DUDE, RP!!!

[BONERMASTER]

Huh, so, you really want to know?

Well, alright then. You must be the roleplayer I have been expecting.

Listen to this.

*plays tape*

"....


You are all sitting there, scratching your head how to get more RP, throwing in all sorts of non-sense to artifically force roleplay. Similar to an overdosing junkie stuffing rolling paper into his mouth, you think you got it, but you don't.

Listen, what are the two big routes that roleplay diverges on? Don't think, it's this: Open sandbox on one hand, where the participants control and change the world and create scenarios to experience themselves. On the other hand, you got an interactive, self-contained universe, where you can only influence things through your character, and where you will be subjected to the forces inside this universe. See the latter is the more far more widespread approach that we all know of, it is the essential building block for all RPGs and even most sandbox games too.

So, where do you guys go all sideways with your roleplay fix? Because you think that SS13 is a sandbox game, and you put in all these rules and expectations on the premise, that the players possess infinite power and creativity and that they create all sorts of scenarios for themselves. But they fucking don't. It's a roleplaying game, the scenario is already given, you are stuck in a deadly space station and must survive. Players start as certain roles, each holding a different angle to experience the game in.

Which ties in to murderboning and validhunting. This, is picking up on the game's premise, creating the scenario that the game is supposed to build for you. "Antags drive the round" is what some jannies will say on occassion, but most of the player controlled antags we have are too competitive to leave room for roleplay. A constant looming threat builds tension, and also leaves you with power to take action, essentially the perfect combination of motivation and goal. What we have now, in large parts, are either ghosts that do nothing the entire round, or complete lunatics that just overpower and kill you with no chance of fighting back. The only thing that this builds, is frustration and salt. And you can't blame the antags that play in these ways, they are just as quick to die to one single slip-up themselves. You have an ultra deadly game on one hand, where every conflict is high stakes, and on the other you want them to make funny gimmicks and do something interesting so we can have "roleplay". That's conflicting interest, because you are expecting antags to intentionally create vulnerabilities for themselves in a hardcore punisher game.

I'll point to you one antag, that I think is currently the best fit for this game. Who, you ask? Well, it's the blob.
This thing announces itself with a big fat message, it's slow enough to give you breathing room, it causes enough chaos and devastation that you can't ignore it, and most importantly, it let's every department engage in their actual role and contribute towards defeating it. See this is the kind of shit that this game needs, this is how you get the departments to work together, by giving them all the same goal and adding some urgency to it. If there is no benefit for you, not even a reason to do something for another department, then why should you be expected to do it? Why should a miner grab a bunch of plasma, run to chemistry and give it to the guy to make some mixture he will never even see used? He shouldn't, but if this plasma will kill the shit out of the blob and save the station, or at least stop it from eating cargo, then the motivation is completely different. This is the kind of scenario and antag that you should strive to create, and from good gameplay, you'll get players that fall in love with it, and from these will grow all your flavor and dude roleplay.

By the way, I hold these views as absolute truths and self-evident and I will sneer at you for trying to challenge them, but you are welcome to try to do so regardless. And now, I need a smoke. Wait, is this thing still on?

..."

*end of recording*

So, what do you think?

[Sheodir]

[youtube]23gSz3DURA0[/youtube]

[PKPenguin321]

>he likes blob

[Armhulen]

>he likes blob

>he in fact does not enjoy blob

[cybersaber101]

Blob is bad, shoot wall tell dead or you dead

[Space Panda]

i do agree that the good thing about blob is that it forces everyone to cooperate against it. and i believe that the reason people hate it the most is that it frequently happens right after the evac shuttle is called, forcing the round to go for at least 10 minutes longer when everybody is ready to go to the next

i think blob could actually be made a little bit stronger, and happen 15 minutes after a seemingly greenshift. get people by surprise when everybody is still very invested into the round. and make it stronger, because at this point in the game there are more people alive and the station is in a better shape.



and i believe that rping as an antag and still being competitive is very possible. it relies on deception and subtlety, and takes a little more effort, but in my opinion it is a lot more rewarding.

[Space Panda]

i need to change my style

[Space Panda]

Now I can stop typing like a clown.

[PKPenguin321]

Now I can stop typing like a clown.

gay, bring back the cool panda
this thread sucks btw

[Sheodir]

This is the worst thread on this channel
it's so bad it turned space panda into some weirdo religious dude

[oranges]

can someone shorten it and give a tLDR?

[Sheodir]

can someone shorten it and give a tLDR?

complaining about murderboners and wordless antags trying their hardest to just make everyone go horizontal instead of roleplaying is bad because yadda yadda conflict makes roleplay interesting and thus this means we should be ok with some guy entirely ignoring dialogue or context and just silently shooting everyone with a big gun

EDIT: also someone legit defending the engaging gameplay and roleplay potential of blob

[Kel]

I swear to god people have lost the grasp on the concept of RP almost entirely. Nobody in any of the servers marches around and treats the game like second life. Everyone plays in character. Everybody reacts to actions that are happening before their eyes- as if they were there. What is different between MRP and LRP? Well, low RP back in the day was a very generous way to say roleplaying was optional. people would talk about their real life in game as if their spacemans were just avatars in a social MMO. MRP had the expectation of you staying in character the entire time no matter what. we've literally always done that. the only thing that's changed here is how people roleplay. A lot more people take an antisocial approach (yes being antisocial in character is still roleplaying), and a lot more people are funny jokester memers. This and always will be a community issue and never a rules issue or a code issue. Be the change you want to see, dont spout memes constantly in game anymore and actually type to people occasionally.

[oranges]

tg was always MRP, manuel just has more story, it should really be called the story mode server.

[Space Panda]

I swear to god people have lost the grasp on the concept of RP almost entirely. Nobody in any of the servers marches around and treats the game like second life. Everyone plays in character. Everybody reacts to actions that are happening before their eyes- as if they were there. What is different between MRP and LRP? Well, low RP back in the day was a very generous way to say roleplaying was optional. people would talk about their real life in game as if their spacemans were just avatars in a social MMO. MRP had the expectation of you staying in character the entire time no matter what. we've literally always done that. the only thing that's changed here is how people roleplay. A lot more people take an antisocial approach (yes being antisocial in character is still roleplaying), and a lot more people are funny jokester memers. This and always will be a community issue and never a rules issue or a code issue. Be the change you want to see, dont spout memes constantly in game anymore and actually type to people occasionally.

I'd say talking only in-character while in-game is the only requirement for Low-rp. Medium-RP means ignoring meta knowledge to a certain extent when making decisions and acting. It means not rushing maintenance to scavenge for shit as an assistant, or not going to medbay and treating your injuries yourself instead of letting a doctor do it. Yes, you can do whatever you feel like (as long as you're not self-antagging, or ignoring your job), but you should let people perform their roles whenever possible. You should not act like you're a person that is an expert in many different areas (even if you are, OOC).

[BONERMASTER]

Important youtube video

I don't like this thread, but I really want to participate in it.

I don't care about this topic, but I have a very vocal opinion about it.

I have not read this thread, but I have a very good understanding of it.

Hmmm, hmm, mhmmmmm, hmmm, hmmmmmmm...

*The old man strokes his beard, fascinated by the opinions he just witnessed. He is put into a deep train of thought, so deep, that he appears to not hear or see anything around him.*

[Tarchonvaagh]

QUICK TAKE HIS BAG

[Sheodir]

[snip]


Hmmm, hmm, mhmmmmm, hmmm, hmmmmmmm...

*The old man strokes his beard, fascinated by the opinions he just witnessed. He is put into a deep train of thought, so deep, that he appears to not hear or see anything around him.*

It was moreso we've had this argument before and this whole faux old man in the mountain shtick is kinda funny but I'll bite

Whilst conflict can provide context for roleplaying and people specially on Manuel sometimes are too afraid to make good conflict wordless murderboning provides no interesting context past 'there's a madman in the station and if he sees you there's no time to type fast". I do agree entirely banning generally homicidal people is being too narrow-minded but at the same time as someone who ran a smaller roleplay-focused server that allowed it, it could get pretty repetitive.

Also you're gonna get mocked by the blob complaint because whilst that is a nice concept the mechanics of blob kinda encourage you to drop everything else and go welder it to death the moment it's announced.

[IkeTG]

RP stands for roleplay if anyone was confused like I was when I clicked into this thread

[Tlaltecuhtli]

murderboners exist to give sec a fun job to do, imagine if your job was only dealing with karen jobbers and nigger assistants

[BONERMASTER]

I got a headache, unrelated to anything here, so I'll just be direct. You're getting my point wrong. You probably saw the part I wrote about this game being extremely deadly and that it shouldn't make antags gimp themselves so that everyone else can have fun. But you missed what I wanted to point out with the blob. I said, that the game would be better off with antags like the blob, that necessitate cooperation between players and departments. I did not say that I want more silent d-sword syndies skewering the entire station.

And listen, if the blob can be rushed down 5 minutes in by a bunch of welders or how it's not properly balanced, that's specific to the blob, and there is always room for improvement. What matters is the general principle of this thing and how it impacts the station, and again, if we can refine this and create more antags that follow along the same vein, the rounds won't be monotonous, you won't have excessive downtime of 2-3 hours where literally nothing happens, and your exposure to an antagonist will not instantly gut either of you within seconds.
Sudden death following huge downtime was something I wanted to hammer in a bit more, death is the nature of the game and sometimes unavoidable, but what we can avoid is making players drudge through hours of uneventful labor before that happens.

Alright that's all, are we on the same page now?

[Sheodir]

I got a headache, unrelated to anything here, so I'll just be direct. You're getting my point wrong. You probably saw the part I wrote about this game being extremely deadly and that it shouldn't make antags gimp themselves so that everyone else can have fun. But you missed what I wanted to point out with the blob. I said, that the game would be better off with antags like the blob, that necessitate cooperation between players and departments. I did not say that I want more silent d-sword syndies skewering the entire station.

And listen, if the blob can be rushed down 5 minutes in by a bunch of welders or how it's not properly balanced, that's specific to the blob, and there is always room for improvement. What matters is the general principle of this thing and how it impacts the station, and again, if we can refine this and create more antags that follow along the same vein, the rounds won't be monotonous, you won't have excessive downtime of 2-3 hours where literally nothing happens, and your exposure to an antagonist will not instantly gut either of you within seconds.
Sudden death following huge downtime was something I wanted to hammer in a bit more, death is the nature of the game and sometimes unavoidable, but what we can avoid is making players drudge through hours of uneventful labor before that happens.

Alright that's all, are we on the same page now?

Feel better soon.

I get the general idea, but I feel this isn't something that is only inherent to blob and moreso how antags like the blob end up functioning. If the crew knows there is a threat, they will go shut down that threat nigh immediatelly. This is why blob has no real RP potential, but I don't see an easy fix for it - or any kind of antag with this setup - unless we straight up forbid non combat roles from going after the blob, which would be pretty dull. I feel the 'warns the station it's happening' part is an issue, unless it's just a preliminary warning for the threat itself (see: war ops) but even with that if you stop and try to RP it out people will shove you and call you a nerd.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

playing the game as intended isnt RP more manuel truths at 10 pm

[Timonk]

No

[saprasam]

too long didnt read

[BONERMASTER]

Sorry, did you say something? I didn't read it.

[Flatulent]

how can tg be muslim rp when nobody even prays

[PKPenguin321]

What?

[saprasam]

you good?

[BONERMASTER]

hello??

[BONERMASTER]

[Space Panda]

The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics, instead, are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers.
In a sense, the Beatles are emblematic of the status of rock criticism as a whole: too much attention paid to commercial phenomena and too little to the merits of real musicians. If somebody composes the most divine music but no major label picks him up and sells him around the world, most rock critics will ignore him. If a major label picks up a musician who is as stereotyped as can be but launches her or him worldwide, your average critic will waste rivers of ink on her or him. This is the sad status of rock criticism: rock critics are basically publicists working for major labels, distributors and record stores. They simply highlight what product the music business wants to make money from.

Hopefully, one not-too-distant day, there will be a clear demarcation between a great musician like Tim Buckley, who never sold much, and commercial products like the Beatles. At such a time, rock critics will study their rock history and understand which artists accomplished which musical feat, and which simply exploited it commercially.

Beatles' "Aryan" music removed any trace of black music from rock and roll. It replaced syncopated African rhythm with linear Western melody, and lusty negro attitudes with cute white-kid smiles.

Contemporary musicians never spoke highly of the Beatles, and for good reason. They could never figure out why the Beatles' songs should be regarded more highly than their own. They knew that the Beatles were simply lucky to become a folk phenomenon (thanks to "Beatlemania", which had nothing to do with their musical merits). That phenomenon kept alive interest in their (mediocre) musical endeavours to this day. Nothing else grants the Beatles more attention than, say, the Kinks or the Rolling Stones. There was nothing intrinsically better in the Beatles' music. Ray Davies of the Kinks was certainly a far better songwriter than Lennon & McCartney. The Stones were certainly much more skilled musicians than the 'Fab Four'. And Pete Townshend was a far more accomplished composer, capable of entire operas such as "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia"; not to mention the far greater British musicians who followed them in subsequent decades or the US musicians themselves who initially spearheaded what the Beatles merely later repackaged to the masses.

The Beatles sold a lot of records not because they were the greatest musicians but simply because their music was easy to sell to the masses: it had no difficult content, it had no technical innovations, it had no creative depth. They wrote a bunch of catchy 3-minute ditties and they were photogenic. If somebody had not invented "Beatlemania" in 1963, you would not have wasted five minutes of your time reading these pages about such a trivial band.

???

[BONERMASTER]

The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics, instead, are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers.
In a sense, the Beatles are emblematic of the status of rock criticism as a whole: too much attention paid to commercial phenomena and too little to the merits of real musicians. If somebody composes the most divine music but no major label picks him up and sells him around the world, most rock critics will ignore him. If a major label picks up a musician who is as stereotyped as can be but launches her or him worldwide, your average critic will waste rivers of ink on her or him. This is the sad status of rock criticism: rock critics are basically publicists working for major labels, distributors and record stores. They simply highlight what product the music business wants to make money from.

Hopefully, one not-too-distant day, there will be a clear demarcation between a great musician like Tim Buckley, who never sold much, and commercial products like the Beatles. At such a time, rock critics will study their rock history and understand which artists accomplished which musical feat, and which simply exploited it commercially.

Beatles' "Aryan" music removed any trace of black music from rock and roll. It replaced syncopated African rhythm with linear Western melody, and lusty negro attitudes with cute white-kid smiles.

Contemporary musicians never spoke highly of the Beatles, and for good reason. They could never figure out why the Beatles' songs should be regarded more highly than their own. They knew that the Beatles were simply lucky to become a folk phenomenon (thanks to "Beatlemania", which had nothing to do with their musical merits). That phenomenon kept alive interest in their (mediocre) musical endeavours to this day. Nothing else grants the Beatles more attention than, say, the Kinks or the Rolling Stones. There was nothing intrinsically better in the Beatles' music. Ray Davies of the Kinks was certainly a far better songwriter than Lennon & McCartney. The Stones were certainly much more skilled musicians than the 'Fab Four'. And Pete Townshend was a far more accomplished composer, capable of entire operas such as "Tommy" and "Quadrophenia"; not to mention the far greater British musicians who followed them in subsequent decades or the US musicians themselves who initially spearheaded what the Beatles merely later repackaged to the masses.

The Beatles sold a lot of records not because they were the greatest musicians but simply because their music was easy to sell to the masses: it had no difficult content, it had no technical innovations, it had no creative depth. They wrote a bunch of catchy 3-minute ditties and they were photogenic. If somebody had not invented "Beatlemania" in 1963, you would not have wasted five minutes of your time reading these pages about such a trivial band.

They were the worst musicians in the world. They were no-playing motherfuckers. Paul was the worst bass player I ever heard. And Ringo? Don’t even talk about it. I remember once we were in the studio with George Martin, and Ringo had taken three hours for a four-bar thing he was trying to fix on a song. He couldn’t get it. We said, “Mate, why don’t you get some lager and lime, some shepherd’s pie, and take an hour-and-a-half and relax a little bit.” So he did, and we called Ronnie Verrell, a jazz drummer. Ronnie came in for 15 minutes and tore it up. Ringo comes back and says, “George, can you play it back for me one more time?” So George did, and Ringo says, “That didn’t sound so bad.” And I said, “Yeah, motherfucker because it ain’t you.” Great guy, though.

He was supposed to play on my album and he chickened out. He was nervous to play with Toots Thielemans, Herbie Hancock, Hubert Laws, Roland Kirk — those are some scary motherfuckers. Toots was one of the greatest soloists that ever fucking lived. The cats on my records were the baddest cats in the world and Hendrix didn’t want to play with them. Rock ain’t nothing but a white version of rhythm and blues, motherfucker. You know, I met Paul McCartney when he was 21. Yeah, man. I went on a trip on his yacht, and he had David Crosby, Joe Walsh, Sean Lennon — all those crazy motherfuckers. Then on the last two days, Stevie Wonder came on with his band and made Paul come up and play with him — he’s good, man.

It’s still fucked up. 1964, when I was in Vegas, there were places I wasn’t supposed to go because I was black, but Frank [Sinatra] fixed that for me. It takes individual efforts like that to change things. It takes white people to say to other white people, “Do you really want to live as a racist? Is that really what you believe?” But every place is different. When I go to Dublin, Bono makes me stay at his castle because Ireland is so racist. Bono’s my brother, man. He named his son after me. Yes, sir. Twelve years ago. Tommy Hilfiger, who was working with my daughter Kidada, said, “Ivanka wants to have dinner with you.” I said, “No problem. She’s a fine motherfucker.” She had the most beautiful legs I ever saw in my life. Wrong father, though. Greedy, man. Greedy. “Don’t Stop ’Til You Get Enough” — Greg Phillinganes wrote the c section. Michael should’ve given him 10 percent of the song. Wouldn’t do it. I hate to get into this publicly, but Michael stole a lot of stuff. He stole a lot of songs. [Donna Summer’s] “State of Independence” and “Billie Jean.” The notes don’t lie, man. He was as Machiavellian as they come. No, man. I know too much about it. I knew Romano Mussolini, the jazz piano player, the son of Benito Mussolini. We used to jam all night. And he’d tell me about where the Catholics were coming from. The Catholics have a religion based on fear, smoke, and murder. And the biggest gimmick in the world is confession: “You tell me what you did wrong and it’ll be okay.” Come on. And almost everywhere you go in the world, the biggest structures are the Catholic churches. It’s money, man. It’s fucked up

hmmmm, hmmmm...