Poll to revert the medical changes.

[Calibraptor]

Feedback for these changes has been overwhelmingly negative yet the maintainers seem to be merging stuff without giving a single shit what the players think.

Here's a poll to revert them that'll inevitably get ignored, but you know, might as well scream in defiance as the coderbus careens into the ravine.

[wet socks]

make bad change go away

[Tiviplus]

RIP med, plis fix

[wesoda25]

I think we need to hold off for a while. Cobby is essentially reworking the system and it’ll take a lot of changes and adjustments. Its not fun for players so I guess the most we can ask for is some fast follow up PRs.

[Skillywatt]

It's not terrible if you have competent, dedicated chemists.



Hahahahabahahaha

[Calibraptor]

It's not terrible if you have competent, dedicated chemists.

hhahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[confused rock]

This poll wont work

[cacogen]

no opinion on the medical changes but the reaction to stun glove removal was overwhelmingly negative and it was a serious improvement to the game
coding isn't design by committee and the majority opinion isn't always what's best for the game

again no opinion on these changes specifically

[oranges]

make bad change go away

[Shadowflame909]

We dont have a masochist fetish

[Shikarego]

make bad change go away

Agreed! Make the bad change go away! Changes that are bad should be undone so that the game can be enjoyable for the players!

[Whoneedspacee]

just buy medipens

[Arathian]

just buy medipens

Shut up. You will give the secret away and they will remove those too.

[gum disease]

[may cause side effects]

[confused rock]

Just gonna say cacogen’s a dumbfuck for mentioning stungloves, that is all. “Thing people disliked was good, this is also thing people dislike????” Is autismal.

[Reeeee]

"lets make coders do stuff they don't want for free and then whine and bitch when they don't and then possibly have autistic idiots vote on what's to be coded and not and then act surprised when coding stops entirely and blame that on coders too"

Let's just make coders test their stuff in a closed environment instead of hot merging killchems, okay?
Seems far more reasonable.

what an hot mess of PRs and i'm not opposed to chance, i'm opposed to people going autistic and testing shit on live servers to the point that medical is now dark ages and chaplain who done did a religion for tax evasion purposes is better healer than trained medical staff.
If you want it to happen, please actually work on it actively and with intent to finish it fast and don't just leave it unfinished for weeks.

As it is, it's just people avoiding and unable to do medical entirely since it WILL fuck you up worse than just living with it and normal humen beans being unable to deal with "Libtard" chems that were named by random letter generator and cause doctors who don't play this game for living to OD patients for no raisins.

orangeman unsurprisingly un-bad, hot mess of chems very bad, i vote no.
I vote for cat-of-ninetails and successively increasing number of lashes each day that passes without PR instead.

Maybe someone could actually label these chems to be rational tho? I see no reason why they should have names from a badly localized chinese mobile game done by one dood who lived in a basement with no contact from outside world. That's my main problem with it, you have no clue as casual (or even an invested) player what you are being injected or treated with unless you spend time to memorize drugs that you don't need anywhere else.

Would it really be so bad if painkillers were named PainKill, brute healing would be BruteAway, Toxins be AntiTox and burn heal be CoolAid?
That's like the biggest issue chems have, absolutely for no reason autistic names that are mystical and terrifyingly named in spaceman game where goal is to make people not be horizontal in the year 2500. (in this case.)

[Kraso]

no opinion on the medical changes but the reaction to stun glove removal was overwhelmingly negative and it was a serious improvement to the game
coding isn't design by committee and the majority opinion isn't always what's best for the game

again no opinion on these changes specifically

you must have rocks in your head if you thought the stunglove removal was "overwhelmingly" negative from anyone but powergamers

likewise you must have rocks in your head if you think "change people say bad mean change good"
so far many of these chems have been proven to cause more harm than they heal at times and a few of them can be used in deathmix recipes to make the stacked chems even more deadly, this is why we put PRs into the testmerge program

[Dr_bee]

Some of the Cat2 medicines need to be tweaked. For example the brute healer that makes bleeding worse is literally the worst idea for a brute medicine in existance. You dont give fucking blood thinners to a person who is actively bleeding out. But leveraging organ damage as the tradeoff for healing is a neat idea, considering organ damage auto-heals slowly.

Now bruise packs and ointment needs to be removed so free self healing goes away.

[gum disease]

I don't like the names. I understand that the suffix of each medicine name indicates what the chemical does, but they don't read well.
Any major overhaul is going to have teething problems, but these chemical ones have been having teething problems for weeks and the feedback has consistently reflected that. I'm not going to touch on the lizardchem debacle, but the piecemeal implementation of this change to sudden, full-blown implementation (fully merged with no warning/testmerge) is my biggest bête noire.

I'm also trying to understand why you would give anti-coagulants to someone who is already bleeding out. If you have to take them, you are actively advised to not engage in activities that will potentially cause you injury because of the increased risk of bleeding. Like I know this is a game, but this change doesn't make any sense to me from a medical POV, nor does it add more depth to the game.

If the crappy chems (where there are side-effects for using them) are meant to be an expedient but risky alternative - they need to be stupidly easy to make, not multiple-step. Right now I do not see why you would ever make Libital over Trophazole. They both take the same number of steps to make and the mixing difficulty is the same.

[Shadowflame909]

Poison lite was never a viable route.

You can always go to botany and >eat some healing plants >become a pod person who heals from the light
Go to mining and >Become a shadow person who heals from the dark. become any other regenerative race like ayy golem, cloth golem, get pod person'd there. Or find a cursed heart/healing stand. Legion cores. Medi-pens. 10 other things im not thinking about right now.

Robotics? >Augments to heal with welders + some space proofing.
Xenobio? > Slime person/a bunch of other regenerative extracts in this game.

More coming soon as I think of it

[actioninja]

but the piecemeal implementation of this change to sudden, full-blown implementation (fully merged with no warning/testmerge) is my biggest bête noire.

I'll accept the blame for this part, it was a fuckup on my part. I was under the impression that it had been testmerged for a couple of days but I didn't actually confirm this. Turns out it hadn't been testmerged anywhere at all and I completely shit the bed.

[TrumpetPlaya]

what else is there to do though? it's basically done and every chem is replaced with the nasty ones
are there giant surgery PR's on the way or what

[deedubya]

I don't even care that much that medical is getting reworked, because it has been overdue for quite a while. Getting shoved into a sleeper, being pumped with 10 of everything and getting shuffled out the door was peak levels of non-interactivity.

However, I'll reiterate something I posted in the cobbchems thread itself(and got threatened with post approval for daring to levy common sense in a code feedback thread): Why was the fully functional(even if unideal) medicine system we had before gutted, replaced with a shitty placeholder, then replaced with an unfinished system? I don't have an issue with the concept of a rework that brings more depth to the department. What I have an issue with is being the guinea pig for it all. We have shitter servers like bagil and eventhall to test this on with testmerges, rather than full merges. But both times it was fully merged to all servers simultaneously. What the hell? Testmerge it, gather feedback, figure out what might need tweaking, then unmerge it while you work on tweaking the first portion of it and writing up the complete version. Repeat for every part of the process until you have a fully functioning rework that people can judge at it's full value. As it stands, people hate lizardchems and cobbchems not just because of a kneejerk reaction of "wah my job is too difficult" and "wah i stay horizontal longer", but because you merged placeholders and unfinished revisions to replace a fully functional system that people were satisfied with.

[skoglol]

How about instead of a revert we just fix what is wrong with it and move on with our lives?

[cacogen]

I made sure to say twice I didn't have an opinion on these changes because I haven't played them yet and they still didn't get it. Popularity is a dumb way to decide on code changes and getting hostile over changes just alienates the people involved. Stun gloves only stayed in as long as they did because the coders knew what a shitstorm removing them would cause. Cheridan got a lot of shit for replacing them with stun prods. A forum poll will achieve nothing, nor should it. Actual playtesting and specific feedback is what causes changes. And if the feedback I've read so far is to be trusted then this is an incredibly garbage change.

I have never thought medbay should be more complex or more like Bay. I don't think it suits our play style or round length and I think it's a finicky pain in the ass. Most of the time I go to medbay wounded there are no doctors around and I'm forced to treat myself with the shit in the foyer or by breaking into medical storage. It's been this way for years. Why make this worse by removing sleepers and over complicating healing chemicals? Why add an overreliance on cryo, something which sucks for the person inside, and make it so someone who is probably absent has to turn it on for you or else you're trapped? Why make cloning take an incredibly long time as an (intentional?) side-effect of razharas' deconstructible machines pull to the point paprika eventually introduced defibrillators as a stopgap?

I'd have to play this to see what it's really like. Cobby has been around forever and is a smart, helpful and well-intentioned person. If this is shit now like Goofchem was for months after his first botched implementation and then lack of willingness to fix the problems it doesn't mean it can't be ironed out into the standard the way Goofchem was.

[Kraso]

How about instead of a revert we just fix what is wrong with it and move on with our lives?

that would be nice but how do you fix "intermediary" chemicals that are supposed to have bad effects but only heal a little better than ghetto?

[Kryson]

what else is there to do though? it's basically done and every chem is replaced with the nasty ones
are there giant surgery PR's on the way or what

It is not done, Cobby has not yet removed salicylic, oxalandrone, salbutamol, atropine, regen jelly, pent acid, rhigoxane, survival medipens as well as brute packs and ointment.

[TrumpetPlaya]

rip regen jelly bees

[Stillplant]

On cobby's chemicals, I think he overdid it with the side effects. Especially for the lower tier medicines. Curing 50 units of poison damage will destroy your lungs permanently. That's a bit over the top.

On surgery changes, I wrote up a proposal for a surgery overhaul, and so far nobody has replied. This kinda leaves me confused on whether it's worth it to try and implement what I wrote up, or if it would just be summarily rejected.

[oranges]

I have been busy with work and the elections so I haven't really had a chance to read many of the forums.

Not many people replying is the default state of the ideas subforum unfortunately

From a brief look at your thread, it looks fine and would be welcome as a code change.

My only concern would be to be sure that simple surgeries like tend wounds and reconstitute flesh were not made too difficult to carry out as they should be used for healing most serious burn/brute injuries

as for the side effects I covered it in more detail here
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 00#p511038

but the PR was merged without much chance of gameplay testing because a maintainer made a mistake.

[confused rock]

the thing I found extremely insulting about that was " and perhaps we have to accept that the tg playerbase cannot, or is not capable of, a more difficult/involved medical system.
"
oranges, maybe, maybe cobby has fucking failed, and maybe the system created is not engaging enough. maybe tg can handle a more difficult/involved med system, but cobby's system isn't it.

[oranges]

given what I've seen so far, it's not engaging because none of you have EVEN TRIED to engage with it on good faith

[NoxVS]

given what I've seen so far, it's not engaging because none of you have EVEN TRIED to engage with it on good faith

What gives you the idea no one has tried to engage with it? We tried it, saw it was shit, and fucked off and found better alternatives to pretty much all of them. Most provide hindrances no one wants to play with, are needlessly complicated (Remember when all chemical ODs were easy to remember because they were all pretty much 30? Now they vary for no reason with two chemical ODs being 11 and 6 which absolutely no one will be able to remember), are outclassed by pretty much everything (Medibot for brute/burn, if the shitty synthflesh replacement is required just clone them, give a 10u fiziver patch to cure toxin (or just wait for them to die and then clone them) and hope they dont complain too much, just fix the problem causing oxy damage and if necessary give them tirimol and hope they dont complain too much about having to sit through knock off cryo. And while I get this is less important, all the names fucking suck. Its pretty difficult to memorize all these when Cobby has some obsession with putting as many i's or u's in every name possible. Kelo, bicard, antitoxin, tricord, all easy to remember, easy to distinguish, even explained what they did in a couple of cases. Meanwhile I don't think I can find many people who would be capable of telling me the difference between multiver, fiziver, and syrinver without looking it up on the wiki.

Gaia has seen an increase in popularity because people would rather risk brain damage or drugs than have to deal with the death mixes that are cobby chems. The point of medicine is to HEAL you, and if taking medicine won't do that then no one will bother.

But you are right, I have no clue how these chemicals actually work, after all how can someone who doesn't play the game and engage in these chemicals know anything about them?

[Davidchan]

Imagine if security equipment made suspects/antagonists harder to capture/kill before eventually causing them to flop over.

[terranaut]

Meanwhile I don't think I can find many people who would be capable of telling me the difference between multiver, fiziver, and syrinver without looking it up on the wiki.

I know syrinver is for toxin because thats he only nuchem I use since for the rest I use ointment and brute packs

but yeah your entire post is true, there is no reason to engage the chems because they are subpar in literally every regard and offer nothing positive

[Arathian]

Players will always, always ALWAYS take the optimal path. People might wanna roleplay docs, but if the optimum path is munching on gaia, then that is what people will do.

There are plenty of paths with less resistance than the cobbychems so of course people will not use them. They are inferior to currently existing options, such as:

Ointments and brute patches - Gaia - Medipens - Medibots - Toolbox and clone (unironically have requested that one) - cryo - eating a fucking burger - probably even surgery if all other options get removed/nerfed to death.

So what exactly is the draw if using chems? Chems were always the more advanced, but limited (and needing manifacturing) option that was fast and better.

Right now chems are the more advanced, needing manufacturing option, that is slower, has more risks and might leave you permanently impared than other options. It's the reverse of what it should be.

So why would people use them?

[oranges]

by teh exact same argument you can say the medbay changes literally have zero effect and there's no point complaining about them.

it's a useless non argument.

We will iron out all these issues one by one

[Arathian]

Okey. Yes. But the chems still need a niche over the other options.

If you remove all options I mentioned above, surgery itself is still faster (and safer) than the new meds.

As I currently see them, these chems are literally the last option. After surgery. After literally being toolboxed to death and then cloned.

The problem isn't that the playerbase is too dumb to use them. It's that they make (semi-conscious) decisions that other options are either more efficient, faster or less involved than the new chems. In each situation, other solutions win against them.

[oranges]

>still need a niche above other options
why? Why should a different job have an edge over medbay doctors?

>The problem isn't that the playerbase is too dumb to use them. It's that they make (semi-conscious) decisions that other options are either more efficient, faster or less involved than the new chems. In each situation, other solutions win against them.

This is literally the goal

[MGP]

Most of the players are incredibly stupid, uncreative, soulless, and not notable in any way. They are essentially NPCs. Why should anyone care what the "players" think about anything? This fixation on democracy is one of the most cancerous aspects of /tg/station. Just make oranges the dictator of this place already. At the very least, it will be consistent. Not the mess it is right now.

[Sandshark808]

IMO the problem is that the entire medical system is based on a flawed attempt to correct a system that was already flawed. In my ideal medbay, treating wounds would have several different outcomes based on the level of severity and curing people of difficult injuries would require medic engagement but NOT the unmitigated support of other departments.

The first class of treatments would be for minor injuries. There should be a simple, side-effect-free method of curing them, for example first-aid ointment for brute, burn cream for burn, and charcoal for toxins. These chems would heal slowly but not cause any trouble and could be made quickly and distributed widely by chemists for basic use at roundstart. Moderate injuries could be cured by those too, but you would be hurting for a while before you're up to 100%. Think Milk or Bilk. A slow drip-feed of healing over a moderate time.

The second class of treatments would be from other departments. These are your Omnizine equivalents, coming from ambrosia, white weed, special mixed drinks, and whatever. Medics generally won't have these unless people make them specifically for them. They can have side effects but they're interesting rather than deadly, like how Earthsblood causes brain hurty and makes you trip balls.

The third class of treatments would be for major injuries when medbay isn't being supported by the station. There would be a separate class of chemicals and treatments depending on the injury. Major brute would require surgery to fix quickly. No brute medicines for curing it instantly anymore, just surgery. For burns you'd need to go into cryo, or get a "skin graft" surgery that would cause brute damage to heal 2x that amount of burn. For toxin I think the whole system should be revamped so that most toxins do organ damage instead of just a "toxin class" of damage. That way organ replacement surgeries actually matter, and the organ growing board has a purpose aside from giving me forty livers to drink myself to death.

The fourth class of treatments would be for major injuries but in times where other departments are helping out 100%. Think of these as special medicines for use during blob, nukie, or other team deathmatch rounds where everyone is laser-focused on keeping the crew alive and killing an enemy. They would be combinations of chemicals from chemistry with a single reagent found in a specific department. Not only would they heal moderate to serious wounds, but they would have both a minor side-effect and a major benefit. For example, a solution of [Minor Healing Chemical] and Earthsblood could make Hyperbolic Steroids, a brute healing medicine that needs to be injected. It might have a low OD threshold and would cause minor traumas, but you would gain brute-resistance beyond the OD threshold or some other benefit for using it in an unsafe manner. Ideally there would be two of these for every damage type, one that had healing + a side effect + an interesting benefit, and one that just had straight healing with no side effect or benefit, and each class of chems would have their missing ingredient made by a different department. You'd have to decide if you wanted to take the risk and become a powerhouse or just settle for healing.

This is all somewhat general, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at. The point shouldn't be punishing medbay users and players but offering variety in treatments that can be used in different round-states and which occupy different niches.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Just die and get cloned

[ThanatosRa]

Keep them because spite.

[Shadowflame909]

The players are dealing with it maintainers, but this currently isn't one of those situations where they're begrudgingly accepting it like everything else because no one wants to use them. the alternatives are too convincing

robotics-bay/botany-bay is much better then medbay.

Give me those roundstart augments baby or pod-personing so I can heal slowly from the light.

A player must do what he must to avoid dealing with downtime on this rapid-fire game

[TheMythicGhost]

If we're heading back into the dark ages with this kind of medicine, we need surgeries and practices to match.
Like:

Bloodletting
Trepanation
Using Mercury to combat diseases
Carrying human skulls to ward off Revenants and their affiliated diseases.

[oranges]

you should flesh out the mechanics a bit more, but some good ideas so far.

[TheMythicGhost]

you should flesh out the mechanics a bit more, but some good ideas so far.

Oh right:

Herbal Tea Therapy,
Acupuncture,
Applying Annointed Oil to a person's forehead in the shape of a cross to exorcise demons that cause sickness.

[oranges]

I don't think you understand the concept of fleshing out a mechanic

[Shadowflame909]

re-add miasma and allow people to stuff masks with poppies so they don't die from the black plague the rats in maint cause

[TheMythicGhost]

That margin is fairly insane, but of course it's just people hating it for no reason.