasn't shunted takes no real skill when the AI doesn't have borgs and you just use a map like this, it's just a matter of time efficiency with making bombs and setting coords towards the AI since the AI can be hacked out of the APCs and shit. Same with blobs.



A few things here since they don't seem to be based on contact with telesci or actual use of the department.

Telesci does depend on RnD, a lot actually. Even nominal use requires an upgraded capacitor (3 minutes of RnD work) before you even get started. Hitting something as far away as the singulo or the armory requires a super capacitor and/or an extra bluespace crystal (from the station teleporter, a teleporter in space or that one in a million event where RnD actually wastes diamonds on making one)

Armory griff is usually dealt with IC by security if the warden is at all competent. It doesn't take much to realize it happened and takes 3 seconds on the camera console to verify. I've called probably two busts for looting eguns (or masks for some reason.) Even got one to teleport an apology letter onto my desk.

As to the AI, leaving the science department intact while malf and then not shunting before getting bombed is a personal failure on the AI's part. Science should be the department (and maybe engineering but meh) that is most equipped to deal with a rogue/malf AI so it makes sense that the AI would take steps to make sure they cannot be bombed. I've seen malf AI's animate the telesci console to ensure they cannot be bombed at the same time they animated the RD console to protect their borgs. There's counterplay there beyond just turning off the APC. Naturally, non-malf AIs are a little shorter on options, but that's always been the case. Malf AIs are more robust by design as a sole antagonist.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:54 pm #42048

As I said I googled this shit before. Canning this thread again would be pointless. The cat was never in the bag.

Even people who know how to properly do this shit on their own are setting up spreadsheets to save time and looking at maps for coords.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Silavite » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:56 am #42127

paprika wrote:Why not put a crew monitoring console in telesci or even just a board to build a console in telesci

Holy crap guys I think I'm a genius right now can you believe this

Imagine the hijinks!! Imagine the body recovery!


I actually did that one round as the RD teaching a new scientist on R&D. We made a monitoring console in Telescience and recovered two or three bodies. Of course, not everyone will have sensors, so it isn't omnipotent.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:58 am #42128

Silavite wrote:
paprika wrote:Why not put a crew monitoring console in telesci or even just a board to build a console in telesci

Holy crap guys I think I'm a genius right now can you believe this

Imagine the hijinks!! Imagine the body recovery!


I actually did that one round as the RD teaching a new scientist on R&D. We made a monitoring console in Telescience and recovered two or three bodies. Of course, not everyone will have sensors, so it isn't omnipotent.

Its actually common practice for non-antag telescientists to do this either at round start or close to it. That's assuming the AI isn't being a shithead about secure tech storage.

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby callanrockslol » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:28 am #42134

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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby Grazyn » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:08 am #42156

cedarbridge wrote:
Silavite wrote:
paprika wrote:Why not put a crew monitoring console in telesci or even just a board to build a console in telesci

Holy crap guys I think I'm a genius right now can you believe this

Imagine the hijinks!! Imagine the body recovery!


I actually did that one round as the RD teaching a new scientist on R&D. We made a monitoring console in Telescience and recovered two or three bodies. Of course, not everyone will have sensors, so it isn't omnipotent.

Its actually common practice for non-antag telescientists to do this either at round start or close to it. That's assuming the AI isn't being a shithead about secure tech storage.

It's common practice for traitor telescientists too *coff* Kadence *coff*
make a security camera monitoring console and a crew computer (no need for research, just telesteal them from tech storage), wait until your target stands still somewhere or goes afk, teleport him in, subdue, send him right into the singularity. If he keeps moving and you can't kidnap him direcly, wait until he is in some secluded place, teleport yourself in, kill, hide the body, go back to tele and send the body to the singulo. He has his suit sensors off? Just use the map you opened in the background to get his coords.

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fleure
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:50 pm
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby fleure » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:41 pm #42162

Just make telescience a console where you put in the player/item you want, and it has a 50% chance to just space you and ban you from the server permanently.
Ex-/tg/station maintainer for being a lazy shit.

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cedarbridge
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Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
Byond Username: Cedarbridge

Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby cedarbridge » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:41 pm #42180

Grazyn wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Silavite wrote:
paprika wrote:Why not put a crew monitoring console in telesci or even just a board to build a console in telesci

Holy crap guys I think I'm a genius right now can you believe this

Imagine the hijinks!! Imagine the body recovery!


I actually did that one round as the RD teaching a new scientist on R&D. We made a monitoring console in Telescience and recovered two or three bodies. Of course, not everyone will have sensors, so it isn't omnipotent.

Its actually common practice for non-antag telescientists to do this either at round start or close to it. That's assuming the AI isn't being a shithead about secure tech storage.

It's common practice for traitor telescientists too *coff* Kadence *coff*
make a security camera monitoring console and a crew computer (no need for research, just telesteal them from tech storage), wait until your target stands still somewhere or goes afk, teleport him in, subdue, send him right into the singularity. If he keeps moving and you can't kidnap him direcly, wait until he is in some secluded place, teleport yourself in, kill, hide the body, go back to tele and send the body to the singulo. He has his suit sensors off? Just use the map you opened in the background to get his coords.

Sounds roughly like a plan I hatched as a clown once to get back at a shitty warden. I never did manage to get it to grab him though because I was awful at telesci at the time and didn't understand what "false positives" meant.

kosmos
 
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:59 pm
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Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby kosmos » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:04 pm #42198

I'm pretty sure the only ones complaining about these tools know how to read the code and have probably made their own telescience excel sheets already and are only afraid of people getting even with them.
To the people who think this should be removed: how is this any different than reading the code and seeing how the game works from there?

And it's not just about telescience, this situation could be applied to anything on the game (e.g. armor stats, chemistry formulas). By forbidding tools, you're just making it a little more difficult to learn the game, forcing people to look at the code. This would ultimately just make a huge gap between code-illiterate-newbies who don't know anything vs. code-reading-robusters who know everything. And if this is the tool that takes it "too far", isn't the wiki a tool of sorts as well? How is this a different tool, and where should we draw the line?

It's either 1) an open-source game and all possible things go to the wiki for everyone to see. Tools such as this and the wiki can be used.
Or 2) goon-style, we make the source closed and moderate the wiki and forums heavily for secrets not getting given away.

iyaerP
 
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:01 pm
Byond Username: IyaerP

Re: Telescience & Coordinate Maps

Postby iyaerP » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:53 am #43017

Fuck, I made my telescience map from looking at the code maps. And speaking as an software engineering student, the goddamn recalculation math is so fucking obnoxious, that if that app hadn't already existed, I would have written one myself.

The problem is that without such apps, telescience is literally useless.

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