/tg/Station 13

So they gib people like normal cult, for wizard tier powers? Shadowling ascension?

I honestly have no clue if it was deserved to yeet their tools until I know how OP they get

But from rocks explanation, they do sound kinda OP ngl

I understand manuels in an odd spot but raves ruling is really hard to swallow. Granted there was no note, but saying a jaunting-gibbing mini wizard deserves another chance to wreck havoc is really odd and not what i expected from rule 6. Do manuel regulars want antags like heretics to be given second chances if they get caught out "early"? And what does that look like from an enforcement standpoint?

Also rave says this is not a case that should be precedent setting but holy hell manuel needs more precedents in order to clarify these situations. If you walk out of this case without a clear ruling you can expect abuse and confusion.

I mean you can literally kill nightmares, nukeops, wizards and blob with no care on manuel

So if this antag is at that level of "Oh shit if I don't kill you you'll kill me" then they just might need to be added to the murderbone central policy. (and then get removed from manuel rotation for being another no-rp antag)

rave should have spawned the heretic book in the evidence lockers rather than on the person if they cared about upholding the no delete bit, which I think is fine for manuel. It's still fairly new, so admins should err on the side that people dont know what the role needs/has/etc.

really though there should be a way to replicate the book (if there isnt already) so your victory isnt tied directly to 1 item. having to get admins involved over this is a bit of an ugly solution.

The entire admin team is in shambles.

Cobby wrote:rave should have spawned the heretic book in the evidence lockers rather than on the person if they cared about upholding the no delete bit, which I think is fine for manuel.

This is the mistake I made. He also needed the heart, but yeah, I should have spawned them in an evidence locker. Thank you for pointing this out, Cobby.

Cobby wrote:rave should have spawned the heretic book in the evidence lockers rather than on the person if they cared about upholding the no delete bit, which I think is fine for manuel. It's still fairly new, so admins should err on the side that people dont know what the role needs/has/etc.

really though there should be a way to replicate the book (if there isnt already) so your victory isnt tied directly to 1 item. having to get admins involved over this is a bit of an ugly solution.

It is kind of funny though

Imagine being able to stop the wizard by shove stunning them, taking their spellbook from their backpack and chucking it into space.

No spells without your tome nerd

Cobby wrote:really though there should be a way to replicate the book (if there isnt already) so your victory isnt tied directly to 1 item. having to get admins involved over this is a bit of an ugly solution.

Is there a way to replicate the heart that I am not aware of?

h-h-h-h-hugbox

RaveRadbury wrote:

Cobby wrote:really though there should be a way to replicate the book (if there isnt already) so your victory isnt tied directly to 1 item. having to get admins involved over this is a bit of an ugly solution.

Is there a way to replicate the heart that I am not aware of?

you can make new hearts with a ritual on a rune, but you'd need the rune to begin with

its like a poppy and a normal heart i think iirc

hogbox, traitor got found out for doing traitor things then he ahelps to his admin buddy to get his antag tools back

Shadowflame909 wrote: Imagine being able to stop the wizard by shove stunning them, taking their spellbook from their backpack and chucking it into space.
No spells without your tome nerd

I mean you can take their hat!

I would've been absolutely fuming if james was running around jaunting and gibbing people before we arrested him, but he gained those powers like 5 minutes after being released. after those he was impossible to stop without lethal force and he would continue to gib people and grow in power, but apparently I was validhunting for repeatedly trying to kill him as a security officer, the ones who the rules we stole from goon say are supposed to validhunt?

if you play manuel and dont expect stupid boinks i feel like you're stupid

Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You might want to actually play and admin on Manuel then.

Was watching the experience as an observer and, while the round was hilarious with Mooney constantly getting friendly fired, I pointed out in dchat that having the antag tied to an item they can't get back if they didn't get set up first is plain bad design. There's already rules for deleting traitor objective items such as the hypospray, and the disk outright cannot be destroyed or leave the station, so naturally this rule should apply since the Heretic items can't be recovered. Rave is in the right here regarding this.

On the other hand, from an RP stand point, Rock is ALSO in the right for feeling the need to destroy dangerous items. Nobody is familiar enough with the new antag (and it's arguably meta to know everything about every antag) to know whether there is a way to get those items back through a recall ability like Wizards can.

On the other OTHER hand, you don't need to look far to find headmin rulings stating over and over ad-nauseum that antag rounds are not sacred. Otherwise every Manuel main would be drowning in antag tokens from all those "Manuel Moments."

I think this boils down to a grey area that should have been addressed through better design decisions for this new antag. I think that being able to deep-fry EVERYTHING is also something that might need to be looked at.

What I want to know is, if the items were destroyed in the cremator/chucked into lava/space, would the decision have been made different? It's arguably higher RP than "lul i deep fry and ated it."

RaveRadbury wrote:

Cobby wrote:really though there should be a way to replicate the book (if there isnt already) so your victory isnt tied directly to 1 item. having to get admins involved over this is a bit of an ugly solution.

Is there a way to replicate the heart that I am not aware of?

acting like i keep up with features

still have only played 1 time with families, and not even as a member. not sure if it's a blessing or a curse.

RaveRadbury wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You might want to actually play and admin on Manuel then.

Clearly not a prerequisite for good takes on Manuel

Stickymayhem wrote:

RaveRadbury wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You might want to actually play and admin on Manuel then.

Clearly not a prerequisite for good takes on Manuel

lol!

admin help i was ARRESTED by SECURITY as ANTAG!! they took my STUFF and let me FREE. HOLY SHIT ADMIN. I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT IS HAPPENING. PLEASE BAN THEM FOR RULE 6

BrianBackslide wrote: What I want to know is, if the items were destroyed in the cremator/chucked into lava/space, would the decision have been made different? It's arguably higher RP than "lul i deep fry and ated it."

I sincerely hope not, because that would be a ridiculous reason to give him new items. Either way:

you're right, brian, that WOULD be higher rp, if you gave high rp examples. throwing something that isn't a corpse in the cremator? haphazardly adding more debris to the orbit? fucking lava? none of those are much better than frying it. Even if one of those was a good example it would be HIGH rp, but this isn't high rp, this is medium. Medium so that we can have people giving their effort to making interesting scenarios even if they're detached from reality. this is a station with a fucking clown on it which is occasionally hit by "meaty ores". Deep frying it and eating it in front of his face wasn't done to make sure he never got the item, if I wanted to do that I would've just hidden it in a satchel in a dorms locker or something. deep frying it and eating it in front of his face did nothing for me except paint me as a target for james if he wanted to get revenge. Is "this dude ATE a book and a heart RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME" going to kill your immersion when so much other bullshit exists?

REMEMBER KIDS WHEN JACK SAYS THAT I SPENT THE ENTIRE ROUND VALIDHUNTING A DANGEROUS ANTAGONIST AS SECURITY AND THAT HE DOESN'T THINK I SAID A SINGLE WORD TO JAMES THE ENTIRE ROUND IT'S NOT A FUCKING PEANUT POST

why do you want to ruin rounds, confusedrock

BrianBackslide wrote: having the antag tied to an item they can't get back if they didn't get set up first is plain bad design. T"

ahelping when you lose your pda as traitor is bad design,
ahelping when you get caught by sec is bad design ,
ahelping when sec catches you with the hands in the jam and deleting your items instead of accepting the fact you lost is bad design

Incorrect. You can complete your objectives without those items as any antag that is not Heretic and Cultist. (Outside of stealing the nuke core, and I'm not sure if non-cultists can even destroy those knives)
The difference here is that Heretics cannot complete their objectives without their special items.

I also said that antag rounds aren't sacred. I agree that not taking the L when you were caught is dumb.

Manuel is a shit server with shit rules that continue to be unevenly enforced many months later.

Says the guy who doesn't play on it because why would I willingly eat shit when I've got something good already.

I don't agree with the whole 30 minutes thing. The main content only goes for 60 minutes so you're already halfway there, and 90 minutes is supposed to be the cutoff for all content. Not really a fair goal to set your rounds to when considering how to handle a ticket.

The other thing I'd say is that this punishes rock for capturing the antagonist. I suggest in the future you create antags or pump midround ones to keep up the pace of the round, it will always tide over better.

Armhulen wrote:I don't agree with the whole 30 minutes thing. The main content only goes for 60 minutes so you're already halfway there, and 90 minutes is supposed to be the cutoff for all content. Not really a fair goal to set your rounds to when considering how to handle a ticket.

The other thing I'd say is that this punishes rock for capturing the antagonist. I suggest in the future you create antags or pump midround ones to keep up the pace of the round, it will always tide over better.

I'll take all of this into consideration and I appreciate you taking time to weigh in.

When you say that I "punished Rock" do you mean that spawning in the items punished him, or that the ticket itself was a punishment? He did not receive a note for any of this.

RaveRadbury wrote:

Armhulen wrote:I don't agree with the whole 30 minutes thing. The main content only goes for 60 minutes so you're already halfway there, and 90 minutes is supposed to be the cutoff for all content. Not really a fair goal to set your rounds to when considering how to handle a ticket.

The other thing I'd say is that this punishes rock for capturing the antagonist. I suggest in the future you create antags or pump midround ones to keep up the pace of the round, it will always tide over better.

I'll take all of this into consideration and I appreciate you taking time to weigh in.

When you say that I "punished Rock" do you mean that spawning in the items punished him, or that the ticket itself was a punishment? He did not receive a note for any of this.

Rebounding the antag back into the game with his equipment would be what i'm referring to here, to a player it feels like they just weren't supposed to be conflicting with the guy yet or that because of their actions the guy gets a second chance where otherwise he wouldn't (especially when it's an arrest, not a murder it feels even worse)

admin sec take my antag toy away ban he

SkeletalElite wrote:admin sec take my antag toy away ban he

shitpost all you please, you can't unfeedback rave all my useful tips

Armhulen wrote:

SkeletalElite wrote:admin sec take my antag toy away ban he

shitpost all you please, you can't unfeedback rave all my useful tips

give them new antag tools or a way to acquire new antag tools sure, thats a problem with the gamemode, but none of that is rock's problem.

Edit: to clarify, rave should have acted as more of a "dungeon master" than a rule enforcer in this situation. Do something to the round to make it more interesting? Sure. Boink rock and tell him not to take away the antags stuff? Why?

Armhulen wrote:Rebounding the antag back into the game with his equipment would be what i'm referring to here, to a player it feels like they just weren't supposed to be conflicting with the guy yet or that because of their actions the guy gets a second chance where otherwise he wouldn't (especially when it's an arrest, not a murder it feels even worse)

Under different circumstances (such as solo Heretic rolling on dynamic) I would have noted Rock for what they did. So, I did think that they did something wrong. Sec protocol is to put contraband in the evidence locker (so I guess there's an MRP Rule 8 aspect as well). It's obviously so antags can try to get it back. One of Jame's "protect" goals was a sec officer, who he was having some cool dialogue with. There could have been a whole infiltration sequence to recover the item, but rock chose to break protocol because his character is a dick. "I could have hid it in my locker, or the evidence locker, but I chose instead to deep fry it and eat it in front of him" Only one of those choices is acceptable and we practically beg people on the wiki to do this stuff instead of qdel'ing or using antag toys as sec. We have systems in place with intentional flaws so there can be cat-and-mouse gameplay (like what ended up happening), not so that player's can ruin the round for everyone else for their own personal amusement.

I don't get what the deal with Rock's Buzzo-level behavior is, but it doesn't fit MRP's escalation-style.

Pretty disappointed with how it turned out. Could've been handled less intrusively without contacting rock. Would've been more convenient to let the book-eating slide and just create more sources of conflict like Arm suggested instead of letting a captured antagonist get a second chance after being arrested.

Manuel seems to collect these little stories of pure derp on purpose.

It needs it's own Gamemaster to set precedents, not a collective effort to peanut post every complaint after these incidents happen to salvage the most stupid combination of derp to cause more manuels later. You can't just let it skate along without a singular guiding entity or this will happen constantly.
If rave would have been my GM IRL there would have been a wet willy and or a wedgie for being a bad GM who railroads shit FNR followed by an collective effort to kill his mary sue insert.

I nominate Raveradbury head of manuel.

Spicy

General Thrax wrote:Pretty disappointed with how it turned out. Could've been handled less intrusively without contacting rock. Would've been more convenient to let the book-eating slide and just create more sources of conflict like Arm suggested instead of letting a captured antagonist get a second chance after being arrested.

The issue was probably just that he decided to instantly deep fry and eat the items when the rest of security and command were going to talk to me. Any form of negotiation or interrogation or anything was ended right away. At the time I was providing a reason for what I was doing, I was justifying myself and trying to sway the other members of security to my side, you know, roleplaying. The reason why Manuel exists. To roleplay. While Rock thought it was engaging, I believe that talking to security and explaining myself would have been far more engaging for the rest of security than a person walking into the brig, immediately eating unobtainable items, and then saying "what'cha gonna do, bird boy?"

At the time of being given back the book and heart, I wasn't even captured. Security decided to implant me and throw me out of the brig once the roleplay opportunity was instead cancelled in favor of just eating the items without any other form of interaction. So it seems it was less a case of Rock being told to let an antagonist go and to ignore them entirely and more them being told not to silently deepfry and eat antag gear the moment you search someone and discover they are valid

Also, points awarded to the ghost in deadchat who predicted this all happening when they said I was fucked if I was doing RP stuff because Is-A-Lizard was playing security

NoxVS wrote:

General Thrax wrote:Pretty disappointed with how it turned out. Could've been handled less intrusively without contacting rock. Would've been more convenient to let the book-eating slide and just create more sources of conflict like Arm suggested instead of letting a captured antagonist get a second chance after being arrested.

The issue was probably just that he decided to instantly deep fry and eat the items when the rest of security and command were going to talk to me. Any form of negotiation or interrogation or anything was ended right away. At the time I was providing a reason for what I was doing, I was justifying myself and trying to sway the other members of security to my side, you know, roleplaying. The reason why Manuel exists. To roleplay. While Rock thought it was engaging, I believe that talking to security and explaining myself would have been far more engaging for the rest of security than a person walking into the brig, immediately eating unobtainable items, and then saying "what'cha gonna do, bird boy?"

At the time of being given back the book and heart, I wasn't even captured. Security decided to implant me and throw me out of the brig once the roleplay opportunity was instead cancelled in favor of just eating the items without any other form of interaction. So it seems it was less a case of Rock being told to let an antagonist go and to ignore them entirely and more them being told not to silently deepfry and eat antag gear the moment you search someone and discover they are valid

Also, points awarded to the ghost in deadchat who predicted this all happening when they said I was fucked if I was doing RP stuff because Is-A-Lizard was playing security

yeah that doesnt sound great i understand a bit more now

RaveRadbury wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You might want to actually play and admin on Manuel then.

this is a take that makes you look like a supreme faggot
it's the same thing as saying "when you code it"

Manuel is big cringe and is nothing but a laughingstock because of hugbox administrative decisions

Flatulent wrote:Manuel is big cringe and is nothing but a laughingstock because of hugbox administrative decisions

first part no, it's actually pretty based
second part yeah, there's definitely a palpable air of tension when it comes to worrying about being bwoinked. killing someone, even as an antag, has gotta be at least 5x more stressful

Pointing out "why did you give the antag the tools directly of deleting them was the problem" was a "peanut post"

Fuck you Jannies

I recommend everyone in this thread try peanut brittle unless you have a peanut allergy or hate peanuts

it good

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You'd have to actually be active and unbanned from discord to do any of these things sticky

Flatulent wrote:Manuel is big cringe and is nothing but a laughingstock because of hugbox administrative decisions

You must be glad you don't play there then

oranges wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You'd have to actually be active and unbanned from discord to do any of these things sticky

how is a whole admin banned from discord

that's like if the president was banned from the white house

he angered mso

Shadowflame909 wrote:

oranges wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Yeah I'm going to do my best to not let this become the norm on Manuel we aren't fucking baystation

You'd have to actually be active and unbanned from discord to do any of these things sticky

how is a whole admin banned from discord

that's like if the president was banned from the white house

If an admin is the president then mso is a lizard king controlling the USA from the shadows.

admins saying I valided james as hard as physically possible while killing all of my teammates when I was hesistant the whole way through and stopped whenever a mistake hurt one of (as in the same one several times in a fucking row) my coworkers while in the end even with what effort I did put in the antag ended up unstoppable leading to 6 people dying really makin me question what else I was supposed to do I could ignore him entirely despite stopping crime being my job and then only 5 people would die and I wouldn't be evil valid man or I could've valided as hard as possible and I would've maybe stopped James after he killed the first guy.
Makin me wonder if there is any universe where I get to stop james before he kills everyone without it being a step too far
makin me wonder what those guys james was trying to kill were supposed to do
makin me wonder if the "antags can do whatever we want" rule is completely reversed and now if I don't think someone is an antag I can be harsher to them
makin me wonder whose idea it was that we should just rip these roleplay rules from goon with basically no changes, a server which has an entirely different base ruleset. I'm under the impression this is already being reconsidered is why I didn't bother with any policy discussion.

confused rock wrote:admins saying I valided james as hard as physically possible while killing all of my teammates when I was hesistant the whole way through and stopped whenever a mistake hurt one of (as in the same one several times in a fucking row) my coworkers while in the end even with what effort I did put in the antag ended up unstoppable leading to 6 people dying really makin me question what else I was supposed to do I could ignore him entirely despite stopping crime being my job and then only 5 people would die and I wouldn't be evil valid man or I could've valided as hard as possible and I would've maybe stopped James after he killed the first guy.
Makin me wonder if there is any universe where I get to stop james before he kills everyone without it being a step too far
makin me wonder what those guys james was trying to kill were supposed to do
makin me wonder if the "antags can do whatever we want" rule is completely reversed and now if I don't think someone is an antag I can be harsher to them
makin me wonder whose idea it was that we should just rip these roleplay rules from goon with basically no changes, a server which has an entirely different base ruleset. I'm under the impression this is already being reconsidered is why I didn't bother with any policy discussion.

come on Rock don't act like there was nothing you could have done. All you had to do was not see valid gear and immediately decide to deep fry and eat it. Thats it. Rest of security was going to actually have an interesting roleplay opportunity but you ruined it for them. It seemed pretty obvious that the officer you said Rave spit in the face of with his decision was disappointed that rather than have any form of interaction with me you instead walked in, ate the whole driving force behind any interrogation or whatever. You and the other officer caught me before I had done anything and when you saw valid gear the first thing that went through your mind was how to immediately destroy it. There probably wouldn't have been any issue if you brought it to sec. Could have put it in evidence, could have given it to another officer or to the captain, could have kept it on you. Anything other than "VALID MAN NEEDS THIS TIME TO DESTROY IT"

It probably would have been fine if I had been tossed in perma or given more restrictions and released. Captain could have made that decision had there been any chance for any form of interrotion. All you had to do was literally anything aside from instantly deciding to deep fry the valids