/tg/Station 13

Just like everything in this world, you can have too little of something and too much.

How easily do we want to make it for people to die and not get back into the round?

How much balancing would this require?
(Ex. Higher tier antagonist tools. War-Ops. Megafauna.)

What do you hypothesize will happen to the player base from these types of changes?

Saving people from death should take more effort than it does now.

Cloning should be an involved process, and revival pods seem to be an easy get-out-of-jail free card.

I think people should be more resilient in the face of damage (i.e. can survive longer in crit), but we need a medical rework in general.

Farquaar wrote:Saving people from death should take more effort than it does now.

Cloning should be an involved process, and revival pods seem to be an easy get-out-of-jail free card.

I think people should be more resilient in the face of damage (i.e. can survive longer in crit), but we need a medical rework in general.

The problem with complex medical is it requires competent medical doctors to heal you. Saving people should remain laughably easy until there is a guarantee that medical attention will be attainable. On some low pop rounds there is no one even in medical and often the ones who are have no clue what they are doing. I once had 3 people in medical fuck up a basic surgery and then just give up and toss the body in the cloner. I wouldn’t trust them to figure out how to fix any injuries I would get from reworked med.

NoxVS wrote:

Farquaar wrote:Saving people from death should take more effort than it does now.

Cloning should be an involved process, and revival pods seem to be an easy get-out-of-jail free card.

I think people should be more resilient in the face of damage (i.e. can survive longer in crit), but we need a medical rework in general.

The problem with complex medical is it requires competent medical doctors to heal you. Saving people should remain laughably easy until there is a guarantee that medical attention will be attainable. On some low pop rounds there is no one even in medical and often the ones who are have no clue what they are doing. I once had 3 people in medical fuck up a basic surgery and then just give up and toss the body in the cloner. I wouldn’t trust them to figure out how to fix any injuries I would get from reworked med.

I agree with this. We're currently far too low RP before we can make more heavy, knowledge requirements on the medical system.

It's why I feel we're doing things in the wrong order of operations. Which will only cause you to fail your math test

Medical is braindead easy at the moment. We shouldn't be obligated to make medical boring to cater to dumb players. You'd probably see more competent players in medical roles if it wasn't such a snoozefest.

Farquaar wrote:Medical is braindead easy at the moment. We shouldn't be obligated to make medical boring to cater to dumb players. You'd probably see more competent players in medical roles if it wasn't such a snoozefest.

No one would play med if it takes any amount of time to heal someone, because people get injured frequently

Nobody plays medical because you don't need to be a MD to stuff someone in a sleeper or cloner, everything else can be handled by a competent chemist (very rare sight)

Playing MD is 75% waiting around for something to happen, 5% stuffing people in sleepers, 20% of shit hitting the fan so now everyone is just raiding storage to steal medkits and yanking people out of your arms while you're trying to defib

Make death harder to come back from. Make medical slightly more complicated. I'm not saying bay level but it's at the stage right now where its basically nonexistent.

I have some other thoughts but at the doctors getting stuff done just typing this while I wait.

Doctors are already pathetic, 90% of the time you’re bleeding and fall over they procedd to drag you for a fucking marathon and you lose 200% your blood

I wish virology was in charge of curing disease, not chemistry. A viro is fucking obsolete if someone grabs the pandemoc (well they already are with the holodeck) and creating the same heal virus every time has astonishingly low variety. Otherwise, diseases spread incredibly easily. I wish viros cured disease in the same way they make them or something, and event diseases were less rare but harder to spread.

make healing yourself more difficult

Make bullets imbed like they do on goon, that alone would make medbay more useful as the most common gun type suddenly gives you wounds you need medbay to fully cure.

On goon you can patch up the wound, but if you have bullets in you, youll take continuous brute damage and blood loss until you get the bullets out, which is done via a seriously simple surgery.

Dr_bee wrote:Make bullets imbed like they do on goon, that alone would make medbay more useful as the most common gun type suddenly gives you wounds you need medbay to fully cure.

On goon you can patch up the wound, but if you have bullets in you, youll take continuous brute damage and blood loss until you get the bullets out, which is done via a seriously simple surgery.

So, give bullets an embedding chance like spears and metal rods?

We already have a system for it. You'll take brute damage continuously, but you can also pick the items out of you. You take damage if they fall out/or you successfully pull it out.

I'm unsure how much damage per tick you'd want the embedding system to have if you can no longer take it out.

as if laser guns don't need more nerfs

I’d rather the game stayed fast and fun. If I wanted a more immersive game, I’d go elsewhere. Make a separate RP server if y’all want it that much. Stop trying to force all this crap on players that are here for the clusterfuck that we love. Add posthumous organ harvesting or some shit if the docs really need something to sperg out on.

Zarniwoop wrote:I’d rather the game stayed fast and fun. If I wanted a more immersive game, I’d go elsewhere. Make a separate RP server if y’all want it that much. Stop trying to force all this crap on players that are here for the clusterfuck that we love. Add posthumous organ harvesting or some shit if the docs really need something to sperg out on.

As much as you disagree. This is the direction that a maintainer would like to go in.


The head-admins are a little bit iffy because you can't really get much out of them. It's a lengthy process to get any rulings that have to be agreed on by a whole. Which takes a whole lot of time.


So all in all. Some directional changes are being made. But, I'd rather the changes being talked about as a whole on things liked to be seen. So when a random change, that let us say makes RP more enforced. Or if 20 Telecrystal traitor items suddenly start getting nerfed en mass. The backlash would be far less, as it isn't out of the blue and unexpected.

Tldr: I would prefer the damage be minimized, to a splash of cold water. Then a splash of boiling water.

Make surgery needed for serious injuries but make it lightning-fast goon-style surgery

As I've shitposted elsewhere
Full on respawn ghost roles spoil people - why would you ever pick a scientist’s slave golem when you can be a free one? Why go holopara or pai when you can go ashwalker or posibrain? It’s at the point where the literal fucking respawn of the research station ruin is never used.
More annoying lifeweb comparison times
I don't think it'd be very hard to increase the overall health for crit/make lifeweb death come into play where people only completely die outside succumbing if they take rapid shocking massive damage (somebody stabs your heart out/crushes your skull) or you run outta blood or your brain stops doing a think. Hardcrit being any survival state you couldn't recover from on your own was interesting there- could be anything from needing chest compressions to restart your heart to needing an entirely new heart, could be started because you bled half your blood out from a gaping wound or because something cracked when the guy hit you over the head. Otherwise, you'll probably just be on the floor, maybe able to stand, maybe collapsing from time to time or slowed down from pain. Maybe you'll need a doc, maybe you can sleep it off.

Remove all ghost roles for dead people and make them observer-only

Also remove defibrillators, thus leaving Cloning, pod-cloning, and Strange Reagent as the only ways for dead losers to come back

"we"

its currently super easy to heal as even white medkits have 960 HP worth of healing + other supplies + sleepers (infinite chems ((even strong ones like pentetic))), cryo whole purpose is to heal clone dmg but after 15 min in round when magical sci man clicks the cloning machines they no longer give clone dmg so they are useless
my idea:
- make cloning still give the same clone dmg but it ejects ppl from pods faster ( less work -> less reward)
- nerf free healing from shit like white medkits and sleepers which makes medical job as trivial as hit man with medkit
- add a system like we have for brain traumas but for the whole body and increase means of internal organs damage, like projectiles + explosions + really sharp items could cause them
- buff bleeding as it currently only seems to be a problem when the dude has been in crit for 5 min and most of healing will happen before the dude lost 5% of his blood
- whats the point of chemist and medical being different jobs: chemist either does some shit for himself and then dies/fucks off or botany steals their dispensers, while doctors dont even need any extra chemical as upgraded sleeper + bottle pills in genetics + shitloads of medical supplies just make it redunant for chemist job to exist, remove it and make medical have access to chemistry

dragging a body or head back to cloning seems pretty reasonable. I always liked the idea that a would be assassin needs to take care of the body. As for medical treatment being too simple, depends on the pacing you guys are aiming for, I prefer the fast and simple we have now and I'd prefer to get out of medical relatively quickly after being cloned. That said, if people want more involving medical work I can understand that. Medical Doctor are a joke as is.

oranges wrote:"we"

Oranges I am literally trying to steal flashlight code to add a flashlight onto the kinetic crusher to save Shadow-people from it's perma-light.

I thonk I can be included in this.

inb4 lifeweb respawning, only corpses the chaplain has properly laid to rest can use ghost roles and gibbed corpses can use a ghost role besides pai or slave golem after 20 minutes

I like life being cheap and replacable. If you wanna greentext just get better at ensuring your foes defeat

NoxVS wrote:

Farquaar wrote:Saving people from death should take more effort than it does now.

Cloning should be an involved process, and revival pods seem to be an easy get-out-of-jail free card.

I think people should be more resilient in the face of damage (i.e. can survive longer in crit), but we need a medical rework in general.

The problem with complex medical is it requires competent medical doctors to heal you. Saving people should remain laughably easy until there is a guarantee that medical attention will be attainable. On some low pop rounds there is no one even in medical and often the ones who are have no clue what they are doing. I once had 3 people in medical fuck up a basic surgery and then just give up and toss the body in the cloner. I wouldn’t trust them to figure out how to fix any injuries I would get from reworked med.

Newbies join medical because it's easy, medical wasn't made easy because newbies were on it.

Is there really a need to make death more impactful?

Mark9013100 wrote:Is there really a need to make death more impactful?

It's the code direction we're heading in gamer. I don't know much, but what I do know is that whatever happens will probably cause immense salt.

I just don't want to be salty because high blood pressure is quite the issue in America.

I think the current players like the fast paced game play of life and death, how the medical system is right now is perfect. Moving to a bay med to slowdown everything will end in catastrophe, while there will be a few who learn and dedicate themselves to the job I feel like it will change the game away from the arcade death simulation most have come to love and enjoy and drive out a large section of the community. Example would be that now most lop pop rounds where the one or two doctors that know anything will be killed and then the rest of the crew will be fucked by a murder boner on a regular basis.

JusticeGoat wrote:Driving off TDM/RDM players is bad.

Nothing wrong with this

oranges wrote:"we"

bit of a tangent here, and i know you're probably joking, but there's a trend with you lately that i've noticed where you're shifting from "i have the final say, but my say might be influenced by a convincing argument" to "i have the final say lol didnt read fuck off." i generally agree with your decisions so i have few qualms about this, but this is the type of attitude that will lead to an inevitable rebase down the line which is drama we don't need. love u oranges stay safe out there and late merry christmas

JusticeGoat wrote:I think the current players like the fast paced game play of life and death, how the medical system is right now is perfect. Moving to a bay med to slowdown everything will end in catastrophe, while there will be a few who learn and dedicate themselves to the job I feel like it will change the game away from the arcade death simulation most have come to love and enjoy and drive out a large section of the community. Example would be that now most lop pop rounds where the one or two doctors that know anything will be killed and then the rest of the crew will be fucked by a murder boner on a regular basis.

I honestly 100 percent agree with you. Currently, we're a fast-paced hyper version of ss13. Shit hits the fan extremely fast, and everyone has to hone their reaction speed to not be the one with their character turned sideways.

But, as stated. The server is taking a shift in multiple ways, towards a slower-paced game with more consequences and more thinking involved before you pull off insane stunts.

Who knows how far we're going. But "we" are going that way in general. So it'd be good to see what everyone feels like is far enough.

JusticeGoat wrote:I think the current players like the fast paced game play of life and death, how the medical system is right now is perfect. Moving to a bay med to slowdown everything will end in catastrophe, while there will be a few who learn and dedicate themselves to the job I feel like it will change the game away from the arcade death simulation most have come to love and enjoy and drive out a large section of the community. Example would be that now most lop pop rounds where the one or two doctors that know anything will be killed and then the rest of the crew will be fucked by a murder boner on a regular basis.

If literally all you want is mechanics with minimal to zero roleplaying, that's the entire reason why Hippie exists. If the game slowing down is that big of a deal to you, just go play on Hippie.
Even then, barely anyone straight up wants baymed they just are saying that the current medical is so hilariously trivial it might as well be replaced with a regenerating health system. Which is pretty true when you can go from barely conscious to like new with about 1-2 minutes and a single white box. That's assuming you don't have access to a second person and medical, where you can go from literally on the brink of death to brand spanking new in less than a minute if the person has an idea what they're doing. That's not even including things like viruses, nanites, specialty healing chems, etc.
I would actually argue that a more in depth medical system would hurt murderboners more than it helps. The biggest reason why it's possible to murderbone so hard right now is the easy availability of self heals back to full health. If taking consistent damage over a sustained period actually punished you further than something you can remove by hiding in a closet for a couple minutes, murderboners would have to both play a lot smarter and a lot better.
Even assuming the murderboner plays flawlessly and all the doctors are dead, that's not that far off from low pop rounds already. Lowpop murderbones as of now are already a complete joke, if you can take out the one or two security members it's a total cakewalk from there.

you can want quick and robust mechanics while also not wanting 0 RP, hence medium RP being a term

"we"

maintainers are the ones who define mechanics, and oranges has already said he isn't interested in much dialog outside of the maintainers, pointless thread

I've never tried to eat s q u i d before

PKPenguin321 wrote:

oranges wrote:"we"

bit of a tangent here, and i know you're probably joking, but there's a trend with you lately that i've noticed where you're shifting from "i have the final say, but my say might be influenced by a convincing argument" to "i have the final say lol didnt read fuck off." i generally agree with your decisions so i have few qualms about this, but this is the type of attitude that will lead to an inevitable rebase down the line which is drama we don't need. love u oranges stay safe out there and late merry christmas

ntstation 2 will be enjoyable to watch foundering in it's own blood just like last time.

I love oranges he is based and redpilled and knows what's right even when people don't

Oranges politely disagrees with two of my ideas

Wtf oranges is ignorant tyrant shitlord, ban him please?????



Lifeweb had good gameplay so I went for it and struggled with its RP, but when I came back to tg I was used to attempting the roleplay standard of lifeweb. When under the low pressure of tg I found roleplay to be actually ENJOYABLE for the first time in my life, since nobody would bwoink me if mine wasn't good enough and it was still higher than ungabunga fuckligger in the other room.

tinodrima7020 wrote:

JusticeGoat wrote:Driving off TDM/RDM players is bad.

Nothing wrong with this

epic strawman dude

Less weapons, harder cloning, more bans. In short, it will never happen.

Honestly, medical is ridiculously easy but that doesn't change the fact that it is already too complicated for the complete retards that play med roles. The facts that there are different healing chemicals that correspond to different chemicals or that hardsuits need to come off before cryo or that defibs exist are already too complex for the type of person that sets doctor to high.

Medbay doctor is also a boring role, not only do you spend most of your time sitting around before briefly helping people, you have little access to anything that gives you any real advantage. You exist purely as the bitch of other people. This alone means that no one experienced is likely to want to be a doctor. After all, what are you going to do if you role antag compared to other jobs.


I honestly don't understand how anyone can look at the absolute subhumans that main medbay doctor and think that you need to make their job more difficult. We will ultimately get the same standard of player, they are not going to magically improve once their job could no longer be done by a 4 year old.

Finally, making it less likely for people to get healed and or cloned isn't really going to make the game less of a deathmatch. It will mean that the stakes are higher and in order to avoid death people will powergame more and take less chances. A nerf to medbay is a buff to murderboning.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

oranges wrote:"we"

bit of a tangent here, and i know you're probably joking, but there's a trend with you lately that i've noticed where you're shifting from "i have the final say, but my say might be influenced by a convincing argument" to "i have the final say lol didnt read fuck off." i generally agree with your decisions so i have few qualms about this, but this is the type of attitude that will lead to an inevitable rebase down the line which is drama we don't need. love u oranges stay safe out there and late merry christmas

oranges is spiralling he's been on a decline for like 6 months.

It's like that thing where a decent show with a loyal audience hits season 11 and every character becomes a more and more extreme caricature of themselves, except he's doing it to himself.

Making death a bit more permanent or harder to fix and making medbay a bit more involved all sounds good... IF we also decide to actually have an escalation policy so that violence and murder isnt so frequent from nonantags. With our current policy I think I could play as a doctor, stand inside medbay, refuse to let people in and then valid them if they break in. So long as its that easy to get away with murder i dont see more complicated healing/cloning/whatever being fun as the pile of bodies will stack up faster than med can deal with them. Even now if someone gets fired out of cloning early and needs new limbs/organs/brainsurgery and such it can be fun spending the 5min to fix the guy up but really itd be faster to kill and reclone him and while you spend 5min on him 10 more hurt/dead guys pile up.

Stickymayhem wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

oranges wrote:"we"

bit of a tangent here, and i know you're probably joking, but there's a trend with you lately that i've noticed where you're shifting from "i have the final say, but my say might be influenced by a convincing argument" to "i have the final say lol didnt read fuck off." i generally agree with your decisions so i have few qualms about this, but this is the type of attitude that will lead to an inevitable rebase down the line which is drama we don't need. love u oranges stay safe out there and late merry christmas

oranges is spiralling he's been on a decline for like 6 months.

It's like that thing where a decent show with a loyal audience hits season 11 and every character becomes a more and more extreme caricature of themselves, except he's doing it to himself.

are you the horse from horsing around

Shh, he's post-irony now shadow, let him finish

lmwevil wrote:"we"

maintainers are the ones who define mechanics, and oranges has already said he isn't interested in much dialog outside of the maintainers, pointless thread

Offering any form of suggestion on the direction of the game is basically trying to gain favour from a indifferent volcano god at this point.

Sure maybe throwing a virgin into the volcano stopped it erupting from perspective of the uneducated savage but it's going to go off whenever with barely any way to be predicted even by the educated up to the modern day.

Maybe if you ask really nicely the volcano god will think about it

Incomp has been whining about volcano gods since 2015, but you don't see him doing anything about it

oranges wrote:Shh, he's post-irony now shadow, let him finish

he's right though, you're becoming more and more indistinguishable from goof

actually, wait, maybe more paprika

DemonFiren wrote:

oranges wrote:Shh, he's post-irony now shadow, let him finish

he's right though, you're becoming more and more indistinguishable from goof

actually, wait, maybe more paprika

not that far, even remotely

it's sad how redpilled this thread is