Tramstation is way more popular than people seem to think.

[WineAllWine]

it's the third most popular station after Meta and Delta: https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltally.php?id=234

Among Admins, it's SECOND https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... ion=%2Bban

[Agux909]

Memes are popular.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

admin finds out people like to troll

[Pandarsenic]

So TramStation manages to pull ahead of... Kilo and IceBox.

Spoiler:

Kilo: Not bad IMO, but undeniably an oddball map. Very strange maint, very cramped, does not scale up terribly gracefully. Everyone knows that a vote for Kilo at even mid-pop is a bit of a troll vote right now.

IceBox: Actual hellhole. Constant wolf B&E at botany, unless the rework of the service area finally fixed that shit. Near-inevitable total failure of the main hallways to firelocks. Much like with Tram, multi-Z makes it genuinely painful to find where mice chewed wires. Having an actual atmosphere outside makes it harder to do some ‼Fun‼ setups in Engineering. The presence of Actual Gravity outside the station sucks for Engineers, Nuke Ops, and anyone who tries to repair a hull breach (or gets bombed) and gets to immediately fall through the floor and get their corpse stuffed in a Snow Legion forever

[Tlaltecuhtli]

firelocks are an ez fix, just shut off environment power on all hall apcs round start (takes like 3 min)

[MMMiracles]

people trying to say it 'only' beat ice and kilo when it was only 29 votes behind delta in first-picks for round 3

be afraid, tram haters

[Agux909]

people trying to say it 'only' beat ice and kilo when it was only 29 votes behind delta in first-picks for round 3

be afraid, tram haters

People straight up hating on tram is also mostly memes. I think there's enough care for the core idea of the map which is an actual creative breakthrough of this 20y o game.

It's more about "how better the map could be" than "this shit has no place in /tg/ I fucking hate it".

I'll quote myself since I came up with some ideas but not on the feedback thread.

Spoiler:

1 Upper floor-north side= swap service/botany for bridge/sec
2 Lower floor-south side= swap engi/atmos for library/recreational/chapel
3 double the space between stations and put some hazards down there. Mobs, acid, radiation leak, dunno.
4 make the rails be top ones (not visible) and then make it so you can't build over the empty space between stations, hard code it. Only spots without a void are now the bridges to cross.

There you go. Now:
.Service is in between the stations, and in front of medbay, way more transited by natural consequence
.Medbay has recreational under it, which means that if it's bombed you fall into an all access area.
.Sec and Bridge are quickly accessible by late heads/officers, and is closer to engi, which should make it more power efficient?
.Tram is infinitely more appealing and can't destroy you unless there's no gravity. If you don't want to take the tram you gotta run through a hazardous, dangerous under-passage which is now double the length and filled with simplemobs that obstruct your way and can kill you (like the ones in Kilo), or invest double the usual time deconstructing the sides to make hallways.

These are just some ideas of many out there, and not necessarily the best/most convenient ones. But the general gist of the complaints I've seen are related to layout and how tram isn't all that useful.

As I said in a previous post of mine, the novelty of the tram itself wears off sooner or later, and then you are left off with a flawed station that doesn't feel right. Changes of dept layout have been a step in the right direction, but there are problems still present. The post that prompted me to list ideas identifies some of them:

Spoiler:

The main problem with tram is just how inconvenient it is to actually use the fuckin tram to travel. No one likes to sit and wait for 30 seconds before they can move to a different department when they could just walk there in the same amount of time.

The other problem is that you can’t cross the tramtracks easily without risking getting absolutely mauled by the tram. If there’s no gravity it’s instant death. If the massive hole that runs through the middle of the station is patched up with a catwalk, it’s instant death. And it doesn’t help tram has power problems that result in places like permabrig being unpowered very early on in the round. New players have an even worse time, since they aren’t as adept and regularly will just end up round-removed on the lower Z. It’s not a fun mechanic, really.

You know there is a problem if every single round people have entire projects modifying the map to make it somewhat more navigable (I.e., they build disposals shoots taking you from department to department, or cut hallways through the rock to allow people to walk if they choose, etc.)

It’s missing some things - HoS has no ID modification console, yet two security records consoles side by side in his office.

Finally, the fact that service is in an entirely separate section of the station from essentially everything else except dorms, combined with the low efficiency travel, and the fact bar for instance is on a lower Z, makes it extremely impractical for drawing crowds of people or having people “just stop by.”

So no, I don't want tram removed, I'd just like it to be more than a tram and a station around it

[Sacko]

The silent majority will always prevail!

[Stickymayhem]

Visibility of complaints skews heavily towards old fucks like me that are always dicking around on the forums and have nostalgic ideas about how the game should be but I think we've seen from literally every instance of polling players who actually play on the fucking servers that people like me are not reflective of the general consensus

That doesn't mean we can't bring good ideas to a newer active population that genuinely doesn't know how the game was 3-5 years ago, but we have to acknowledge that we're not the mainstream

It's like when they entire left was absolutely hyped and certain that EVERYONE loved bernie and bernie was going to annihilate the democrats and then it turned out the whole country didn't care. We exist in a bubble

Spoiler:

I'm hitting myself hard here but I do really like tram and novel ideas like that, I just think like any big boundary pusher it's going to take months of refinement like meta had

[Agux909]

Shut up Sticky you don't even play that much, don't put everyone in the same bag you're in

[Flatulent]

people trying to say it 'only' beat ice and kilo when it was only 29 votes behind delta in first-picks for round 3

be afraid, tram haters

its a novelty for many people right now but will soon die just like kilo.

[MMMiracles]

tfw tram has been a FOTM since early march

[cacogen]

firelocks are an ez fix, just shut off environment power on all hall apcs round start (takes like 3 min)

You can use a multitool on fire alarms to turn off their thermal sensor which I imagine does the same thing and is faster

[Agux909]

firelocks are an ez fix, just shut off environment power on all hall apcs round start (takes like 3 min)

You can use a multitool on fire alarms to turn off their thermal sensor which I imagine does the same thing and is faster

Does this only work if you do it before the alarms are triggered? Because I've tried it a couple days ago and the alarms kept going off and closing the firedoors. I think the only difference was that the red light wouldn't trigger.

[Naloac]

tbh I dont like it cos I feel like it sacrifices alot just to have the tram. yeah it does fine in the overall poll for first picks but even then its against box, which was about to be removed before it got the ice added to it to try and give it SOMETHING else. tram is a fun gimmick map and nothing much else imo. its the same as donut people like it because its a meme to like it

[Super Aggro Crag]

I like tram
I like icebox
Simple as

[NamelessFairy]

tbh I dont like it cos I feel like it sacrifices alot just to have the tram. yeah it does fine in the overall poll for first picks but even then its against box, which was about to be removed before it got the ice added to it to try and give it SOMETHING else. tram is a fun gimmick map and nothing much else imo. its the same as donut people like it because its a meme to like it

Don't bring donut into this, donut was one of my favorite maps

[Agux909]

tbh I dont like it cos I feel like it sacrifices alot just to have the tram. yeah it does fine in the overall poll for first picks but even then its against box, which was about to be removed before it got the ice added to it to try and give it SOMETHING else. tram is a fun gimmick map and nothing much else imo. its the same as donut people like it because its a meme to like it

Incorrect. I like donut unironically, and I want it back.

[MrStonedOne]

Among Admins, it's SECOND https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... ion=%2Bban

Filter panel is admin only so players when clicking that only see the overall results.

Here is a permalink to the filtered version:

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/irvpolltal ... djew%3D%3D

[MrStonedOne]

Total vote value tells a different story.

Among^{I swear to go if you make the joke i will end you} people who didn't put it in their top spot, it was ranked much lower then the other maps on average.

The way the total vote value works, is that the top pick is treated as being worth an amount of points equal to the amount of choices (so in this case, 5), and each spot below that is worth half the amount of points as the previous spot. (so 2nd pick would be 2.5, and 3rd would be 1.25)

[WineAllWine]

tbh I dont like it cos I feel like it sacrifices alot just to have the tram. yeah it does fine in the overall poll for first picks but even then its against box, which was about to be removed before it got the ice added to it to try and give it SOMETHING else. tram is a fun gimmick map and nothing much else imo. its the same as donut people like it because its a meme to like it

Don't bring donut into this, donut was one of my favorite maps

Strong agree, donut was great

[Sacko]

You can't make a logical appeal to why tram is the best it just is. All these forum posters can keep on dancing around the facts. But this train won't stop chugging. Hop on before you are left behind!!!!

[MMMiracles]

tbh I dont like it cos I feel like it sacrifices alot just to have the tram. yeah it does fine in the overall poll for first picks but even then its against box, which was about to be removed before it got the ice added to it to try and give it SOMETHING else. tram is a fun gimmick map and nothing much else imo. its the same as donut people like it because its a meme to like it

Don't bring donut into this, donut was one of my favorite maps

Strong agree, donut was great

convince the playerbase that diagonal halls aren't a physical manifestation of the devil please

[Flatulent]

you can’t because diagonal halls ARE cancer because of how tiles are positioned and how our movement works.
have you ever tried slipping someone on old donut halls? and I can probably say with certainty that hitting a throw or just shooting people with lasers in a diagonal hall is MUCH easier as people move way more predictably.

[Pandarsenic]

Tram is mostly frustrating me because it's a cool idea but it has a few frequently-raised issues with its core usability (especially the tiny maintenance and that when sabotage causes SM delamination or Singuloose, they literally cannot affect the upper level, where... most people... are...)

I'll take Tram before IceBox any day, though, because IceBox is by miles the least usable map.

[sinfulbliss]

Total vote value tells a different story.

Among^{I swear to go if you make the joke i will end you} people who didn't put it in their top spot, it was ranked much lower then the other maps on average.

The way the total vote value works, is that the top pick is treated as being worth an amount of points equal to the amount of choices (so in this case, 5), and each spot below that is worth half the amount of points as the previous spot. (so 2nd pick would be 2.5, and 3rd would be 1.25)

Yeah this says a lot, I think this is because during playervotes Tram immediately gets like 3-4 votes for the "LOL TRAM!!" meme, then a bunch of other people piggyback on it and it wins. Aside from that specific scenario it's usually not even considered so maybe that explains why it's lowest in total vote value.

[ArcaneDefence]

The best thing tram has done is further expand upon multi z mechanics by being an actual multi z experience, rather than multi z bolted on top of a map that is already a complete single z experience.

The tram itself is, to me, an afterthought there. It serves as a mechanic to get people to interact with multi z, and in that it's brilliant.
It's a shard of reality of the pipe dream of having shuttles actually move, and for that I love it.
Tram's done a lot for giving us things to improve and a unique experience from the other maps, and I'm glad to have been active when we first got it.

I look forward to more people building up on multi z mechanics and helping polish out the flaws that have become baked into a game focused entirely on one elevation level.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

firelocks are an ez fix, just shut off environment power on all hall apcs round start (takes like 3 min)

You can use a multitool on fire alarms to turn off their thermal sensor which I imagine does the same thing and is faster

Does this only work if you do it before the alarms are triggered? Because I've tried it a couple days ago and the alarms kept going off and closing the firedoors. I think the only difference was that the red light wouldn't trigger.

you have to multitool every firealarm in the room which is way slower than just shutting it off by apc

[Flatulent]

firelocks exist for a reason, breaking them all is really unwise

[Not-Dorsidarf]

firelocks exist for a reason, breaking them all is really unwise

If only that reason didn't seem to be "Shutting down the entire science wing permanently because toxins let off a small fart in their antechamber"

[wesoda25]

The problem with atmos is that it can easily become an annoyance, and one of the only things keeping that annoyance from developing into something deadly is something also super fucking annoying. YOU CANT WIN!!

[Flatulent]

firelocks exist for a reason, breaking them all is really unwise

If only that reason didn't seem to be "Shutting down the entire science wing permanently because toxins let off a small fart in their antechamber"

or we have a breach and all of station is going to be uninhabitable very soon
see: half of kilo rounds involving most of the crewmembers dying fron breaches

[Agux909]

Firelocks are annoying everywhere in fiction, they're supposed to be like that. It's not a code issue, a mechanic issue, nor a skill issue.

Listen, they usually separate the hero and the damsel in distress from each other, for the hero to scream "I'll catch up, don't worry about me, you go ahead!", then die and never reunite with the endebted dame. And those firelocks can't be opened with a crowbar!
Yes, those firelocks killed the hero! But we don't hear characters complaining about firelocks in movies do we?

Firelocks are a necessary evil, especially in such a setting as the one existing in ss13.

I hate firelocks.

[cacogen]

Firelocks are annoying everywhere in fiction, they're supposed to be like that.

They were never designed with fastmos in mind. The necessity of getting a crowbar roundstart to reduce them to a mild annoyance instead of something that can get in your way for minutes every round while you find one is stupid. You should just be able to open them by hand after a short delay. I did try making a PR for this earlier in the year but LemonInTheDark closed it and it seems no other solutions have been made.

[Pandarsenic]

Another codebase has or had a thing that you could swipe your ID on a firelock to open it. Would be nice.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

on the other hand the ai/atmos techs really need a way to lock shut a firelock so it cant instantly be opened by any bozo with tools for a little while, to stop people prying open doors into bomb sites and such while you're trying to rally engineers to come fix it because they GOTTA GO THRU EVERY SHUT DOOR!!

[cacogen]

You could just use an atmos holofan over the firelocks, which would have the added bonus of keeping them open.

[Flatulent]

you have two atmos holofans each can create 6(?) airlocks