/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

yikes

Shadowflame909 wrote: Being honest, if a headadmin felt like oranges was rigging this thing. They'd of commented in this thread already

r

It doesn't matter if the president of Earth comes and says oranges didn't rig the poll. Oranges did rig the poll. The poll is rigged, and oranges made it... so he rigged the poll.
Did he do it by mistake, without thinking? Or did he do it on purpose because he personally doesn't want catgirls in the game, yet didn't want the backlash involved with removing them himself?
Between how he has been constantly spewing about how ethereals are ONLY getting merged if felinids get removed, and how he refuses to answer questions on the subject, it looks like option #2 is right.

I would reply with your own statistics but you don't have any so yikes :>

here's the official outcome by the way https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 40&t=20294

angelstarri wrote:

PKPPenguin321 wrote:didn't read btw

i know you didn't, your brain is too little to understand any sort of counter argument. i guess that's what you and oranges have in common, aside from never playing in any of the servers and conveniently skipping on answering challenging questions!

jerkin it to this post

I was right, radical centricism won again

>Cat-girls didn't get removed
>No more cat-girls in the future

I told you guys this argument was deadass pointless right when it started. Nothing ever changes!

CosmicScientist wrote:>catgirls will be removed
>nothing ever changes
This is not a radical centre victory.

Yeah but they still exist! r a d i c a l c e n t r a l i s m

CosmicScientist wrote:Do you know what radical centrism is? It's sitting on the fence and refusing to budge an inch onto either side. It would also be refusing a resolution that is neither both sides losing nor both sides winning.

Hey man. My definition of Radical Centrism is that no one wins and No one loses.

Cat-Girl players still keep there character? They win

Cat-Girls eventually phase out when cat-girl players get bored? The anti-cat-girl players win.

Cat-girls become nothing more then a distant meme because anyone who wants to play a cat-girl goes to citadel.

It works out for both sides! The only way it wouldn't is if you want to have your cake and eat it too

CosmicScientist wrote:My mistake, rereading the actual state to-be-made changes means the only difference in status quo is ethereals and a second config option that doesn't matter since headmins of this or downstreams can simply enable/disable catgirls with an existing config defaulted to off, i.e. anyone who wants catgirls would go to the effort to get them and wouldn't want to make them a limited time offer... especially given how losing character records has and will happen.

So you are right, radical centrism did win.

In a balanced democracy. It always does

actually, we won, this is the end of catpeople

hey since we're pulling IRL politics into this when do we rise up and seize the means of production for the proletariat

iamgoofball wrote:actually, we won, this is the end of catpeople

this isn't an ending, but a beginning

angelstarri wrote:

Qbmax32 wrote:[youtube]MFTh8pjtQYY[/youtube]

imagine using your time making a custom video that no one is going to click on to insult someone



i don't even play as a catgirl btw but not like you could know that since you have 0 hours of playtime

Written like a true bootyblasted catgirl player.

As soon as foreskin restoration treatments reach the market, all of these American mutilation victims are going to change their minds about catgirls.

Why was so much time spent on the wording of the poll only for it to end up being vague and non-definite anyways? If the majority of players want felinids gone, then that's fine, but we can't have a poll that makes people think they won't get ethereals or whatever else without also removing cats. I honestly think we need another poll, and I'm not just saying that to use as some sort of lame stalling tactic. I hardly even care about cats myself at this point, but on a matter of principle, we probably should have one.

Bawhoppennn wrote: If the majority of players want felinids gone, then that's fine, but we can't have a poll that makes people think they won't get ethereals or whatever else without also removing cats.

Oranges took great pains to let everyone know that he would not merge ethereals unless they voted to remove cats. There wasn't ambiguous bias, it was right out in the open.

TGstation already had the fair and balanced polls you're talking about having, and felinids won both of them, so rigging the third one like this was necessary to get the desired result.

headmins signed off on it and then were too embarrassed to correct it when the implications of the wording was brought to their attention after

Qbmax32 wrote:[img]https://image.ibb.co/moOEvA/Screenshot-2018-11-10-at-10-17-26-PM.png[/img]

its oranges stop saying Oranges or ill fucking click the button dont test me

Some people right?

Also did christmas come early? Cause this thread is truly a gift. Honestly, I don't see a problem with letting people know your plans should they choose to vote one way or another, calling it bribery seems like a pretty biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

iamgoofball wrote:hey since we're pulling IRL politics into this when do we rise up and seize the means of production for the proletariat

N O W

Lazengann wrote:headmins signed off on it and then were too embarrassed to correct it when the implications of the wording was brought to their attention after

Regardless of whether other people agreed to the poll, oranges made the poll. Is the person making the poll not meant to be totally impartial? It doesn't look like that's the case here. Imagine if the dude in charge of voting machines was a raging Vermin Supreme supporter, that probably wouldn't be a good idea. He might make an IRV machine with options like

1. vote for Clinton
2. vote for Bush
3. vote for Vermin Supreme and I give you a handjob

and that wouldn't be conducive to an accurate democracy, would it?

no the headmins are in charge of server polls because that's how the separation of codebase and server goes

Lazengann wrote:no the headmins are in charge of server polls because that's how the separation of codebase and server goes

Why did oranges make the poll, then? And why is he announcing the results?
What do headmins have to do with oranges bribing the voter to get his favored result?

It was oranges who said, "I will only do a guaranteed merge of ethereals if felinids lose the vote". Headmins did not make him say that. Oranges is not a child and is responsible for his fuckups.

he's the code guy, headmins aren't able to take code action on the results because that's how separation of codebase and server goes

Lazengann wrote:he's the code guy, headmins aren't able to take code action on the results because that's how separation of codebase and server goes

Oranges wrote the poll options himself. PKP, someone defending him earlier in the thread, said this and seems to be sure of it.
If headmins are responsible for polls and oranges is just the code monkey who makes it technically happen, please explain to me why he wrote the poll options, including the ones containing voter bribery.

it was a joint effort between departments and this is what we ended up with

Lazengann wrote:it was a joint effort between departments and this is what we ended up with

And in this joint effort between the very separate & distinct departments of code and server, I think it would be fair to say that oranges deserves the majority of the blame for the poll being botched given that he wrote the poll and all of its options and also chose to exercise his power as headcoder to say "This popular PR will not be merged unless catgirls lose the vote".

he hasn't even officially announced the results and what's going to be done

Lazengann wrote:he hasn't even officially announced the results and what's going to be done

He did
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 4&p=453522

But the results and actions were announced...

oh whoops he stuck it in announcements which I don't check ever. What about the compromise doesn't satisfy you?

Lazengann wrote:oh whoops he stuck it in announcements which I don't check ever. What about the compromise doesn't satisfy you?

The fact that any action whatsoever was taken based on the results of a flawed, biased vote that bribes the voter with the promise of new content in exchange for oranges' favored result winning.

I also think the compromise itself is just bad. A lot of people will view this as a political thing, and the fact that both parties got fucked will make them happy. I am thinking about the issue itself and it's just bad. New players will join and wonder why they can't pick the catgirl race, and someone will have to explain to explain this shit to them. What does it actually solve?

Also, the compromise itself is a political move. Oranges slantedly admits multiple times in the thread that it's just a tactic to reduce support for felinids and that he plans to eventually remove them. It's not a compromise intended to satisfy both parties, it's oranges doing the most he can safely do right now.

saying it's a bribe is a strange argument because it's admitting that ethereals are a more desirable race than cats. If they weren't then it wouldn't be a bribe. And if one feature is more desirable than another then it makes sense to replace the less good with the more good.

Lazengann wrote:saying it's a bribe is a strange argument because it's admitting that ethereals are a more desirable race than cats. If they weren't then it wouldn't be a bribe. And if one feature is more desirable than another then it makes sense to replace the less good with the more good.

Etherals are brand new, never before seen content that has not even been testmerged. Of course people want to play them. Etherals can be added without removing felinids. If a race needs to be replaced to implement etherals (it doesn't), the vastly less popular flypeople are a perfect candidate.

It is bribery, this is not a strange argument, it's factually correct. Including a "Remove felinids and I merge <x> enticing new race" option without a "Keep felinids and I merge <x> enticing new race" option is voter bribery. It is also a misuse of his headcoder privileges to influence a server poll (something you just said should fall totally to the headmins.) Oranges publicly said in more than one place that he would not do a guaranteed merge of etherals unless catgirls lost the vote, he made this as clear to the voters as he possibly could because he wanted the bribery to be more effective.

flypeople exist as a punishment for teleporter abuse and therefore have gameplay value

No other race has gained as much controversy as Catpeople, so it does make sense they'd be up on the exchange board for something more desirable.

Lazengann wrote:flypeople exist as a punishment for teleporter abuse and therefore have gameplay value

Okay, let's have a vote concerning whether flypeople or felinids should be removed to "make room" for etherals, if you are really unironically backing yourself into the tiny, tiny corner of saying that this is an issue of race congestion.

There has never been a debate on removing Flypeople, they are a punishment race for misusing a ingame mechanic.

The issue has been congestion of round start races, of which Catpeople are.

Steelpoint wrote:No other race has gained as much controversy as Catpeople, so it does make sense they'd be up on the exchange board for something more desirable.

Controversy is absolutely not a reason to remove something. Oranges is really controversial, I guess we had better remove him as headcoder.

You'd have to be blind to miss the fact that ever since Catpeople were added we've seen constant and consistent debates, discussion and drama surrounding them. I do not think there is any other feature in the game that has gained this level of controversy over such an extended period of time.

Steelpoint wrote:There has never been a debate on removing Flypeople, they are a punishment race for misusing a ingame mechanic.

The issue has been congestion of round start races, of which Catpeople are.

Flypeople are a roundstart race, as I have already said earlier.

three pages ago, me wrote:

Qustinnus wrote: >roundstart
dumb person

Flypeople are a roundstart race
To all users who do not regularly play the game, I recommend you refrain from commenting in this thread.

But they are also a punishment race for misuse of the Teleporter.

Controversy is a reason to remove something why wouldn't it be

Steelpoint wrote:You'd have to be blind to miss the fact that ever since Catpeople were added we've seen constant and consistent debates, discussion and drama surrounding them. I do not think there is any other feature in the game that has gained this level of controversy over such an extended period of time.

You are right. If something is controversial, that is, if people care about it, we must remove it. Everything filled with passion must be cut out and replaced with pleasant and safe tapioca pudding that offends no one.

Oranges has been the subject of much controversy, so by your own logic we have to replace him. Sorry. My hands are tied.

Except the level of controversy surrounding Catpeople has resulted in a unprecedented level of administration interventions, including multiple config changes, many polls and entire campaigns based around the retention or removal of them.

Sorry to be frank but we've seen many a passionate feature removed from the game, no one cares how much effort you put into something but if it does not mesh well or is too divisive then it gets the cut.

Also, equating removing or reworking controversial features into banning a controversial person from the game is a poor argument.

I'd fill a catgirl with my passion if you know what I mean

Steelpoint wrote:Except the level of controversy surrounding Catpeople has resulted in a unprecedented level of administration interventions, including multiple config changes, many polls and entire campaigns based around the retention or removal of them.

Oranges as well. This whole thread is the result of his actions. He has caused multiple headmin interventions, not just in this issue but in others. You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

The mobius loop of retardation

>I want this feature removed, I will complain about it
>People are saying there is no reason to remove it?! This is controversy!
>It is controversial, see? This is why you should remove it!

It's like getting arrested for the sole charge of resisting arrest. I can barely comprehend the mental gymnastics

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

I'm glad you've seen the light on the catgirl issue. Good luck with removing oranges!

Are you intentionally ignoring the reasonings for wanting to remove Catpeople?

Well, either way. I feel afelindisfinetoo is intentionally just stirring the pot and is not contributing to the discussion, so I'll not be arguing the case with them any further.

Lazengann wrote:

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:You were exactly right, controversy is grounds for removal, and that is why we have to remove oranges. You said it better than I could have.

I'm glad you've seen the light on the catgirl issue. Good luck with removing oranges!

Great, then this issue is closed.

I still have some unanswered questions I would love for us to move on to:

Why does the poll that you made hold that it's necessary to remove felinids in order to add etherals?
Is there some reason why a race needs to be removed in order for etherals to be added? If this is a congestion issue, why is it that felinids (the most popular nonhuman race) would be removed to make room when you could instead remove, for instance, flypeople?
Was the inclusion of the "Remove felinids and add <x> enticing new race" poll options an attempt to persuade the voters to vote to remove felinids? If not, what was your specific motivation in making these poll options?
How are etherals or IPCs relevant to this poll's stated premise, which was to gauge whether or not felinids belong in the game? Do you believe that motivating the voters with the promise of other races in any way taints the poll?

Substitute "you" for "oranges" as necessary for the questions to properly parse. Please remember to answer all of them and not just one. It won't take long.

I still can't tell if this is some kind of 7D chess galaxy brain trolling or if you actually lack this much reading comprehension.
Either way this is one of the funniest forum threads I have read in a long time.