what happened to tg administration over the years?

[deedubya]

So a friend of mine was digging for documentation for admin tools, and came across this with their google-fu. It appears to be a 5 year old guide for the admins of this very server.

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-ctmgtzC ... 1_djvu.txt

If this is indeed accurate, then why is it not followed any more? Seriously, if all the admins acted like they're apparently supposed to according to this list of guidelines, I'd never have to make any complaints or appeals ever.

quick speedround of shit that admins apparently don't have to listen to anymore, based on personal experience:

Spoiler:

• Please maintain a professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is
expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk
casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other
Space Station 13 communities. While being banned on another server while you are
an admin, doesn't necessarily mean punitive action here, it is expected that you don't
go out of your way to grief/raid other servers either.

• Be polite, but casual, in adminhelps. You don't want to be unapproachable, you don't want
to be an asshole. You're there to make sure things run smoothly and as many people as
possible have fun. If you expect the players to treat you with respect, treat them with
respect as well.

• Bans are either to teach a lesson, punish malicious behavior, or remove shitty players from
the community. Banning for mistakes doesn't really serve any of these purposes (an honest
mistake can be explained and in the future avoided without having the players experience
ruined with a ban). Of course a jobban might be warranted if a mistake is repeated multiple
times.

• Always try to consider what you'd have done in the players place. They don't have the
luxury of piecing it together from attack logs, infinite time to make a decision, knowing
every antag, etc. They'll act on incomplete information, they'll act on emotion. Don't judge
them vs. perfect actions, but based on reasonable ones in their place.

• Don't ban when you don't have to. Let people off with a warning if applicable.

Finally, the most important point...why aren't the rules and guidelines for administrators a matter of public knowledge? At the moment, the admin complaints forum is just a farce, because we the community do not know what standards the admins are supposed to be held to. Likewise, because we don't know those standards, it's never a topic that comes up during the headmin elections, despite it possibly being one of the most important issues a headmin could be expected to tackle.

[Plapatin]

admin rules aren't private you dunce
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

[bandit]

imagine if we banned everyone we warned

[deedubya]

admin rules aren't private you dunce
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

you right, my bad

But assuming the shit I was linked is accurate(most of it translates into the modern version, so safe assumption) the only things that have really changed over the last 5 years is that IRC is no longer a requirement, and the banbot prevention rules got the axe. What the hell happened in those 5 years to make warning people and not immediately banning them for honest fuck-ups such a bad thing?

[HommandoSA]

People get off with warnings all of the time.

[wubli]

People get off with warnings all of the time.

do you want to rephrase that

[HommandoSA]

No

[Lazengann]

There is nothing, not even God, that would stop you from making complaints and appeals
You and I were both hit in the head as children and have gained a deranged compulsion to rant and rave about dumb bullshit all the time

[bandit]

People get off on warnings all of the time.

fixed

[Arianya]

Finally, the most important point...why aren't the rules and guidelines for administrators a matter of public knowledge? At the moment, the admin complaints forum is just a farce, because we the community do not know what standards the admins are supposed to be held to. Likewise, because we don't know those standards, it's never a topic that comes up during the headmin elections, despite it possibly being one of the most important issues a headmin could be expected to tackle.

In addition to what plap provided:



Literally in the subforum you call a farce

There's half baked threads and then there's threads that never even saw an oven before being posted.

[PKPenguin321]

lol, I disapproved this for Policy Discussion due to the inflammatory wording and invited him to post it again as an actual discussion and instead he just put it on general chat, what a legend

[legality]

oh boy oh boy, you should've seen our (top secret, never publicly published) manual in 2011 written by [edit: someone who's name i can't remember]. it started with "Rule 0. If it's funny, it's okay."

[Shaps-cloud]

the admin team today is actually way better than the crew from pre 2015/2016, I remember there used to be rampant cheating and outright admin abuse and people just went along with it. anyone remember that whole fight over whether admin logs should be made public, and within 15 minutes of them eventually being released, someone found logs of scones checking antags as HoS? I can think of over half a dozen admins including several head admins who regularly cheated back then, oversight is miles miles better today thank god

[oranges]

yeah but 2011 was lit, even though I eventually promoted public logs

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Who was that one dork who tried to bomb a blob as RD then when his lame bomb failed adminghosted and spammed the drop bomb button on it to destroy it

[deedubya]

lol, I disapproved this for Policy Discussion due to the inflammatory wording and invited him to post it again as an actual discussion and instead he just put it on general chat, what a legend

I never got a message regarding that, I assumed some tight fisted jannie closed it because the doc was actually legit and I was leaking super secret docs or some shit like that. Hence why I wound up clarifying "found this shit on google" in my OP here.

yeah but 2011 was lit, even though I eventually promoted public logs

Public logs were one of the best changes this server has ever had. The more transparent and accountable the admin process is, the better.

[Arianya]

Re: what happened to deedubya's posting over the months?

[Vekter]

Remember when people actually put effort into trolling the admins?

[FloranOtten]

Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"

If you end up putting this quote in your signature, it might be time to reconsider if what you're saying is the truth.

[Jack7D1]

Florb

[IkeTG]

What the hell happened in those 5 years to make warning people and not immediately banning them for honest fuck-ups such a bad thing?

You harp about admin transparency, but letting people off with a warning is less transparent than the appeals system. The fact that you think admins don't give out warnings before banning people anymore p. much shows this...

[deedubya]

What the hell happened in those 5 years to make warning people and not immediately banning them for honest fuck-ups such a bad thing?

You harp about admin transparency, but letting people off with a warning is less transparent than the appeals system. The fact that you think admins don't give out warnings before banning people anymore p. much shows this...

They don't. Or at the very least, they don't have to, and choose not to.

source: dude trust me

The only times I ever remember being warned were a couple times a year or so ago. Every other time(not many, but still) it's just been straight to the banhammer. Admins aren't required to warn people or judge intent - hell, just look at the load of (somewhat deserved)manuel bans getting handed out lately. I'm certain a good number of those could have been handled by "hey please review the MRP rules and don't do that again, next time it's a ban" considering how new it is. But it seems flexing and quota filling is a higher priority as of late for certain admins. Admins that wouldn't still be on the team if the old guidelines were still in effect. Admins that wouldn't drag down the good admins(which are the majority) with their poor conduct.

[IkeTG]

They don't. Or at the very least, they don't have to, and choose not to.

People get off with warnings all of the time.

Who's word should I take?

[Lazengann]

What the hell happened in those 5 years to make warning people and not immediately banning them for honest fuck-ups such a bad thing?

You harp about admin transparency, but letting people off with a warning is less transparent than the appeals system. The fact that you think admins don't give out warnings before banning people anymore p. much shows this...

They don't. Or at the very least, they don't have to, and choose not to.

source: dude trust me

The only times I ever remember being warned were a couple times a year or so ago. Every other time(not many, but still) it's just been straight to the banhammer. Admins aren't required to warn people or judge intent - hell, just look at the load of (somewhat deserved)manuel bans getting handed out lately. I'm certain a good number of those could have been handled by "hey please review the MRP rules and don't do that again, next time it's a ban" considering how new it is. But it seems flexing and quota filling is a higher priority as of late for certain admins. Admins that wouldn't still be on the team if the old guidelines were still in effect. Admins that wouldn't drag down the good admins(which are the majority) with their poor conduct.

could you cite some examples

[Arianya]

The only times I ever remember being warned were a couple times a year or so ago.

I can fact check you all day if you really want, but the more honest thing would just be to admit you don't like /tg/ and would rather other people share your opinion without making up dumb shit to complain about

[deedubya]

They don't. Or at the very least, they don't have to, and choose not to.

People get off with warnings all of the time.

Who's word should I take?

I'll PM you my note history if you really don't believe me. Same for Lazen, but you could also just pull up my player panel if you really wanted to.

-snip-

Or an admin could post them publicly without consent, I guess. Fortunate for you that the "privacy is expected by players" conveniently leaves out admin logs, notes, and other private correspondence.

Last warning I got was listed as 7+ months according to statbus, which is still the better part of a year. Same one you posted, actually. Why does statbus show 7 when it's only been 6 and spare change?

Spoiler:

[Lazengann]

can you cite some examples?

[Anonmare]

Oh hey I remember the admin manual when Shaps took me under their wing. I lost it when I changed computers, it made good reference material for arguing admin policy and conduct.

I'm not sure sure what you mean when you say nobody is following it. I got adminned a little after 2017 IIRC and we were always drilled with it. I can't honestly say anything has changed. Except for the gross abundance of anime and a more casual tone but the professionalism was more of a guideline anyway. I didn't care for it anyway, I was there to have fun and facilitate fun, not wipe asses

[deedubya]

can you cite some examples?

Just from my own history:

Beaned for BoH bombing a blob(back when we had tear in reality), didn't know at the time that blob core was immune to z-level shifts. Even warned the crew to get the fuck away from the blob. Admin understood the intent/reasoning and went for a ban anyway. Didn't complain because it was only a day and the note was accurate, but still no warning, straight to bantown.
what I would have done: warning, since the player obviously understood that they fucked up and weren't intentionally griefing, then on to ban town if the incident happens again(it never did)

Beaned for "ban-baiting"
>be me
>want to oxytank suicide because I'm hopping off
>walk into an open door into chem since there's people there and it's funnier to explode in front of a crowd
>say "hey uh think I need a doctor"
>about to type suicide
>chemist wordlessly tables me, other chemist sets me on fire, wordless coordination seconds apart, obviously metacomming(even checked the logs for that)
>ahelp the obvious nonantag murder
>no response
>get revived by an uninvolved doctor
>walk in through open door again to retrieve stolen shit
>wind up tabling the chemist(that I assume had my shit) in the ensuing altercation
>die to the chemist tag team again
>send second ahelp wondering why the fuck the first one hadn't been answered, stated that I got merk'd again
>get accused of banbaiting
>?????
>banned for a day
what I would have done: informed the player that I was looking into or handling the first case then actually doing so, and rejected the second one as IC issue with no other action taken

unrelated but kinda funny: I got a warning for minor ick ock because I immediately ahelped myself for doing it, the admin on at the time didn't even notice me doing it

[Nabski]

can you cite some examples?

Just from my own history:

Dumb Shit

From seeing the way you talk about things, it's not surprising you manage to talk yourself out of notes and into bans.

[Arianya]

-snip-

Or an admin could post them publicly without consent, I guess. Fortunate for you that the "privacy is expected by players" conveniently leaves out admin logs, notes, and other private correspondence.

Perhaps if you thought for two seconds, you'd realize that you rather waive expectations of privacy regarding your note record by publicly making claims about your note record.

Last warning I got was listed as 7+ months according to statbus, which is still the better part of a year. Same one you posted, actually. Why does statbus show 7 when it's only been 6 and spare change?

Spoiler:

Rounding, probably.

And I'm not surprised your last note was 7 months ago, given you've played maybe 10 times in the last 2 months. Truly letting ourselves down when we don't note you when you're not even playing.

[Stickymayhem]

>WHY ARE THE ADMINS SO BAD OH MY GOD POLICY GLOBAL DISASTER IT'S ALL BAD]
>Literally not even one page later
>HERE'S THAT TIME I GOT BANNED FOR SOMETHING RETARDED I DID AND THE ADMIN IS BAD

imagine just telling on yourself this hard lmao at least make it less obvious that it's "i ban pls demote"

[PKPenguin321]

Also worth noting (heh) that most warnings I give don't end with me actually giving a "Warned" note, I just clear up a misunderstanding and tell em to be good next time

[Super Aggro Crag]

oh boy oh boy, you should've seen our (top secret, never publicly published) manual in 2011 written by headmin thickwillynilly. it started with "Rule 0. If it's funny, it's okay."

i play deep rock galactic with willynilly to this day and tell him of the shenanigans this server has gotten up to in his absence

[cacogen]

yeah but 2011 was lit, even though I eventually promoted public logs

Public logs were one of the best changes this server has ever had. The more transparent and accountable the admin process is, the better.

there are public admin logs?

[BeeSting12]

yeah but 2011 was lit, even though I eventually promoted public logs

Public logs were one of the best changes this server has ever had. The more transparent and accountable the admin process is, the better.

there are public admin logs?

Yes but only for various actions the admin takes, not for admin PMs and bans I believe.

can you cite some examples?

Just from my own history:

{dumb shit}

1. If you do something like that and it doesn't immediately end the round, you're liable. That has been a precedent for as long as I can remember so people don't run around bombing stuff willy nilly.

2. Potentially the most clear cut case of ban baiting ever. Made it really obvious you were gonna kill yourself and make a mess while doing it, and get mad when you get beaned? Wtf lol. That alone is a ridiculous ahelp to make but then you come back for round two AND AHELP AGAIN??? You deserved every second of that dayban.

3. Only case where the admin is mildly in the wrong, if it's minor then who tf cares and you obviously realized the mistake. You're still a moron for snitching on yourself.

>Please maintain a professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is
expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk
casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other
Space Station 13 communities. While being banned on another server while you are
an admin, doesn't necessarily mean punitive action here, it is expected that you don't
go out of your way to grief/raid other servers either.

This is still enforced when admins are acting in an official capacity.

>Be polite, but casual, in adminhelps. You don't want to be unapproachable, you don't want
to be an asshole. You're there to make sure things run smoothly and as many people as
possible have fun. If you expect the players to treat you with respect, treat them with
respect as well.

Can I get an example of admins that are impolite in ahelps? I feel like there's some that don't really do the "casual" part but everyone seems to be polite at bare minimum.

>Bans are either to teach a lesson, punish malicious behavior, or remove shitty players from
the community. Banning for mistakes doesn't really serve any of these purposes (an honest
mistake can be explained and in the future avoided without having the players experience
ruined with a ban). Of course a jobban might be warranted if a mistake is repeated multiple
times.

I feel like sometimes admins are overzealous in their banning but for every honest mistake ban, there's likely several that are let slide.

>Always try to consider what you'd have done in the players place. They don't have the
luxury of piecing it together from attack logs, infinite time to make a decision, knowing
every antag, etc. They'll act on incomplete information, they'll act on emotion. Don't judge
them vs. perfect actions, but based on reasonable ones in their place.

I actually do see bans going against this but theyre generally caught by the appeal process

>Don't ban when you don't have to. Let people off with a warning if applicable.

Examples pls?

>Finally, the most important point...why aren't the rules and guidelines for administrators a matter of public knowledge?

There's at least three locations where this is publicly available.

[bobbahbrown]

yeah but 2011 was lit, even though I eventually promoted public logs

Public logs were one of the best changes this server has ever had. The more transparent and accountable the admin process is, the better.

there are public admin logs?

Yes but only for various actions the admin takes, not for admin PMs and bans I believe.

Most admin actions are logged in game.txt save for sensitive stuff like admin pms and asay which are sometimes logged in game.txt but censored by mso when applicable

[Jack7D1]

?️?️

[Cobby]

Sip

[Vekter]

Go complain on digg.

[IkeTG]

I'll PM you my note history if you really don't believe me. Same for Lazen, but you could also just pull up my player panel if you really wanted to.

... and that will only show how easy it was to cite bans and notes while trying to prove that admins dont warn anyone with, at best, shaky anecdotal evidence from the PoV of one player :3c

[Qbmax32]

dee dubs posts bait like this every week and we all take it hook line and sinker every time

[Lazengann]

I thought the examples spoke for themselves, if you got killed the first time you trespassed in chemistry why would you expect otherwise on the second time in

[Flatulent]

dee dubs posts bait like this every week and we all take it hook line and sinker every time

CANT STOP WINNING

[Screemonster]

imagine ahelping for nonantag murder when you broke into someone's department and started a fight with the people working there

one of my favourite stories of awesome was a virologist being a shit to the chemists for the entire round demanding a fuckton of mutagen and getting the CMO to threaten to fire them if they didn't make it, and it turned out one of the chemists was a traitor with an easy steal objective that he'd already done without tc and right at the end of the round he just spawned an ebow and dunked them both right as the shuttle was about to dock, and the other chemist was just "oh thank fuck" and they both went to the shuttle and emagged it before the CMO and virologist managed to get free

chemist bros working together to boot people the fuck out is not evidence of metacoms, the language of "this asshole is in chemistry but is not a chemist" is pretty well understood

[Anonmare]

I really don't get why people think chemistry's a public access area when it's arguably almost as dangerous as toxins in terms of the shit you can make in there.