can we nerf jihadi borgs in some way please

Aeri · Post by **Aeri** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:32 pm #608431

"What the hell are you talking about?" you may ask.

Okay, let me explain, I've been on both sides of this coin and I have to admit it's bullshit no matter which side I look at it from.

1. There is a stationwide threat like spiders, de-humaned nukies, etc
2. An engieborg drags a welding tank to the threat
3. Sawarim_Djihad.mp3
4. The borg just walks away and gets welded back to full integrity with minimal risk to itself

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:45 pm #608433

Aeri · Post by **Aeri** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:51 pm #608434

Agux909 wrote:Why?

Because borgs can just suicide bomb whoever they want (lawset permitting) and not have to suffer the suicide part of the suicide bombing.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:55 pm #608435

borgs can not use an abstract potential for human harm to ignore law 2. This is why AIs that refuse to open eva under the claim that "somebody could need those supplies and be harmed by not having them" get job banned.

I see no reason this couldn't apply to law 3.

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:18 pm #608436

MrStonedOne wrote:borgs can not use an abstract potential for human harm to ignore law 2. This is why AIs that refuse to open eva under the claim that "somebody could need those supplies and be harmed by not having them" get job banned.

I see no reason this couldn't apply to law 3.

If nukies and/or other threats are declared non-human and are actively harming humans law 1 overrides law 3. A borg can find it reasonable to welderbomb a non-human threat in order to decrease active human harm on the station, prioritizing such action over their own survival. This flexibility on gameplay is why borgs are players and not mobs moving by logical programming.

Aeri wrote:
Agux909 wrote:Why?
Because borgs can just suicide bomb whoever they want (lawset permitting) and not have to suffer the suicide part of the suicide bombing.

Well... you are the one calling it suicide bombing. It's more about your own semantic preference, since I've seen most people (me included) calling it welderbombing. It's not written anywhere that it has to imply actual suicide.

You're a cyborg after all and one of the advantages is that you're more durable?

terranaut · Post by **terranaut** » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:20 pm #608437

MrStonedOne wrote:borgs can not use an abstract potential for human harm to ignore law 2. This is why AIs that refuse to open eva under the claim that "somebody could need those supplies and be harmed by not having them" get job banned.

I see no reason this couldn't apply to law 3.

as time passes the likelihood of such an event causing human harm approaches 1 and realistically the time needed for it to actually come to pass is relatively short

Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:46 pm

borgs are glass cannons by design. just get a flash, nerd.
A: This also requires no humans to be near which is rare.
B: What should we change?

Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:56 am

taking bets for "Was killed by a borg with a welding tank" now

Borgs already have fairly major weaknesses - a flash is an unavoidable stun, a flashbang is an impressively large AoE unavoidable stun, both can be chained indefinitely(tm), emps fuck borgs through walls, and most importantly their laws *exist*.
Attaching additional weaknesses seems like piling on more just because madcuzbad.

Going from a different angle, instead of preventing this via gameplay

and preventing it via laws or administration, why?
Unless welderbombing's going to cause human harm, you're preventing it by bombing spiders with your neato welder tanks. Making administrative rules against it also screams "mad", because unless you're a spider (fuck spiders i HATE spiders they're insanely overtuned right now with how damn easy they can snowball) you've still got a decent host of methods of telling the borg to eat shit - shoot it while it's trying to run at you, run away from it, or any of the other options instead of "stand there and take a welding bomb to the fucking face".

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:58 pm

Omega_DarkPotato wrote:taking bets for "Was killed by a borg with a welding tank" now

Borgs already have fairly major weaknesses - a flash is an unavoidable stun, a flashbang is an impressively large AoE unavoidable stun, both can be chained indefinitely(tm), emps fuck borgs through walls, and most importantly their laws *exist*.
Attaching additional weaknesses seems like piling on more just because madcuzbad.

Going from a different angle, instead of preventing this via gameplay and preventing it via laws or administration, why?
Unless welderbombing's going to cause human harm, you're preventing it by bombing spiders with your neato welder tanks. Making administrative rules against it also screams "mad", because unless you're a spider (fuck spiders i HATE spiders they're insanely overtuned right now with how damn easy they can snowball) you've still got a decent host of methods of telling the borg to eat shit - shoot it while it's trying to run at you, run away from it, or any of the other options instead of "stand there and take a welding bomb to the fucking face".

as I card-carrying founding member of the silicon defense force, i do have to point out that welderbombing is a favorite crew-aligned borg strat because it's so fast, aoe, and violent that it sidesteps a lot of the borg counters when delivered from short range (because they're specialised options and arent the ones you have out while fighting the rest of the crew, unlike when the crew is fighting borgs). It's a super powerful ambush strat that's uniquely strong when fighting on the side of the crew. It's not unavoidable gg like some people whine but it is pretty devastating against any antag who's become pinned and can't flee fast enough

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:17 pm #608536

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:taking bets for "Was killed by a borg with a welding tank" now

Borgs already have fairly major weaknesses - a flash is an unavoidable stun, a flashbang is an impressively large AoE unavoidable stun, both can be chained indefinitely(tm), emps fuck borgs through walls, and most importantly their laws *exist*.
Attaching additional weaknesses seems like piling on more just because madcuzbad.

Going from a different angle, instead of preventing this via gameplay and preventing it via laws or administration, why?
Unless welderbombing's going to cause human harm, you're preventing it by bombing spiders with your neato welder tanks. Making administrative rules against it also screams "mad", because unless you're a spider (fuck spiders i HATE spiders they're insanely overtuned right now with how damn easy they can snowball) you've still got a decent host of methods of telling the borg to eat shit - shoot it while it's trying to run at you, run away from it, or any of the other options instead of "stand there and take a welding bomb to the fucking face".
as I card-carrying founding member of the silicon defense force, i do have to point out that welderbombing is a favorite crew-aligned borg strat because it's so fast, aoe, and violent that it sidesteps a lot of the borg counters when delivered from short range (because they're specialised options and arent the ones you have out while fighting the rest of the crew, unlike when the crew is fighting borgs). It's a super powerful ambush strat that's uniquely strong when fighting on the side of the crew. It's not unavoidable gg like some people whine but it is pretty devastating against any antag who's become pinned and can't flee fast enough

Yes and this is good. Learn to flee quickly am I right?

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:59 pm #608542

"Flee quickly" is an interesting solution when borgs are generally at least as fast as a carbon, don't suffer damage-derived slowdown, don't take any sort of significant stun from explosions (just the knockback), and can force doors without any wires cut both remotely and significantly faster than carbons.

If welder tanks provided slowdown to carbons and silicons on drag, that would make an interesting nerf, because it would mean you have to push from behind to go full speed, meaning someone with a gun can just shoot it to set it off early.

It might have some knock-on effects in Cult (holy water tanks) and Blob situations? Blob will probably be fine but I'm veeeery hesitant to suggest anything that might make cult even stronger, though... honestly, a holy water nerf won't make a difference, because if holy water tanks come up at all, the cult is already probably losing.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:47 pm #608597

Rohen_Tahir · Post by **Rohen_Tahir** » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:59 pm #608606

No
[youtube]29yIPRxqvOs[/youtube]

Tlaltecuhtli · Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:35 pm

add emp spiders then (i bet you wont)

Super Aggro Crag · Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:13 am

im sick of borgs blowing themselves up with weldy bombs and injuring me and shrugging it off cuz im playing a purple skelly when blowing urself up is potentially a law 3 violation

Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:18 am

another symptom of borgs not having damage slowdown

Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:47 am

WineAllWine wrote:borgs are glass cannons by design. just get a flash, nerd.

Why do people believe this when they have technically no critical state, immunity to punches, immunity to stamina weapons (the majority of weapons crew have that aren't improvised objects), and have immunity to the vast majority of environmental threats and several weapons. The fact that they can welder bomb is literally due to the fact that they are more durable than a person. A flash isn't anything special if you just look back a year when everyone was vulnerable to a flash as much as a borg. The limitation was an inability to evade the joust via shades.

There isn't any deliberate consistent design, just a lot of bikeshedding about what the borg weaknesses and strengths should be.

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:50 am #608658

PKPenguin321 wrote:another symptom of borgs not having damage slowdown

And being balanced around stuns

Post by **Mothblocks** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:54 am #608665

it would take me two hours to finish my borg damage slowdown pr i just never got around to it because the beautiful code i wanted to do it with kept hitting DCS bugs

carshalash · Post by **carshalash** » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:08 am #608671

Super Aggro Crag wrote:im sick of borgs blowing themselves up with weldy bombs and injuring me and shrugging it off cuz im playing a purple skelly when blowing urself up is potentially a law 3 violation

Purple skeletons deserve worse.

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:11 pm #608779

Rohen_Tahir · Post by **Rohen_Tahir** » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:55 pm #608780

technokek wrote:Since everyone here agrees that this is fine and Borg's should be actually buffed a bit can someone tell me how to lock this thread?

1. Save the following as a file named "epicbillgatesbackdoor.bat":

:start
echo https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29541
ping localhost
start epicbillgatesbackdoor.bat
goto start

2. Windows+R
3. Type "shell:common startup"
4. Place a shortcut to your file in the folder that appears
5. Restart computer
6. You are now ddosing this thread. Hard.

Flatulent · Post by **Flatulent** » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:16 pm #608789

if you don’t want to get jihaded use portable flashers

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:39 am #608898

if u thought the hollocaust was bad u shouldve worn a gas mask lmao

but no don't nerf borgs their modules deactivate with damage nowadays although the self-heal some (most? all?) seem to possess in the form of a welder is fucked up i remember it was removed at one point but it made its return

Flatulent · Post by **Flatulent** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:48 am #608904

cacogen wrote:if u thought the hollocaust was bad u shouldve worn a gas mask lmao

but no don't nerf borgs their modules deactivate with damage nowadays although the self-heal some (most? all?) seem to possess in the form of a welder is fucked up i remember it was removed at one point but it made its return

or maybe leave germany and it’s immediate neighborhood

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:39 pm #608938

Rohen_Tahir · Post by **Rohen_Tahir** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm #608942

technokek wrote:
cacogen wrote:if u thought the hollocaust was bad u shouldve worn a gas mask lmao

but no don't nerf borgs their modules deactivate with damage nowadays although the self-heal some (most? all?) seem to possess in the form of a welder is fucked up i remember it was removed at one point but it made its return
Only 2 Borg types possess self heal, Engineering and Mining (only emergency welder). No other Borg has the ability to heal himself. Also Borgs can't heal burn damage. The self heal upgrade enables all Borg's to heal themselves like the self heal mech upgrade, it's very slow and takes a lot of energy.

*borgs

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:29 pm #608946

Super Aggro Crag · Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:50 pm

carshalash wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:im sick of borgs blowing themselves up with weldy bombs and injuring me and shrugging it off cuz im playing a purple skelly when blowing urself up is potentially a law 3 violation
Purple skeletons deserve worse.

Get over here i'll genocide your sperm count with my spicy green aura

cocothegogo · Post by **cocothegogo** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 pm #608962

skill issue

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:09 pm #608963

what is a skill issue

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:25 pm #608965

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:01 am #608989

i don't know what it is

technokek · Post by **technokek** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:16 am #609027

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:30 pm #609085

Rohen_Tahir · Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:45 pm

cacogen wrote:help

You need help? That's a skill issue.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:45 am #609111

skills

Jonathan Gupta · Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:28 pm

cacogen wrote:skills

You need skills? That's a skill issue.