Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:16 pm
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Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:51 pm
I loved gang but it suffered from all the conversion mode problems.
You end up with a mode with the disorganization of Revolution mixed with the team coordination of Cult. Which was kinda fun except for the territory mechanic that only two people in your gang would use while the rest would go back to their jobs or just fuck off.
And it took too long to end. This was always its biggest problem.
Once you and two robust shitheads take down the HoP/HoS/Captain and get them on your side its over, sec drops like flies unless they're highly competent and then most of the crew ends up in your gang but refuses to actually progress the round, so you end up with 20 minutes of doomsday timer and the few remaining enemy gang members trying to suicide bomb you and break you're shit, dragging the round out where they can't even win.
You end up with a mode with the disorganization of Revolution mixed with the team coordination of Cult. Which was kinda fun except for the territory mechanic that only two people in your gang would use while the rest would go back to their jobs or just fuck off.
And it took too long to end. This was always its biggest problem.
Once you and two robust shitheads take down the HoP/HoS/Captain and get them on your side its over, sec drops like flies unless they're highly competent and then most of the crew ends up in your gang but refuses to actually progress the round, so you end up with 20 minutes of doomsday timer and the few remaining enemy gang members trying to suicide bomb you and break you're shit, dragging the round out where they can't even win.
That would be awesome but you'd need to force sec to play their role in the gang war, which would be an amazing feat of administration or code. Or we'd need a High RP server.Stickymayhem wrote:cool shit
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:32 pm
daily reminder Families fixed every problem laid out in this thread
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:02 pm
"fixed"
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:44 am
did you play it?Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"
it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself
overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:20 am
"playing"iamgoofball wrote:did you play it?Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"
it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself
overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:40 am
i did play it and frankly while the concept is nice the voluntary conversion bit was kind of a mess ("FREE ANTAG??? SIGN ME UP!" --everyone) and not very conducive to good gameplayiamgoofball wrote:did you play it?Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"
it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself
overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was
wish that part was different
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:45 am
I don't think its Gang so much in of itself but rather there is a general unease at the concept of 'more TDM' modes.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:46 am
voluntary conversion is the only way to have a team based gamemode that doesn't start with everyone already assigned a team.PKPenguin321 wrote:i did play it and frankly while the concept is nice the voluntary conversion bit was kind of a mess ("FREE ANTAG??? SIGN ME UP!" --everyone) and not very conducive to good gameplayiamgoofball wrote:did you play it?Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"
it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself
overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was
wish that part was different
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:22 am
Voluntary conversion still has the win-more mechanic of snowball conversion as there is really no reason to join a weaker team. consider a way to incentivize joining the smaller gangs over everyone joining one.iamgoofball wrote:voluntary conversion is the only way to have a team based gamemode that doesn't start with everyone already assigned a team.PKPenguin321 wrote:i did play it and frankly while the concept is nice the voluntary conversion bit was kind of a mess ("FREE ANTAG??? SIGN ME UP!" --everyone) and not very conducive to good gameplayiamgoofball wrote:did you play it?Super Aggro Crag wrote:"fixed"
it fixed:
1. the core issue with conversion modes, force conversion, by replacing it with volunteered signups for families
2. mass murdering everyone not associated with you because dead people can't rep your family's colors and alive people can join your family, and people won't want to join your family if your family is mass murdering people
3. tagging turf being useless since the winning family is decided by points gained overall and tagging turf is a serious benefit points wise, along with tagging another family's turf as to encourage breaking stalemates and starting turf wars
4. security just killing everyone that isn't security because implants don't matter due to signing up for a family being voluntary and not forced
5. rounds lasting way too fucking long, because the gamemode was locked to 30-45 minutes max via the gamemode itself
overall, it was a far better gamemode than Gang ever was
wish that part was different
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:47 am
Gangs was bad because it tries to do what cult did except it replaces everything with "guns". Guns make for shitty balance and security hates it when anyone else has guns because most of the edge of being security is having access to that.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:45 am
can't believe I'm agreeing with primo shithead yakumoYakumo_Chen wrote:Gangs was bad because it tries to do what cult did except it replaces everything with "guns". Guns make for shitty balance and security hates it when anyone else has guns because most of the edge of being security is having access to that.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
except not really because forced conversion is dumb as shit
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:00 pm
So is voluntary conversion. Who would ever turn down being an antag?iamgoofball wrote:can't believe I'm agreeing with primo shithead yakumoYakumo_Chen wrote:Gangs was bad because it tries to do what cult did except it replaces everything with "guns". Guns make for shitty balance and security hates it when anyone else has guns because most of the edge of being security is having access to that.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
except not really because forced conversion is dumb as shit
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:14 pm
NoxVS wrote:So is voluntary conversion. Who would ever turn down being an antag?iamgoofball wrote:can't believe I'm agreeing with primo shithead yakumoYakumo_Chen wrote:Gangs was bad because it tries to do what cult did except it replaces everything with "guns". Guns make for shitty balance and security hates it when anyone else has guns because most of the edge of being security is having access to that.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
except not really because forced conversion is dumb as shit
Does Devil count as precedent?
But in that situation, even people don't take it because dying becomes perma-death. And what the devil can offer is very limited.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:14 pm
Same shit all the time so I walk out an airlock during rev and such. 'Antag' is meaningless other than the toys you get during it.NoxVS wrote: So is voluntary conversion. Who would ever turn down being an antag?
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:15 pm
What planet do you live on? EVERYBODY takes devil deals whenever devil is ranShadowflame909 wrote:NoxVS wrote:So is voluntary conversion. Who would ever turn down being an antag?iamgoofball wrote:can't believe I'm agreeing with primo shithead yakumoYakumo_Chen wrote:Gangs was bad because it tries to do what cult did except it replaces everything with "guns". Guns make for shitty balance and security hates it when anyone else has guns because most of the edge of being security is having access to that.
Gang shouldn't be readded because like every other conversion game mode, it's just a worse version of revolution, which is the most pure form of conversion game modes. Conversion doesn't need a gimmick, when conversion itself is the gimmick.
except not really because forced conversion is dumb as shit
Does Devil count as precedent?
But in that situation, even people don't take it because dying becomes perma-death. And what the devil can offer is very limited.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:22 am
I wish what you said was right my last devil round.
The Curator actually researched my Bane, brought me to the chapel and forced me into a duel with them. Whilst getting sec to murder me so I wouldn't revive.
The idiot security took me out of the chapel, which allowed me to revive.
The only people who actually took the contract that round, was cargo because they could make infinite money and the HoS. Because they got killed by a ling.
The Curator actually researched my Bane, brought me to the chapel and forced me into a duel with them. Whilst getting sec to murder me so I wouldn't revive.
The idiot security took me out of the chapel, which allowed me to revive.
The only people who actually took the contract that round, was cargo because they could make infinite money and the HoS. Because they got killed by a ling.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:37 am
Working as intendedShadowflame909 wrote:I wish what you said was right my last devil round.
The Curator actually researched my Bane, brought me to the chapel and forced me into a duel with them. Whilst getting sec to murder me so I wouldn't revive.
The idiot security took me out of the chapel, which allowed me to revive.
The only people who actually took the contract that round, was cargo because they could make infinite money and the HoS. Because they got killed by a ling.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:48 pm
Gangs is a mode that can produce incredible rounds but is bogged down by player incompetence. Unless you can skill match the three bosses (antag elo lol), it's a miracle when a gang round doesn't end one of two ways:
1) One boss recruits the right people and it becomes revs but with the dominator.
2) All the gangs are mentally handicapped and get smacked by security immediately.
Doesn't help that every PR pushed seemed to actively make the mode worse, either by overbuffing the gangs to a ridiculous point or reducing any motive to not go lone wolf gung-ho immediately.
1) One boss recruits the right people and it becomes revs but with the dominator.
2) All the gangs are mentally handicapped and get smacked by security immediately.
Doesn't help that every PR pushed seemed to actively make the mode worse, either by overbuffing the gangs to a ridiculous point or reducing any motive to not go lone wolf gung-ho immediately.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:45 am
That was pretty passive-aggressive and mean.remember when Joan intentionally testmerged broken updates to Gang to fuck over Robustin?
Also, I think that one of improvements that can be definitely made to gang is removing implant breakers. It helps with snowballing greatly, especially if you convert sec.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:13 pm
worst case scenario for gang:
all but one gang dies, becomes fairly similar to rev, but with fewer and more well armed revs, similarly to cult but with far simpler mechanics
what was wrong with that again?
all but one gang dies, becomes fairly similar to rev, but with fewer and more well armed revs, similarly to cult but with far simpler mechanics
what was wrong with that again?
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:38 pm
Ways of bypassing implants are lame. Why have a defense that can be easily broken or doesnt work at all *cough*bloodcult*cough*.InsaneHyena wrote:That was pretty passive-aggressive and mean.remember when Joan intentionally testmerged broken updates to Gang to fuck over Robustin?
Also, I think that one of improvements that can be definitely made to gang is removing implant breakers. It helps with snowballing greatly, especially if you convert sec.
There already exists a way to remove implants anyway, its called kidnapping and surgically removing the implant, or killing the person and then converting the fresh clone.
Conversion antags should really do what revs does right now when it comes to implants, and that is fight to control cargo to prevent the implants from coming in the first place.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:18 am
Sometimes I want to code gang again
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:13 pm
There's a huge gap between 10 assistants armed with spears, soap, and stun prods, and 8 assistants with Uzis, sketchkins, and a portable turret, and one of them is the Head of Personnel.confused rock wrote:worst case scenario for gang:
all but one gang dies, becomes fairly similar to rev, but with fewer and more well armed revs, similarly to cult but with far simpler mechanics
what was wrong with that again?
Most shifts don't see more than 5 security, if you're lucky, in comparison.
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:25 am
please dont cite robustin-gang mechanics like turrets that were in for 1/100th of the mode's lifespan and wouldn't be readded. it's just dishonestYakumo_Chen wrote:There's a huge gap between 10 assistants armed with spears, soap, and stun prods, and 8 assistants with Uzis, sketchkins, and a portable turret, and one of them is the Head of Personnel.confused rock wrote:worst case scenario for gang:
all but one gang dies, becomes fairly similar to rev, but with fewer and more well armed revs, similarly to cult but with far simpler mechanics
what was wrong with that again?
Re: why is readding Gang so taboo?
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:41 am
ah yes, and do the classic kevin method of over-designing it and making it by default the same mode it was before? Fuck off. Families was the only good gang-styled gamemode there ever was and ever will be.kevinz000 wrote:Sometimes I want to code gang again