why is readding Gang so taboo?

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why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:05 am #475045

Gang was removed from the rotation and code gutted entirely for "being shit."

Modes that are worse than gang that were added after gang was removed:
  • Clock cult (was not code gutted): Like gangs, but the finale is 10x longer, conversion is 10x easier, and instead of finding a place on the station to set up a base, they have an entire z-level complete with free building materials and sleepers to set up a base
  • Overthrow (was not code gutted): Complete shitshow, was rightfully removed from the rotation almost immediately (but only because the creator stopped updating it???)
  • Hivemind (not even removed from the rotation): Le mind control, le walk out airlock. A WeLl DeSiGnEd mode that is so eNgAgInG and FuN that 98% of the crew thinks the mode is Extended!

If gang was removed "because it is shit" AND had every single feature and line of code associated with it reverted, why are these modes still in the game to any degree, and why is even mentioning re-adding gang immediately met with "LOL NO"? (although that's only on the forums/discord, a notable amount of people in OOC want gang back)

Discuss the above and also discuss why gang should/should not return.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby TehSteveo » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:30 am #475050

At one time before the meta developed gang was really fun as usually it was gangs fighting eachother. However, after the meta gang just became one gang dying early, one gang puttering out with maybe three people, and one gang taking off that fought security who would just crackdown as soon as a tag was seen. It just felt like playing revolution with guns after the meta set in.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:38 am #475056

Remember that split second period in Gangs when people could order literal Admin Only Mechs and spawn turrets from thin air because they tagged enough places.



The only real reason I found gangs as a better TDM then revs, was the simple fact that everyone was making GTA San Andreas memes and references.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 am #475058

Shadowflame909 wrote:Remember that split second period in Gangs when people could order literal Admin Only Mechs and spawn turrets from thin air because they tagged enough places.


remember when Joan intentionally testmerged broken updates to Gang to fuck over Robustin?

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:49 am #475059

iamgoofball wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Remember that split second period in Gangs when people could order literal Admin Only Mechs and spawn turrets from thin air because they tagged enough places.

remember when Joan intentionally testmerged broken updates to Gang to fuck over Robustin?

That, and the fact that Robustin's changes were way too drastic and didn't address the core issues of the mode in the first place. Robustin-Gang would not be what we would re-add, if we were to.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:55 am #475062

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Remember that split second period in Gangs when people could order literal Admin Only Mechs and spawn turrets from thin air because they tagged enough places.

remember when Joan intentionally testmerged broken updates to Gang to fuck over Robustin?

That, and the fact that Robustin's changes were way too drastic and didn't address the core issues of the mode in the first place. Robustin-Gang would not be what we would re-add, if we were to.

a lot of his changes relied on very fine number balance and the testmerges were done knowing full well test or debug values were in sometimes

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby TehSteveo » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:57 am #475063

Robustin gang just made it more like cult with more stuff added to spawn in, but at it's core it's still a TDM. In all honesty I feel the player mentality is at fault. People rather murderbone than recruit people and anytime they get resistance to recruitment they just kill. Additionally, Gang pre-meta, security wouldn't come crashing down because of tags. Security would generally respond once violence and/or theft started occurring. That or they were slipmemed and implant broken which recruited them before the slip wore off.

In a way I feel implant breaks not only removing an implant but recruiting would help encourage gangs to go back to recruiting versus murderboning. I remember early where there was rounds of gang where I was recruited to one gang, then captured by security and loyalty implanted, then captured again to another gang. There were other rounds back then I seen some people flip flopped to different factions multiple times. There was actually a consciousness movement to not kill, but keep people alive as resources.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:01 am #475065

someday i'll bring back Families, the superior gamemode

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:08 am #475066

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:38 am #475085

Fixed your image
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:04 am #475094

but that's not true
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Screemonster » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:09 am #475097

wan't the big issue with gangs the sec mains literally turning what was meant to be a gang vs gang into sec versus everyone else mode and posting their "strats" because god forbid sec aren't the protagonists

I remember one guy literally saying "security are a conversion antag"

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby D&B » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:17 am #475102

Are you going to code and mantain Gang?
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby obscolene » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:44 am #475109

because gang is fucking shit
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:56 am #475121

PKPenguin321 wrote:but that's not true

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby subject217 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:02 am #475139

kierany nerfed le epic airwalk walkies

if a gamemode is being actively developed by someone who isnt insane (r*bustin) or has a ton of content that could be reworked or used for admin memes it's probably not going to get removed

overthrow could feasibly be removed at some point or it could just sit in the code dead like internal affairs agents, monkey, et cetera.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:25 pm #475206

Conversion modes are bad to begin with, then add Robustin and his inability to balance anything at all and you get a horrible shitshow.

I would like to remind people that to try and solve the problem of security cracking down on gangs Robustin testmerged a version of gangs that literally blew up security at roundstart.

Gangs was bad, conversion modes are bad, and Robustin cant into balance.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:10 pm #475227

It's my fault.

Treated it as my personal experimental plaything to try out all sorts of wacky ideas for fun and ended up bloated as hell.

If I were to start over it would be a lot simpler and work with the existing game's dynamics instead of trying to make a game-in-a-game. It wouldn't resemble gang at all, but I think a symmetrical team vs team mode can still work.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby oranges » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:33 pm #475519

Ikarrus wrote:It's my fault.

Treated it as my personal experimental plaything to try out all sorts of wacky ideas for fun and ended up bloated as hell.

If I were to start over it would be a lot simpler and work with the existing game's dynamics instead of trying to make a game-in-a-game. It wouldn't resemble gang at all, but I think a symmetrical team vs team mode can still work.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby imsxz » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:57 pm #475530

convert modes are great imo they're the only reason I bother playing sec.

afaik gang was gutted for the reasons ikarrus said, too bloated to really work with, just start fresh if you really want to see gangs again.

I don't think it's taboo as much as there's straight up nobody willing to code an entire new gamemode and maintain it (can you blame them? there have been zero well received new gamemodes for ages)
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Shezza » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 pm #475553

gangs but the objective is to get as much goofbucks as you can without dying or getting purged by annoyed sec

selling weed, drugs and weapons to the crew illegaly, also printing fake money


wait, thats just darkRP

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:13 am #475617

Shezza wrote:gangs but the objective is to get as much goofbucks as you can without dying or getting purged by annoyed sec

selling weed, drugs and weapons to the crew illegaly, also printing fake money


wait, thats just darkRP


Goofbux gang would be very similar to actual Goongang. Goongang has the bonus of having gang membership being voluntary and gang members themselves having the same protection from sec as non-gang members.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:13 am #475618

Dr_bee wrote:
Goofbux gang would be very similar to actual Goongang. Goongang has the bonus of having gang membership being voluntary and gang members themselves having the same protection from sec as non-gang members.

where do you think i stole the ideas for Families from

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Shezza » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 pm #475691

iamgoofball wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
Goofbux gang would be very similar to actual Goongang. Goongang has the bonus of having gang membership being voluntary and gang members themselves having the same protection from sec as non-gang members.

where do you think i stole the ideas for Families from


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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby zxaber » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:33 am #475901

PKPenguin321 wrote:(although that's only on the forums/discord, a notable amount of people in OOC want gang back)

The same could be said about Clock Cult too, to an extent. Wanting it back isn't as much of a meme as wanting gangs back, but it would be easier to re-enable since most of the content is still in.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:27 am #475939

zxaber wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:(although that's only on the forums/discord, a notable amount of people in OOC want gang back)

The same could be said about Clock Cult too, to an extent. Wanting it back isn't as much of a meme as wanting gangs back, but it would be easier to re-enable since most of the content is still in.


The mode itself is still in the game, just out of rotation. It is literally a config option to bring it back, but no one wants to maintain it.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Jzoid » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:55 am #476028

i miss gangs, i feel it's the general blind hatred for conversion modes that stops people from trying to make the game mode better.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:32 pm #476071

Jzoid wrote:i miss gangs, i feel it's the general blind hatred for conversion modes that stops people from trying to make the game mode better.


Because conversion as a mechanic has a major problem of 1. forcing people to play antag who might not exactly want to play antag and 2. snowballing issues.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:27 pm #476744

Jzoid wrote:i miss gangs, i feel it's the general blind hatred for conversion modes that stops people from trying to make the game mode better.

Gangs would be much more worse than the other conversion antags since people realized the meta of how only one gang will stand a chance while the other gangs are just useless.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Nilons » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:39 pm #476774

gang would be fun if it didnt skew so heavily in the favour of 1 gang every time

if there was a way to make other gangs not get dumpstered by the one with the most powergamers or oldfags it would be more fun
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Eaglendia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:05 am #477337

how can I lobby for the return of gang
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby leibniz » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:18 am #477338

Screemonster wrote:wan't the big issue with gangs the sec mains literally turning what was meant to be a gang vs gang into sec versus everyone else mode and posting their "strats" because god forbid sec aren't the protagonists

I remember one guy literally saying "security are a conversion antag"
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:30 am #477339

Sec was a major issue for the Gang gamemode. It felt the developers thought of sec as a hindrance to the mode ans they would try to sideline them, what with the ability to convert sec to a gang easily.

I recall a saying that the first gang to convert sec was guaranteed to win.

Furthermore, like any conversion gamemode, sec would always go balls to the wall 'gestapo' the moment a gang tag or item was found, in order to survive.

I think in one gang iteration that sec simply never even spawned, which shows how bad things had gotten.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:54 am #477341

Steelpoint wrote:Sec was a major issue for the Gang gamemode. It felt the developers thought of sec as a hindrance to the mode ans they would try to sideline them, what with the ability to convert sec to a gang easily.

I recall a saying that the first gang to convert sec was guaranteed to win.

Furthermore, like any conversion gamemode, sec would always go balls to the wall 'gestapo' the moment a gang tag or item was found, in order to survive.

I think in one gang iteration that sec simply never even spawned, which shows how bad things had gotten.


Its almost like gang as a forceful conversion mode was a bad idea.
Getting conversion antag vs conversion antag would require making a new game. It doesnt fit into SS13.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Kryson » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:26 pm #477383

I would LOVE to see some kind of goofgang / goofbux gang / families in the game. I wish to see a mode based on making money and demanding respect from other gangs and civilians, not a team death match or team murderbone mode.

I would like to see features such as:
Gang names
Gang colours
Voluntary sign ups
a way to easily view how much money the gang has accumulated.
Limited "uplink" equipment such as switchblades and Italian moustaches
Rules to limit murderboning and sec exterminating them without cause

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby bandit » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:00 pm #477389

because of headmin/coder politics that people have confused with gameplay reasons
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Grazyn » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:02 am #477471

The comparison with clockult isn't accurate, clockult survived as long as it did despite the hate because one coder was really committed to not let it die. Gang on the other hand didn't have a guardian angel and when Robustin started working on it the mode had already been disabled for a long time so people were irreversibly jaded towards it. Also as goof said, purposefully testmerging an unfinished bugged version sealed its fate.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby MercuryArrow » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:42 pm #487590

I wasn't around for the advent of gangs as that whole situation happened during one of my breaks from playing, so I've always been somewhat curious as to what it entailed and how exactly it failed. It does seem like it was a so-so mode at best that was merely exacerbated in people's minds by too many mechanical adjustments and awkward balancing issues. I'm not a big fan of conversion game modes in general but it'd still be interesting to see another take on the concept some day.

I do have to agree though that clock cult, especially in its later format, was just far worse as a gamemode than basically anything else. A storm the fortress mode sounds neat on paper but when it's preceded by an hour of tedium while the antagonists can just magically teleport-->stun-->abduct unpredictably across the station with relatively minimal risks, it simply isn't fun or engaging. Abductors suffer from the same issues, except abductors work because,
A) It's mid-round RNG, not a fleshed out rotation roundtype.
B) There's an extremely small number of abductors.
C) It's not conversion-based so much as random, mad-science based, which minimises the overall impact on the round as a whole while still having the potential to shake things up if left unchecked.

My other takeaway from this thread is that I'm the only person who actually genuinely enjoys Assimilation as a mode. I blame my soft spot for psionics, the idea of an antag using a network of people as glorified psychic batteries and as a focal point for powers is honestly great.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:58 pm #487594

Team deathmatch is actually bald and dumb
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby FloranOtten » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:43 pm #487607

I'd love to see a conversion gamemode that wasn't instant TDM. Take cult, for example. There are two possible interactions with a cult; conversion or death for one of you. This is less 'paranoia' and more 'powergame as hard as you can to try and kill the others as best you can'. In cult especially, it just turns into 'find and kill the cultists', because there is no hideout to find and assault. As soon as one of the dozen hideouts is found, sec kills everyone there, those who survive teleport off, they space the cult loot and they look for the next cult base. I'd like a conversion antag that has to work with sec, or with another antag instead of just murdering everything in your path. I would love gangs to be added in a form that isn't focused around murdering sec and anyone else that isn't them.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:47 pm #487621

the best gang rounds were political

both gangs would dress up and openly support their gangs and take territory to build clubhouses, with security as an intermediary to prevent outright riots in the hallways. kills happened in secret because the gang that went too far would eat the full force of security and the other gang would get an advantage.

I wish there was a way to make it happen like this but the gamemode always evolved out of it. I think the only way for this mode to work is treat security as a third faction who can only reach the best win by reducing bloodshed. a gang and sec can win, a gang can win with sec's favour or by managing to swing a total sudden kill on security. It should be a three way system where there is a big advantage to keeping sec on side but it's possible to wipe them if the other gang can't take advantage.

I wish this was achievable regularly tho
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:15 pm #487629

if the TDM was contained to the gangs it'd be better but it instantly devolves into "kill everyone not in your gang" for the gangs and "kill everyone who isn't loyalty implanted" for the sec.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:27 pm #487631

this is why I made family membership dynamic, volunteered, and optional in Families.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:10 pm #487637

Super Aggro Crag wrote:if the TDM was contained to the gangs it'd be better but it instantly devolves into "kill everyone not in your gang" for the gangs and "kill everyone who isn't loyalty implanted" for the sec.

That's a product of Rule 4 antag status.

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby oranges » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 pm #487638

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby callanrockslol » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:51 pm #487777

I loved gang but it suffered from all the conversion mode problems.

You end up with a mode with the disorganization of Revolution mixed with the team coordination of Cult. Which was kinda fun except for the territory mechanic that only two people in your gang would use while the rest would go back to their jobs or just fuck off.

And it took too long to end. This was always its biggest problem.

Once you and two robust shitheads take down the HoP/HoS/Captain and get them on your side its over, sec drops like flies unless they're highly competent and then most of the crew ends up in your gang but refuses to actually progress the round, so you end up with 20 minutes of doomsday timer and the few remaining enemy gang members trying to suicide bomb you and break you're shit, dragging the round out where they can't even win.

Stickymayhem wrote:cool shit


That would be awesome but you'd need to force sec to play their role in the gang war, which would be an amazing feat of administration or code. Or we'd need a High RP server.
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:32 pm #487878

daily reminder Families fixed every problem laid out in this thread

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:02 pm #487884

"fixed"
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby iamgoofball » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:44 am #487906

Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"

did you play it?

it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself

overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was

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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:20 am #487921

iamgoofball wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"

did you play it?

it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself

overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was

"playing"
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