miner nerf #072095279

[Timonk]

lol

[Timonk]

i cant shitpost on github so i shitpost here

[Vekter]

It would be helpful if you posted the PR you were fucking weeping over so we have some context.

EDIT: Nevermind I decided I didn't want to wait

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/51706

Tl;Dr survival pens don't work in normal atmosphere now, so no more being a validhunting God as Miner because you can hard heal through anything.

Based change. This is why everyone is afraid of touching mining - miners cry when their side job of killing megafauna is touched because they don't actually want to mine to begin with.

Monster hunter job when?

[Timonk]

mining is balanced as it is right now theres no need to nerf

[Domitius]

Mining isn't getting nerfed though

[Flatulent]

good change

[remanseptim]

add a traitor item that lets you attach weakened destabilizing forces to spacemen.

[Vekter]

mining is balanced as it is right now theres no need to nerf

Ah yes, our Megafauna combat simulator with mining elements is very well balanced. Why do we even call it mining anymore?

[Timonk]

just step on lavaland/space for a second, inject the pen into a beaker and you can make a pill which is 10 times easier to use

its just an annoyance

[remanseptim]

Ah yes, our Megafauna combat simulator with mining elements is very well balanced. Why do we even call it mining anymore?

does it really matter if minerals get to the station? you need to mine to get points, and by the time you've gotten enough materials to kit yourself out properly, the station's usually set unless you have someone building SS14 with a linked RCD. it's good job design that rewards players who mine with an advantage over the lategame, and one of the roles that actually HAS a lategame. only other job that really fits that mold is xenobiologist.

[remanseptim]

just step on lavaland/space for a second, inject the pen into a beaker and you can make a pill which is 10 times easier to use

its just an annoyance

new PR: Survival Medipens can no longer be injected into containers.

[Flatulent]

we call it mining because miners will always bring back mats even if they are going after fauna

they need still fucking medipens and stabilisation serums

[Flatulent]

I also don’t follow why would you need miner medipens as MD if doing all good chems requires 2 minutes and a chem dispenser

[Ivuchnu]

>not letting miners altruistically spend bunch of points for pile of medipens in medbay

[Cobby]

the real sin is it's a pretty baby nerf for something that literally ruined the ability for miner points to be integrated into the economy (well that and the fact it's literally infinitely buyable so long as you have monopoly points).

[Ivuchnu]

If you feel like miners buy too much pens, raise their price so miners have to mine more before dying to Bubblegum yet another time.

[oranges]

I'm going to merge that PR just because you made this thread.

[Timonk]

wow hes actually mad at me lol

[Iatots]

How can nuke disk be z-locked but not magic miner pen?

[Yenwodyah]

Remove miner

[wesoda25]

It’s a wack solution to a major problem

[stan_albatross]

The main thing this PR seems to be nerfing is on station miner murderbones, as miner can use the pens to heal very easily. It does not nerf medical much (since MDs can just buy atropine pens and they almost all will be from now on for the all-damage medibot medkit), to be honest the "problem" of medbay using pens for heals seems manuel-exclusive/limited to long rounds where miners have so little else to do with their points. Even then it only heals brute, burn and oxyloss (the third not being that much of a big concern for medbay, more of a problem for lexorin syringe gun users but that's rather niche) meaning that the hardest damage to quick heal (toxin) is untouched. Chemists can already make a salcylic acid + oxandronalone pill factory in the time it takes a miner to come back with their first load of ore (10-15 minutes) so the impact on medbay is small from this PR. To keep original functionality as intact as possible but still nerf the main target of the PR (quick heals for on station traitors) I say that the lavaland extract in pens should cause screen shake + minor dizziness if used off the lavaland zlevel, because it doesn't work well if used off lavaland or something. Not the low pressure thing because that makes no sense mechanically or logic wise. If mr miner murderboner wants his easy on station heals, he should go farm legion cores, which is considerably more effort than spamclicking a vendor. Hopefully this would keep the side use of pens (medbay heals on manuel rounds) intact while nerfing their ided use (freeheals during murderbones).

[Qbopper]

daily reminder that in a game about conflict and paranoia on a metal death trap in space it makes no sense to have people fucking off to go fight monsters on lavaland or whatever

[XivilaiAnaxes]

daily reminder that in a game about conflict and paranoia on a metal death trap in space it makes no sense to have people fucking off to go fight monsters on lavaland or whatever

It makes tonnes of sense. Research stations need resources. Mining for them on a forsaken shithole full of death traps is more engaging than having them delivered from fucking cargo.

[Timonk]

Qbopper you had me in the first part ngl

[Qbopper]

daily reminder that in a game about conflict and paranoia on a metal death trap in space it makes no sense to have people fucking off to go fight monsters on lavaland or whatever

It makes tonnes of sense. Research stations need resources. Mining for them on a forsaken shithole full of death traps is more engaging than having them delivered from fucking cargo.

you're missing my point and I don't even agree with what you just said

• it's not that much more engaging; many more people like miner now that there's a lot of things to do that are explicitly NOT mining for minerals in the role
• your comment about the research station is easy to argue against with "why would they expend extra resources and money outfitting a research station with its own mining shit when they could just ship it in from a dedicated mining platform and not risk personnel on the station/etc." if you really want to be hung up on the lore explanation
• I was arguing to the greater design of the game as a whole, where this specifically makes no sense

Imagine if you were playing werewolf or TTT or something and you could just dip out of the game for a chunk of the round to play, like, pacman, or something, and then you could show up with a minigun and body armor

leaving the round at hand to do shit off the station is absolutely a clash against the base of the game but it'll never get redone again/removed

[NecromancerAnne]

This isn't just a baby nerf, it isn't going to do enough. There are ways to get around it, and one of the most powerful things miners can exploit us spacewalking either suitless or suited thanks to these pens. They can buy hardsuits, get hardsuits as loot or simply use survival pens to outheal the pressure damage. Blowing out a window on the station to space can also create pockets you can use to heal.

[confused rock]

qbopper is correct.

[Shadowflame909]

Remove miner

No dont its one of the two jobs I actually enjoy now

geneticist is boring and hasn't had mutations added to it in years

botany got nerfed and now I cant be darned to figure out how to mutate the good stuff

Cook is always full

It's just xenobio and mining for me and if both of them were removed I would literally have nothing to do

[NecromancerAnne]

geneticist is boring and hasn't had mutations added to it in years

Except all the mutations added this year, but since those aren't powergame gear I guess they dont exist for you.

[Shadowflame909]

geneticist is boring and hasn't had mutations added to it in years

Except all the mutations added this year, but since those aren't powergame gear I guess they dont exist for you.

unironically this

what am i gonna do with shooting out my tongue (sorry armhulenn)

I just lose a tongue!

Same with the one that makes you literally lose a random limb in an effort to escape handcuffs

You literally lose a limb.

Compare that to telekinesis, space immunity, pre-nerf hulk, x-ray, just some really valuable stuff.

That is not to say some things that could have been cool simply didn't get in, like felinid wolverine claws.

but ultimately genetics has gotten nothing to play with in a long long time.

[confused rock]

you cant' even PICK THE LIMB YOU LOSE WHY

[Timonk]

This nerf isn't even needed, I've never seen a miner put a shit ton of pens in medbay

[Kingtrin]

>Hey guys we don't like how miners feel really disconnected from the station
>In fact some of the only things they do besides ore deliveries is helping medbay via survival pens and space fights with xenos
>Lets make them even more disconnected from the station by severely limiting their ability to heal critical crew members with those pens
>Hey you know what else guys what if we make their gear useless outside of lavaland?

I get that a lot of people don't like miners in their current state but thats hardly a good reason to shit on them like this. I'm still waiting for anyone to make any PR's making mining more closely integrated into the station itself. So far from maintainers and coders all I've seen are years of salty complaints and nerfs about lavaland/mining that don't even address the underlying problem. I would not be surprised if they eventually start trying to justify removing lavaland and mining loot altogether.

[XDTM]

I mean, miner interaction with the crew should definitely not be Medbay-In-A-Pen. Depending on the medipen balance it would either undermine medbay or be redundant.

[Kingtrin]

I mean, miner interaction with the crew should definitely not be Medbay-In-A-Pen. Depending on the medipen balance it would either undermine medbay or be redundant.

While true there's no plans on implementing any sort of interactions beyond this. This leaves mining even more in a position where it is easy to criticize and hard to justify spending time making PR's for.

[Jack7D1]

Oranges I love you please marry me

[Shadowflame909]

I mean, miner interaction with the crew should definitely not be Medbay-In-A-Pen. Depending on the medipen balance it would either undermine medbay or be redundant.

I do be getting a medical doctor to implant a legion core into me so I dont get rekt by the goliath tendril + legion combo/megafauna in general

[Cimika]

Everyone seems to be missing the true aim of my PR, and I'm absolutely certain that some are doing it on purpose. The aim was never about stopping from giving pen to medical or whatever. That's just an afterthought that I edited in the PR because someone mentioned it to me.

The aim of this PR is to leave mining untouched, and to limit the use of the pens on station. Right now, a lot of people play miner just because of all the incredible (OP?) gear that you can from down there. You can get amazing weapons and armors, you can get syndicate encryption keys to validhunt even more ! A good chunk of those people use this gear to validhunt / murderbone on station. Why does a job that already have access to some of best weapons in the game (hiero staff for one), that is also fairly easy to get (Hiero cheesed by spamming pens while standing still), should also have access to an instantly usable HUGE HoT that basically makes them immortal to most form of combat on station ? Why are those players allowed to basically become godlike on station, with incredible gear, tools and healing items ? This is not healthy. It just attracts validhunter / murderborner / powergamer that want the loot to shit on other players.

And on the plus side my PR is not a HUGE nerf, it just makes them harmer to use on station. But you can see by all the negative feedback, the hate and the backlash that miners don't want anyone to touch their precious, overpowered gear.

People were up in arms about the cloning removal, about the canisters, and about a dozen more changes that ended up being better for the game. The issue is that most of those that complains just don't want to be weaker. Like people complaining about staying dead longer because of cloning removal. The point is that if you don't get killed, why should you be allower to basically jump back in the game with almost no consequences, and almost no down time ?
Everything requires a downside to be balanced. Survival pens are immensely powerful heal that allows you to sustain against literally every form of damage in the game, so they shouldn't be possible to be used everywhere.

That's my opinion at least, and I'll die on this hill, because people that can't accept downsides / being weak in one way or another are a plague on any games.

[Ayy Lemoh]

The point is that if you don't get killed, why should you be allower to basically jump back in the game with almost no consequences, and almost no down time?

Because cloning still took a fuck ton of time. It was only fast if you were the only person in line (unlikely as fuck) or someone speedran higher tier parts. That was likely one of the reasons why people felt cloning wasn't op.

[Cobby]

I mean, miner interaction with the crew should definitely not be Medbay-In-A-Pen. Depending on the medipen balance it would either undermine medbay or be redundant.

While true there's no plans on implementing any sort of interactions beyond this. This leaves mining even more in a position where it is easy to criticize and hard to justify spending time making PR's for.

dont make prs then if you are going to not consider the REALLY BIG PROBLEM that is allegedly byond comprehension to everyone but non-contributors.

I dont think limiting the ability of one of their many loot memes, particularly one of the few that is literally infinite, is going to make mining easier to criticize.

[Cimika]

The point is that if you don't get killed, why should you be allower to basically jump back in the game with almost no consequences, and almost no down time?

Because cloning still took a fuck ton of time. It was only fast if you were the only person in line (unlikely as fuck) or someone speedran higher tier parts. That was likely one of the reasons why people felt cloning wasn't op.

Then I don't see why cloning being gone is bad. I'm a /decently good/ medical player and I could revive you from being husked at shift start with nothing more than basic surgeries and tool in under 2 minutes. I don't see how that's long, considering you got /killed/ and you're on a justified timeout. But anyway that's not the point of the thread.

[Shadowflame909]

The point is that if you don't get killed, why should you be allower to basically jump back in the game with almost no consequences, and almost no down time?

Because cloning still took a fuck ton of time. It was only fast if you were the only person in line (unlikely as fuck) or someone speedran higher tier parts. That was likely one of the reasons why people felt cloning wasn't op.

Then I don't see why cloning being gone is bad. I'm a /decently good/ medical player and I could revive you from being husked at shift start with nothing more than basic surgeries and tool in under 2 minutes. I don't see how that's long, considering you got /killed/ and you're on a justified timeout. But anyway that's not the point of the thread.

it's honestly bad because destruction is so much easier then repair.

>blows up an entire department, gibbing 1 person and utterly brutalizing 10 people

>do a emagged gibber lube meme that ends up killing 20 people very rapidly

>his grace

>e-swords

You might be good enough at medbay to fully reconstruct someone back to health, but that'll take significantly more time and effort then rounds generally last.\

Edit: So now these no-cloner rounds will generally leave more people out of the round then before.

Which!! Will only promote some antag nerfs for being lame because I don't forsee any other option with the headcoder having "make death a legitimate consequence" goal.

Dying is just so easy.

[Cimika]

You might be good enough at medbay to fully reconstruct someone back to health, but that'll take significantly more time and effort then rounds generally last.

I don't see how it can take a whole shift to fix someone, even if they are /fucked/.

[Shadowflame909]

You might be good enough at medbay to fully reconstruct someone back to health, but that'll take significantly more time and effort then rounds generally last.

I don't see how it can take a whole shift to fix someone, even if they are /fucked/.

All I know is whenever I get to medbay and it's not overcrowded with bodies, maybe because I was utilizing the experimentor and I ended up with the bomb mysterious object, or I got mauled by a bunch of space carp, or I stepped in lava and died.

It generally takes like 10-15 minutes to revive me after they tend my wounds and bring my limbs back from the destructive state, longer if any of my limbs are gone/blown off/incinerated.

BUT, when you add that to a crazy chaotic round like nukies, or revs, or traitors, just generally some round where a large amount of people are dying.

Medbay kind of stops entirely, bodies are everywhere, medical might even be in hiding or scattered trying to get to safety. Very little amount of people are actually healing and are overwhelmed.

Players just can't keep up with the destruction.

[XDTM]

snip

I agree with the intention of the PR, but the implementation is hard to justify without breaking immersion. As i mentioned in a comment, there is no way a medipen would be designed to lock up in specific pressures if there is no actual downside otherwise, and having to depressurize a room on station seems way too convoluted as an intended use method.
Hence my other suggestion of making the main chem in the mix, lavaland extract, ineffective outside of lavaland, which would make sense given the name, and feels less 'forced' as a balancing mechanism.

[Jin]

If you feel like miners buy too much pens, raise their price so miners have to mine more before dying to Bubblegum yet another time.

Bubblegum really isn't that hard of a boss, even if you can't stand pretty much still and cheese him like the colossus. The most you'll need is pens for is the 1st phase and maybe a couple for the second if you have bad ping.

Just run straight

[Shadowflame909]

If you feel like miners buy too much pens, raise their price so miners have to mine more before dying to Bubblegum yet another time.

Bubblegum really isn't that hard of a boss, even if you can't stand pretty much still and cheese him like the colossus. The most you'll need is pens for is the 1st phase and maybe a couple for the second if you have bad ping.

Just run straight

okay "gamer who kills megafauna 10 minutes into the round"

smh elitists trying to balance the game around them instead of the casual

[Cimika]

snip

I agree with the intention of the PR, but the implementation is hard to justify without breaking immersion. As i mentioned in a comment, there is no way a medipen would be designed to lock up in specific pressures if there is no actual downside otherwise, and having to depressurize a room on station seems way too convoluted as an intended use method.
Hence my other suggestion of making the main chem in the mix, lavaland extract, ineffective outside of lavaland, which would make sense given the name, and feels less 'forced' as a balancing mechanism.

I don't think that would be a good idea, firstly because of icebox, secondly because I tried to keep the healing pen mostly the same, except it can be used in niche cases.

I'll also argue that I can change the description to make it use an air needle like the hypospray and say higher air pressure prevents the chemicals from leaving the pen or something. If we allow PKAs to be affected by pressure, why not pens?

[Jin]

If you feel like miners buy too much pens, raise their price so miners have to mine more before dying to Bubblegum yet another time.

Bubblegum really isn't that hard of a boss, even if you can't stand pretty much still and cheese him like the colossus. The most you'll need is pens for is the 1st phase and maybe a couple for the second if you have bad ping.

Just run straight

okay "gamer who kills megafauna 10 minutes into the round"

smh elitists trying to balance the game around them instead of the casual

It takes you 3 pens and 3 legion cores to kill an ash drake.