Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

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Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby John Smith » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:37 pm #454191

This isn't relegated to just the recent and controversial feline vote. It seems at every turn when it comes to counting votes the desired results of the people in charge somehow always become the default option, or the option with 4 ways of voting for it, and only a single way to vote against it. On top of this, they host the votes in rounds, rather then just taking the vote as it was from the outset, moving the default option to the one they wanted.

This happens with restart votes too. If you don't vote, you're counted as a no vote, rather then as not voting at all, so even if a voting majority decides to restart, the restart will more then likely not take place because the majority of players did not participate in the vote.

It doesn't matter what the vote is, the monarchs in charge will find a way to count them the way they want them to add up.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Qustinnus » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:48 pm #454192


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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby John Smith » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:51 pm #454194

Qustinnus wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

You think I can read?
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby delaron » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:06 pm #454207

Qustinnus wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting



Yeah TG does pretty much the laziest version of IRV and fails victims to all the issues it has. IRV was built/ geared
More for candidates direct voting. On issue voting it becomes sensitive to option questioning and double barrel pitfalls.

One way to combat this is to do a top two run off vote and also have a null after this option with a barrier to success of a percentage of voting base.

I've brought this up and been called delusional even though it's a issue I stated that's beyond the cat vote. Hell read your wiki link it goes into all this.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:44 pm #454288

Issue votes are better done via 4 point Likert scale, with no neutral option. It helps you get both the intensity of like or dislike as well as the ratio on any particular issue.

Its what we do in sociological studies in my fancy pants university.

Ranked choice voting doesnt work very well as you cant judge the distance of preference between the options. And if I would use ranked choice I would use it along side a Likert scale so you can better judge the overall attitude.

Also the questions in the last felinid poll were pretty trademark leading questions filled with false choices. As well as a mismatch in the options.

You dont run a ranked choice poll on a question when there are really only 2 options, it is bad poll design.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby NikNakFlak » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:52 pm #454290

Restart votes don't even work if an admin is online, you are all not so secretly under the adminbus boot. Democracy is dead, long live the INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 am #454308

you are spending too much time worrying about the voting system in a 2d spessman game.

THere's very little direct democracy, the codebase is an autocracy in a nuclear cold war with the server, the server is a dictatorship with a benevolent dictator who lets an elected council run it.

The particular style of voting for things doesn't matter because it rarely comes up.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Digdugxx » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:10 am #454319

Having four options for and one against your personal vendetta is pretty scummy, it's also worded in such a way that implies the user had to sacrifice felines in return for cool new races when in reality those new races would soon come around anyway.

I don't think someone orchestrating a rigged vote has any right to say we're worrying too much about it. A player vote is for the players to make, not the guy setting it up

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby confused rock » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:40 am #454323

Wording your post to imply the new races would soon come around anyway despite that being a complete and utter lie is pretty scummy, digdug. I don't think someone orchestrating slander has any right to say """"we"""" are worrying too little about it. A player vote is for the headmins to spend a week deciding on the wording of, not for an uninvolved guy to decide is unfair.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 am #454336

Digdugxx wrote:Having four options for and one against your personal vendetta is pretty scummy, it's also worded in such a way that implies the user had to sacrifice felines in return for cool new races when in reality those new races would soon come around anyway.

I don't think someone orchestrating a rigged vote has any right to say we're worrying too much about it. A player vote is for the players to make, not the guy setting it up

You have absolutely zero representation, the vote was a nicety, not something I had to do.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:09 am #454349

Digdugxx wrote:Having four options for and one against your personal vendetta is pretty scummy, it's also worded in such a way that implies the user had to sacrifice felines in return for cool new races when in reality those new races would soon come around anyway.

I don't think someone orchestrating a rigged vote has any right to say we're worrying too much about it. A player vote is for the players to make, not the guy setting it up

>not knowing how IRV works
>implying IPCs weren't closed
>implying it's rigged
>implying oranges couldn't have just merged the pr if he wanted to because he can do that as headcoder

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Digdugxx » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:20 am #454400

What I'm saying is if there were just two options. One to keep them and one to remove them, the results would be different since users wouldn't be bribed with the promise of new races. As for being 'nice', we all know how unpopular Lziman was once he forcefully removed races without a word so this is more to cover your own ass.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:09 pm #454424

Digdugxx wrote:What I'm saying is if there were just two options. One to keep them and one to remove them, the results would be different since users wouldn't be bribed with the promise of new races. As for being 'nice', we all know how unpopular Lziman was once he forcefully removed races without a word so this is more to cover your own ass.

Two options doesn't have compromises like partially remove or replace with something better
Also >implying people don't already hate oranges for the poll

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:45 pm #454506

From a neutral standpoint, it is obvious that the result of this vote cannot be taken at face value. The bribery aspect, which was also not truthful ontop of that, is the most severe infraction of the poll-neutrality that stands out.

What I wonder is, what the personal issue of the person that presented these vote options is with those felinids. Because I doubt it's all just incompetence, especially if a seasoned coder was heavily involved. So, what warrants such a flagrant abuse of poll-neutrality, to the detriment of people in favor of felinids?
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:14 pm #454511

Digdugxx wrote:What I'm saying is if there were just two options. One to keep them and one to remove them, the results would be different since users wouldn't be bribed with the promise of new races. As for being 'nice', we all know how unpopular Lziman was once he forcefully removed races without a word so this is more to cover your own ass.

take out those options and removal still wins.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:19 pm #454514

BONERMASTER wrote:From a neutral standpoint, it is obvious that the result of this vote cannot be taken at face value. The bribery aspect, which was also not truthful ontop of that, is the most severe infraction of the poll-neutrality that stands out.

What I wonder is, what the personal issue of the person that presented these vote options is with those felinids. Because I doubt it's all just incompetence, especially if a seasoned coder was heavily involved. So, what warrants such a flagrant abuse of poll-neutrality, to the detriment of people in favor of felinids?


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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Qbmax32 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:59 pm #454526

You forgot the 2018 joindate
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 pm #454535

That feels really hurtful. I don't want to put you down, or make myself more important than anyone. But I see that one group of players is very unfairly treated by this poll, and I want to know why.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:25 am #454546

oranges wrote:you are spending too much time worrying about the voting system in a 2d spessman game.

THere's very little direct democracy, the codebase is an autocracy in a nuclear cold war with the server, the server is a dictatorship with a benevolent dictator who lets an elected council run it.

The particular style of voting for things doesn't matter because it rarely comes up.

did you all just not read this or what

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:26 am #454547

oranges wrote:
Digdugxx wrote:What I'm saying is if there were just two options. One to keep them and one to remove them, the results would be different since users wouldn't be bribed with the promise of new races. As for being 'nice', we all know how unpopular Lziman was once he forcefully removed races without a word so this is more to cover your own ass.

take out those options and removal still wins.

fuck it, take out those options then if they demand it so much, full removal here we go

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Toronto88 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:20 am #454567

BONERMASTER wrote:From a neutral standpoint, it is obvious that the result of this vote cannot be taken at face value. The bribery aspect, which was also not truthful ontop of that, is the most severe infraction of the poll-neutrality that stands out.

What I wonder is, what the personal issue of the person that presented these vote options is with those felinids. Because I doubt it's all just incompetence, especially if a seasoned coder was heavily involved. So, what warrants such a flagrant abuse of poll-neutrality, to the detriment of people in favor of felinids?



BONERMASTER wrote:That feels really hurtful. I don't want to put you down, or make myself more important than anyone. But I see that one group of players is very unfairly treated by this poll, and I want to know why.


You are not taking into account the feelings of the people not in favor of felinids. The poll had options that people could choose, and a certain option won. It is hurtful to the players who earnestly participated in the democratic process, stated their opinions, and now have others trying to condemn and shame them for their views, as well as reverse their rightfully earned result. One group of players would be very unfairly treated by the reversal of this poll's consequences. I want to know why you think that'd be OK.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:50 am #454616

Toronto88 wrote:
BONERMASTER wrote:From a neutral standpoint, it is obvious that the result of this vote cannot be taken at face value. The bribery aspect, which was also not truthful ontop of that, is the most severe infraction of the poll-neutrality that stands out.[...]


BONERMASTER wrote:[...]I see that one group of players is very unfairly treated by this poll, and I want to know why.


You are not taking into account the feelings of the people not in favor of felinids. The poll had options that people could choose, and a certain option won. It is hurtful to the players who earnestly participated in the democratic process, stated their opinions, and now have others trying to condemn and shame them for their views, as well as reverse their rightfully earned result. One group of players would be very unfairly treated by the reversal of this poll's consequences. I want to know why you think that'd be OK.


I don't think you are being sincere here. But before we talk about reversing the poll, we have to talk about it's legitimacy. To remove someone's favourite race is an extreme measure, and I would expect that at least the poll itself would be unbiased to have the most clear picture of what the voters want. That, is not the case in this poll here. I have already stated, that there was a bribery aspect to it, which was also not truthful either, and there were I believe 4 options against felinids, every single one of which explicitly stated their removal as a roundstart race, and a singular one in favor of them, which all it said was that they may remain as is.

I think these are very valid concerns, which put in question the motive and reasoning behind this vote, which I would like to know. Because these reasons must be weighted out against the desire for a not too small part of the playerbase to play as catgirls or interact with them. And if these reasons do not weigh out a very basic right of free expression, then a discussion about reversing the poll results is more than in order.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:45 am #454642

Not only is it impossible to say "If you take out those options felinids still lose" (because it is physically impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options) it's also irrelevant. The point is that you attempted to slant the vote, oranges, not whether or not it worked.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:00 am #454646

ahh the SPA is back

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:10 am #454666

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:Not only is it impossible to say "If you take out those options felinids still lose" (because it is physically impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options) it's also irrelevant. The point is that you attempted to slant the vote, oranges, not whether or not it worked.

aha, we have now proven they are not actually reading the finer details on any replies, will the mods ban this person for being a troll or will they make vague threats at me again over discord?

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:21 am #454669

It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options. See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20294&start=100#p453892 discussion chain

You are getting really unhinged, goofball. I am not an alt-right Russian bot and I'm not messaging you on discord. I don't have discord installed on my computer. Get help for the paranoia.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:44 am #454674

your suggestion is that the pro cat people were influenced by the options, but your only example is someone who was virulently anti catgirl.

Your evidence is specious at best, whereas I have the best evidence, an IRV poll, with ranked voting that allows me to eliminate votes and vote options according to filters and rerank according to peoples exact preferences, which means I know that removing the etherals and IPC options leaves remove catgirls as the highest option, indicating that adding those two options did little to change the overall vote outcome, but giving us more detailed information about the levels of tradeoff people were willing to accept should catgirls be removed.

Now of course none of this is really anything you care to hear, or acknowledge, let alone the fact that we have come up with a very workable and palatable compromise that everyone rational has agreed is pretty good. Because that doesn't fit your agenda, which is to convince people to ignore the outcome of the poll and align only with the option you feel is best fit for yourself.

I don't' know why I continue to play along with this mindless game where you repeat the same tired memes over and over and draw the same specious conclusions, but I guess I have more spare time while I'm currently on leave so I may as well indulge myself.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:52 am #454676

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options.

You are getting really unhinged, goofball. I am not an alt-right Russian bot and I'm not messaging you on discord. I don't have discord installed on my computer. Get help for the paranoia.


is there any context to be given for this or

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Anuv » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:09 am #454682

Rofl why was catgirl removal paired with the bribe of adding a new cool race for no reason and given 4 options for removal but only 1 to keep, this is literally the dumbest vote ever and whoever came up with it should be hanged
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:27 am #454687

Anuv wrote:Rofl why was catgirl removal paired with the bribe of adding a new cool race for no reason and given 4 options for removal but only 1 to keep, this is literally the dumbest vote ever and whoever came up with it should be hanged

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Karp » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:59 am #454694

oranges wrote:
Anuv wrote:Rofl why was catgirl removal paired with the bribe of adding a new cool race for no reason and given 4 options for removal but only 1 to keep, this is literally the dumbest vote ever and whoever came up with it should be hanged

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Screemonster » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:07 pm #454695

if thess threads go on any longer I'm gonna fill up my loyalty card for a free salty bucket at colonel kernel's popcorn emporium

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BONERMASTER » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:51 pm #454699

oranges wrote:bottom text


Oranges, I would prefer if instead of tossing out one-liners, that you explained to this discussiongroup why you deemed it necessary to remove felinids, and why you chose to lay the poll out in a biased way. Because the statement "Replace felinids with Ethereals" insinuates that only by voting this option that the ethereal-race would be available, which is not true, the race was planned to enter the game the entire time, and it is also not relevant to the fate of the felinids. You knew this, I want to know what your motive was behind this vote.

I want to add, that you referred to this poll, that is this discussion-point of vote manipulation and clearly flawed, as evidence of what the voters want. I would like to point out, that this is not valid evidence.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:14 pm #454702

BONERMASTER wrote:
oranges wrote:bottom text


Oranges, I would prefer if instead of tossing out one-liners, that you explained to this discussiongroup why you deemed it necessary to remove felinids, and why you chose to lay the poll out in a biased way. Because the statement "Replace felinids with Ethereals" insinuates that only by voting this option that the ethereal-race would be available, which is not true, the race was planned to enter the game the entire time, and it is also not relevant to the fate of the felinids. You knew this, I want to know what your motive was behind this vote.

I want to add, that you referred to this poll, that is this discussion-point of vote manipulation and clearly flawed, as evidence of what the voters want. I would like to point out, that this is not valid evidence.

The one liner is replying to an inane post that doesn't understand IRV
Also it's totally valid remove wins even without the ethereal option

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:33 pm #454703

somerandomguy wrote:Also it's totally valid remove wins even without the ethereal option


Wrong. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20333&p=454669#p454642

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby somerandomguy » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:44 pm #454706

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:Also it's totally valid remove wins even without the ethereal option


Wrong. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20333&p=454669#p454642

Wrong. See "doesn't understand IRV"
This is so blatant it's obvious you don't care about the poll's validity, you're either salty or shitposting

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby bman » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:32 pm #454712

I RAPED ORANGES

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pryce bax.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby bman » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:49 pm #454714

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:51 pm #454715

iamgoofball wrote:
afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options.

You are getting really unhinged, goofball. I am not an alt-right Russian bot and I'm not messaging you on discord. I don't have discord installed on my computer. Get help for the paranoia.


is there any context to be given for this or

Still waiting on context or does answering this just not work for you

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby afelinidisfinetoo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:12 pm #454717

iamgoofball wrote:...

I'm pretty sure in some other thread you said I was an alt-right bot, and in this one you accused me of harassing you on discord or something

I don't pay very much attention to what you're saying so I might be wrong

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:47 pm #454732

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:...

I'm pretty sure in some other thread you said I was an alt-right bot, and in this one you accused me of harassing you on discord or something

I don't pay very much attention to what you're saying so I might be wrong

fact check next time dumbass

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iksyp » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:19 pm #454740

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:...

I'm pretty sure in some other thread you said I was an alt-right bot, and in this one you accused me of harassing you on discord or something

I don't pay very much attention to what you're saying so I might be wrong

correction straight from snopes guys:
goof called you an alt account of someone else and said you were using the alt right's playbook to further your argument (that means their tactics of argument, not their ideals)
this roughly translates to you're both dumb
hello how are you

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Nilons » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:32 pm #454745

afelinidisfinetoo wrote:It is impossible to tell how the vote would have gone without those options. See viewtopic.php?f=40&t=20294&start=100#p453892 discussion chain

You are getting really unhinged, goofball. I am not an alt-right Russian bot and I'm not messaging you on discord. I don't have discord installed on my computer. Get help for the paranoia.

This is definitely a sawrge alt they're using the same phrasing
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Screemonster » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:32 pm #454755

come on guys if you're gonna accuse goof of being some secret undercover agent with a hidden agenda in this vote then go all-out

I present goof's TRUE FORM

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:33 pm #454768

afelinidsifinetoo and iamgoofball are doing an excellent job of making both sides of the debate look stupid. i wouldn't be surprised if it's actually goof's alt account being used to make the cat side look stupid.
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby D&B » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:03 pm #454778

Posting before it gets moved to the hut
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:17 pm #454837

oranges wrote:You have absolutely zero representation, the vote was a nicety, not something I had to do.


So tell the players that instead of hiding behind rigged polls.

Oh wait anyone that disagrees with you is a catperson/weeb/alt account. You and goof truly are human garbage. Half this shit wouldn't even be drama if you didn't feel so entitled to being a prick to everyone.

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby confused rock » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:38 pm #454847

plot twist, goof is felinid's alt account trying to make normal people look stupid
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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:42 pm #454851

Zarniwoop wrote:
So tell the players that instead of hiding behind rigged polls.

"the poll didnt go the way I wanted to SO ITS RIGGED"

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Re: Excessive Vote Manipulation on /tg/

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:55 pm #454853

oranges wrote:which means I know that removing the etherals and IPC options leaves remove catgirls as the highest option, indicating that adding those two options did little to change the overall vote outcome, but giving us more detailed information about the levels of tradeoff people were willing to accept should catgirls be removed.

The mere fact that the options were there impact how people think about the vote, though. You have evidence to show that removing catpeople would still win however it would still be physically impossible to see what would've won if the option(s) of 'hey guys if you vote this then catpeople will be removed and you will get to play as the john wick race or lame fucking robots but whatever' wasn't there

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