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I think it kinda hits it on the head that no matter how studiously law obedient players get, a "security" borg just isnt gonna fly well, because borgs whole shebang is "Does department job better but only in a narrow focused way"... and for a sec borg that means combat. And a borg that is good at combat is a weapon pointed at everyone else because unlike security, borgs are not sec-aligned and are easily turned bad, in addition to being roundstart antag capable.confused rock wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:00 pm I've played servers which keep secborgs, servers which replaced it with a forensics cyborg that's supposed to avoid combat, and a server with a real weird hybrid ai-secborg thing. I'd say not really; hell, even peacekeeper borgs are a shitty meme borg more than anything. It's a shame, since secborgs are cool and I miss seeing their design. It's just that borg laws don't work well with security *and* the balance of cyborgs also don't work well with security.
Well why not have the sec borg act more like the detective?Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:48 am I think the real issue is how stun-based combat used to/currently works and cyborgs being immune to the usual arsenal. Say we re-add secborgs exactly as we left them with no changes, so they'll have a stun baton and disabler. Any criminal that doesn't have a flash is essentially screwed by the existence of the borg because there's no way way without a hardstun they can do 200 damage to the cyborg to kill without it stunning them or leaving the fight. Even with a flash, secborg's disabler essentially spells doom for their foe since they can fight at long range and still be effective (something no other borg can do, important to note for later) while their adversaries most likely do not have access to a ranged physical damage attack. Because the flash is the only thing stopping a secborg and it has a tool to completely circumvent getting in melee range unlike most borgs, secborgs are extremely difficult to win against and extremely easy to perform well with. This doesn't even take into account the borg having a human co-worker with it to shore up its weaknesses.
So pretty much if you were to remove the disabler, then you're left with a borg with one of the best melee weapons in the game and a lack of a ranged utility outside of screwing with machines. This would essentially be a "do you have a flash?" check for the criminal because otherwise they just lose since the borg otherwise can't be stunned by common means. This however carries over to pretty much all cyborgs, so arguably this would make sense among the current cyborg line-up? I think one could argue the case, but then the existence of the secborg essentially just means that there would be a lot more cases for people to see how stupid linear cyborg combat is even compared to even an already stupid system of two-hit batonning carbons, and then they would complain. Their complaints wouldn't be invalid either, but yeah, having secborgs back would lead to more unsavory encounters with borg combat since we'd be adding back a role which will try to force it as much of it as possible onto people.
I do think, however, if those cyborg changes that existed then didn't ever came back around, a melee-only version of the secborg could one day be acceptable since criminals would have other ways to stop the insurmountable borg other than having a flash or dying. Of course, you'd probably have to ban a good handful of shitters from using secborg, but a good player who understands what asimov means to them as both borg and security member could exist without being too awful. The one thing I would note is having an asimov borg always with them might actually make security more mad then glad though, because it'll entail a lot of sec members trying to kill say a heretic or cult member before the secborg whisks them away to safety because they're human (something I do as a borg even with nuke ops, to the annoyance of some). That's also not even considering that same scenario where the sec member isn't human but the perp is, either.
this is more to do with the forensics gameplay being pretty bad, so detective tends to act like a security officer with a different uniformKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:19 pm i like the idea of a forensics borg as our actual fucking detectives never seem to do shit
on sybil at least
I would play the fuck out of a forsensics Borg, but I also play virologist a lot so /shrugoranges wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:16 pmthis is more to do with the forensics gameplay being pretty bad, so detective tends to act like a security officer with a different uniformKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:19 pm i like the idea of a forensics borg as our actual fucking detectives never seem to do shit
on sybil at least
we finally killed secborgs down thereOmega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:50 am Well there IS always a downstream with secborgs, but that downstream is skyrat.
Your choice forums man
Those are one of the borgs I was referring to having. It.. avoids the direct issue of it being unfair to fight a borg which has a baton, and nothing else. it still acts like sec to the best of its ability, being able to let sec into the armory and other places they shouldn't be, flashing baddies, etc. Forensics is barely a job so all it can do is just be unarmed secborg.Helios wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:52 pmWell why not have the sec borg act more like the detective?Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:48 am I think the real issue is how stun-based combat used to/currently works and cyborgs being immune to the usual arsenal. Say we re-add secborgs exactly as we left them with no changes, so they'll have a stun baton and disabler. Any criminal that doesn't have a flash is essentially screwed by the existence of the borg because there's no way way without a hardstun they can do 200 damage to the cyborg to kill without it stunning them or leaving the fight. Even with a flash, secborg's disabler essentially spells doom for their foe since they can fight at long range and still be effective (something no other borg can do, important to note for later) while their adversaries most likely do not have access to a ranged physical damage attack. Because the flash is the only thing stopping a secborg and it has a tool to completely circumvent getting in melee range unlike most borgs, secborgs are extremely difficult to win against and extremely easy to perform well with. This doesn't even take into account the borg having a human co-worker with it to shore up its weaknesses.
So pretty much if you were to remove the disabler, then you're left with a borg with one of the best melee weapons in the game and a lack of a ranged utility outside of screwing with machines. This would essentially be a "do you have a flash?" check for the criminal because otherwise they just lose since the borg otherwise can't be stunned by common means. This however carries over to pretty much all cyborgs, so arguably this would make sense among the current cyborg line-up? I think one could argue the case, but then the existence of the secborg essentially just means that there would be a lot more cases for people to see how stupid linear cyborg combat is even compared to even an already stupid system of two-hit batonning carbons, and then they would complain. Their complaints wouldn't be invalid either, but yeah, having secborgs back would lead to more unsavory encounters with borg combat since we'd be adding back a role which will try to force it as much of it as possible onto people.
I do think, however, if those cyborg changes that existed then didn't ever came back around, a melee-only version of the secborg could one day be acceptable since criminals would have other ways to stop the insurmountable borg other than having a flash or dying. Of course, you'd probably have to ban a good handful of shitters from using secborg, but a good player who understands what asimov means to them as both borg and security member could exist without being too awful. The one thing I would note is having an asimov borg always with them might actually make security more mad then glad though, because it'll entail a lot of sec members trying to kill say a heretic or cult member before the secborg whisks them away to safety because they're human (something I do as a borg even with nuke ops, to the annoyance of some). That's also not even considering that same scenario where the sec member isn't human but the perp is, either.
Scanning blood to find out who is dead, scan for fingerprints on the laser gun to find out who's it is. Forensics cyborg.
Detective should be able to go into an out of body experience and see the ghostly outlines of a players movement. Like that one static outline hallucination that runs away.oranges wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:16 pmthis is more to do with the forensics gameplay being pretty bad, so detective tends to act like a security officer with a different uniformKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:19 pm i like the idea of a forensics borg as our actual fucking detectives never seem to do shit
on sybil at least
the security "vore dogs" are fine, should be test merged for a month on tgstation to see if its a good alternate to secborg, who knows might be extremely good for the server
they use their second life insect queen OC to comment on things, they are very weird.Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:49 pmI have never seen you before but you make me very uncomfortable.
