/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:19 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

The game can be fun past the 2000 hour barrier, and it doesn't just require antag rolling or becoming an admin/coder/non-player
Roleplay. A lot of the time nobody puts captain priority high, and you can get it consistently. Change your name to something unique and roleplay. Like being Captain Stone Cold, putting on the Championship belt from the vault, and talking about how you are Stomping’ mudholes in those syndi asses and walking ‘em dry.
Or be a HoP named Augustus Caesar. Hire people to make a legion, which is an alternative power centre. Say it's to protect the station from blue level threats, but remember, the legions answer to Caesar, not the Captain. And as HoP you can order all the arms and armor you want from Cargo, who are your subordinates.
There's the classic Clownshop, going clown and running a pawn shop. This has been a good gimmick in a lot of rounds, and the arguments tend to be whether or not the clown shop should sell the Nuclear Authentication Disk to the Syndicate, if they pay enough.
You can change the round, break the monotony singlehandledly, and have other people follow your lead

Posted: **Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:25 pm**

Tldr what's with the image

Posted: **Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:57 pm**

E-Peen
If I have been playing the game for 15 years, I probably have more than 2000 hours

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:48 am**

CPTANT wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:28 am
oranges wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:31 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:23 pm The great "depth" experiment has failed because, at a fundamental level, mechanics can't replace roleplaying in a multiplayer-dependent roleplaying game.
this comment implies we have even begun to try that approach
How else would you describe the changes the chemistry, Toxins, atmos, etc?

They're not the jobs people bring up when the lack of depth is mentioned, it's the other jobs.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:30 am**

oranges wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:48 am
CPTANT wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:28 am
oranges wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:31 pm
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:23 pm The great "depth" experiment has failed because, at a fundamental level, mechanics can't replace roleplaying in a multiplayer-dependent roleplaying game.
this comment implies we have even begun to try that approach
How else would you describe the changes the chemistry, Toxins, atmos, etc?
They're not the jobs people bring up when the lack of depth is mentioned, it's the other jobs.

But these jobs (and others) have obviously increased in complexity and this thread is discussing if it actually made the game better (which I think it didn't). So I think it is good to have the same discussion about what works and what doesn't when increasing job complexity.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:54 am**

complexity isn't depth

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:22 pm**

The whole point is that depth cannot come from PvE, flowcharts and numbers. Just frustration.

The whole beauty of the game was the interactions that played out with humans. Content that is more accessible is better than difficult job sim stuff. What it, in reality, leads to, is just us bypassing it. When the good items get nerfed into joke items and the last of the usable ones are gatekept behind such strict and heavy restrictions (toxins and cores are a great example), it's easier to just buy a desword. Much easier, and more fun. I get 40 minutes with my cool desword instead of having to spend that time fighting a spreadsheet or whatever.

Posted: **Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:17 pm**

depth comes from spare code that you have lying around

Posted: **Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:39 pm**

Depth and Breadth can be used as synonyms. Those can be described as the amount of choices in the game, and the amount of viable choices to the players
So security/antag conflict can be very meta dependent, with many options to hit stuff, but very few viable choices.
Jobs like Botany, Chemistry, cooking or bartending can start off with 10 options, and over the decades SS13 has been around, add more drinks beyond beer, plants beyond watermelons and so on. So piecemeal there are many plants, chems, food and drink for players to learn from the wiki. That type of complexity is not a bad thing, that's choice. We just need to make sure that items have a reason to exist. That Blue tomato can be used viably, so it doesn't just exist as a half step to Blue-space tomato. That chems are not toxin healing but better/burn treatment but worse.
As for the other kind of choice, the meta. I think it's a perennial problem. Players keep optimizing making bombs, and coders keep finding ways to slow them down, so there ends up being a couple viable methods, that you have to execute perfectly because the bomb making meta has evolved so much since the days Cuban Pete walked the halls of SS13. As a perennial problem I'm not sure it can be solved.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:00 am**

I'd say botany is one of the absolute best systems we have in terms of complexity. Nearly every single plant has a use whether its a special trait or chemical or mutation that you could continually find new things to do with the systems but each of those things is only two or three layers deep so you dont spend all round working on one single thing you need to grow like xenobio would

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:17 am**

Yeah botany feels like The Gold Standard of what to aim for in terms of complexity and variety.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:40 am**

I got burnt out a bit, but becoming an admin to act like a dungeon master, using the invisible hand to bring other players joy gives me happiness to continue.

Posted: **Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:04 pm**

A while back I was kind burned out, so I just picked assistant every round and made it my goal to earn/beg/steal enough money to buy the hoverboard then zoomed around the station doing rad flips. Picking a silly meaningless goal that requires other peoples help and playing it for a while is a soul recharger that makes you happy again

Posted: **Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:55 pm**

Helios wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:19 pm Or be a HoP named Augustus Caesar. Hire people to make a legion, which is an alternative power centre. Say it's to protect the station from blue level threats, but remember, the legions answer to Caesar, not the Captain. And as HoP you can order all the arms and armor you want from Cargo, who are your subordinates.

Cargo isn't the subordinate of the HoP anymore

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:14 pm**

I just wanna grill for petesake

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 am**

dont grill pete she gives milk

Posted: **Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:47 am**

Grill Pete he's a griefer and for some reason admins haven't banned him yet

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:51 am**

Hot take, some jobs should be complex and some jobs shouldn’t. Loads of hidden features.

Lastly combat mode is trash, and thats where it belongs. Bring back the 4 intents like god intended.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:13 pm**

tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 am dont grill pete she gives milk

Did you just misgender Pete?

Also complexity is good as long as it adds depth.

Scanning 4 plasma chairs is not good complexity. Scanning an autolathe you had to build/flamethrower etc is.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:36 pm**

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:13 pm
tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 am dont grill pete she gives milk
Did you just misgender Pete?

Also complexity is good as long as it adds depth.

Scanning 4 plasma chairs is not good complexity. Scanning an autolathe you had to build/flamethrower etc is.

No i didnt

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 am**

tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:36 pm
chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:13 pm
tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 am dont grill pete she gives milk
Did you just misgender Pete?

Also complexity is good as long as it adds depth.

Scanning 4 plasma chairs is not good complexity. Scanning an autolathe you had to build/flamethrower etc is.
No i didnt

Fool.
Pete is a goat with no alterations besides name. Goats do not have a specified sex by nature, and thus inherit the gender var from /mob/living/simple_animal, which is "plural." However, /mob/living/simple_animal[/b] has a line of code on the Initialize() proc that assigns a gender to instances of /mob/living/simple_animal where gender == PLURAL, choosing 50/50 from male and female with the command

Code: Select all

if(gender == PLURAL) 
	gender = pick(MALE,FEMALE)[/b]

Thus making pete random every time the map is loaded. Pete's udder component in independent from Pete's sex, and is always loaded on Initialize()

Code: Select all

/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/retaliate/goat/Initialize(mapload)
	AddComponent(/datum/component/udder)
	. = ..()

Because of this fact, in all text written from Pete uses the pronoun they for Pete's emotes with the exception of the "gets an evil-looking gleam in (their) eye" line which uses the [p_their()] proc to generate a pronoun based on sex. This line only triggers when Pete is about to attack something.

In short, Pete is not (nessicarly) female, you utter buffoon.

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:34 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 am
tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:36 pm
chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:13 pm
tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:36 am dont grill pete she gives milk
Did you just misgender Pete?

Also complexity is good as long as it adds depth.

Scanning 4 plasma chairs is not good complexity. Scanning an autolathe you had to build/flamethrower etc is.
No i didnt
Fool.
Pete is a goat with no alterations besides name. Goats do not have a specified sex by nature, and thus inherit the gender var from /mob/living/simple_animal, which is "plural." However, /mob/living/simple_animal[/b] has a line of code on the Initialize() proc that assigns a gender to instances of /mob/living/simple_animal where gender == PLURAL, choosing 50/50 from male and female with the command
Code: Select all
if(gender == PLURAL) 
	gender = pick(MALE,FEMALE)[/b]
Thus making pete random every time the map is loaded. Pete's udder component in independent from Pete's sex, and is always loaded on Initialize()
Code: Select all
/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/retaliate/goat/Initialize(mapload)
	AddComponent(/datum/component/udder)
	. = ..()
Because of this fact, in all text written from Pete uses the pronoun they for Pete's emotes with the exception of the "gets an evil-looking gleam in (their) eye" line which uses the [p_their()] proc to generate a pronoun based on sex. This line only triggers when Pete is about to attack something.

In short, Pete is not (nessicarly) female, you utter buffoon.

i forgot who pete is so im not wrong because i was referring to the constrct of pete in my mind when i said she

Posted: **Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:40 pm**

i don't play anymore and haven't for a long time, but what made me stop enjoying the game wasn't really depth/lack of it; it was how it felt like (subjectively) that the game was moving away from the wacky player to player interactions and stories, to "here's some stuff for you to do for an hour when you don't roll antag", like lavaland - really really cool piece of content except you also spend the entire round on a different z level essentially playing a different game

obviously cannot speak to how the game plays/is adminned/literally anything in the past few years, so if you reply to this post assuming i am, i will make fun of you

Posted: **Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:57 pm**

Qbopper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:40 pm i don't play anymore and haven't for a long time, but what made me stop enjoying the game wasn't really depth/lack of it; it was how it felt like (subjectively) that the game was moving away from the wacky player to player interactions and stories, to "here's some stuff for you to do for an hour when you don't roll antag", like lavaland - really really cool piece of content except you also spend the entire round on a different z level essentially playing a different game

obviously cannot speak to how the game plays/is adminned/literally anything in the past few years, so if you reply to this post assuming i am, i will make fun of you

100% true. The development of the game really drifted away over the year from the core of the game: The traitor driven chaos on the spaceship. All the new features mainly focus on crafting/building/progression systems which don't really materialize well because they get reset every shift and the rewards are rather minimal for traitors. In a way a game like Among Us is the pure distilled version of the traitor gameplay and it became super popular because it focussed completely on that (It grows old though because there is so little creativity as imposter in that game).

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:16 am**

i only play a few rounds a week

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:41 am**

In Game PermaBanned

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:29 pm**

Timonk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:41 am In Game PermaBanned

retard

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:26 pm**

There used to be a common phrase in coderbus.

"It sounds to me like you are trying to tell players how to enjoy the game."

Everybody in here making remarks about what the true fun parts of the game are, and everybody is wrong because everybody enjoys different parts of this game for different reasons.

One of the benefits of the old system of interconnected puddles of shallow explicit depth and deep implistic depth (That come from the interactions with other systems and easter egg like moments of "you can do that?!") that sometimes emergent-gameplay'ed its way into a full on tidal wave is it allowed players to make their own fun.

One of the benefits of the wild unbalanced rng driven combat is it allowed players to make their own fun. Sometimes being the librarian who got a luckily shove on the wizard feels more powerful then being the assistant self promoted to clown setting up a lube super highway out an airlock, sometimes the later is more exciting, and sometimes it means having the gear to make you feel invisible and unstoppable as a hos or mech-roboticist self promoted to hos. Sometimes overcoming all of this and still fucking over the station as antag makes victory all that much sweeter.

Random Crits are a hated and loved addition to fpses for the same reason by different players, it destroys the meta and creates wild swings that aren't controlled by skill or meta table memoriations.

Somewhere in there is a lesson for all job content, but i'm not the right kind of high to figure it out.

Posted: **Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:13 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:26 pm There used to be a common phrase in coderbus.

"It sounds to me like you are trying to tell players how to enjoy the game."

Maybe, but I think we can at least as individuals give our opinion about whether the direction the game is going is actually fun for us personally. There is of course also an amount of self selection, because when the nature of the game changes, the type of players that stick around also changes.

Posted: **Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:18 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:26 pm One of the benefits of the wild unbalanced rng driven combat is it allowed players to make their own fun.

This 100 thousand % this

Posted: **Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:50 pm**

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:26 pm One of the benefits of the old system of interconnected puddles of shallow explicit depth and deep implistic depth (That come from the interactions with other systems and easter egg like moments of "you can do that?!") that sometimes emergent-gameplay'ed its way into a full on tidal wave is it allowed players to make their own fun.

One of the benefits of the wild unbalanced rng driven combat is it allowed players to make their own fun. Sometimes being the librarian who got a luckily shove on the wizard feels more powerful then being the assistant self promoted to clown setting up a lube super highway out an airlock, sometimes the later is more exciting, and sometimes it means having the gear to make you feel invisible and unstoppable as a hos or mech-roboticist self promoted to hos. Sometimes overcoming all of this and still fucking over the station as antag makes victory all that much sweeter.

MSO typa guy to play for 15 hours total in 10 years and somehow still delineate exactly what makes ss13 fun

kind of freaky honestly

Posted: **Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:51 pm**

Add random crits to tg

Posted: **Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:53 am**

Timonk wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:51 pm Add random crits to tg

used to be in tg

Posted: **Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am**

Decapitation and disembowel don't count

Posted: **Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:55 pm**

Timonk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am Decapitation and disembowel don't count

No the old shove mechanic was rng based for pushing people to the ground. Hints what MSO was taking about a librarian shoving down a wizard.

Posted: **Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:18 pm**

Qbopper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:40 pm i don't play anymore and haven't for a long time, but what made me stop enjoying the game wasn't really depth/lack of it; it was how it felt like (subjectively) that the game was moving away from the wacky player to player interactions and stories, to "here's some stuff for you to do for an hour when you don't roll antag", like lavaland - really really cool piece of content except you also spend the entire round on a different z level essentially playing a different game

obviously cannot speak to how the game plays/is adminned/literally anything in the past few years, so if you reply to this post assuming i am, i will make fun of you

I have abruptly realized that this is why I mourn Extended being basically gone now. People should be able to have one (1) whole round of RP just doing jobs and being spacedudes without losing their minds about NO ANTAGS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CALL SHUTTLE FOR A NEW ROLL

Part of antags interrupting everyday life is having an everyday life to interrupt.

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:42 pm**

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:18 pm I have abruptly realized that this is why I mourn Extended being basically gone now. People should be able to have one (1) whole round of RP just doing jobs and being spacedudes without losing their minds about NO ANTAGS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA CALL SHUTTLE FOR A NEW ROLL

Part of antags interrupting everyday life is having an everyday life to interrupt.

Extended was a good thing.

Also, dynamic threats kinda sucks. It was good to have mulligans, but generally one threat type for the round was always best. Just the right amount of chaos and everyone could be on the same page about it.

Maybe I am just a boomer. I haven't played vanilla TG in some years.

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:35 pm**

solution: more rng

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:53 pm**

more rng will just turn people back to moaning about it, you're never going to satisfy everyone, I'm happy to add RNG outside the combat system but we're simply not going to do it within it.

Posted: **Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:26 pm**

We still have alot RNG systems in combat that people seem to not care about. The big ones on damage and armor so people can more accurately power game exactly how many hits it takes to down some motherfucker with an e-sword and take less risks. Its always four. On a sec officer target the esword can penatrate both a helmet and body armor without loosing any damage, body shots however will be reduced by 3 damage because the officer's jumpsuit gives a small amount of melee armor that stacks with body armor. The amount of hits it takes is still four.

But there is still RNG HERE. Because arms and legs have a body damage coefficient of 0.75, there damage only contributes 3/4 as much to the bodies' total health. When you attack an alive and standing up target there is a 20% chance that you strike a random zone. Because arms and legs are weighted much more heavy as a random zone, there is a 88.89% chance that you strike a limb that that only contributes 75% damage. This gives us a 17.78% chance for a limb shot total.

This means that an esword that does 30 damage to an unarmored target actually does on average 28.667 damage per hit, with a range between 22.5-30. In practice, an unarmored target still requires four hits to down unless you land 3/4 limb shots and if you manage to hit the same limb twice, which is about a 5% chance, the damage counts for even less because limb damage is caped at 50. On a security officer body shot, this only requires 2/4 limb shots to require another hit.

On lower damage weapons with less armor penetration, (or even higher damage weapons that are closer to important damage thresholds such as the double esword) these factors become even more relevant.

These systems used to be even more complex and harder with armor RNG and damage RNG, which i wish we still had. Maybe alongside RPG mechanics to make the randomness controllable and feel better.

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 am**

Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:55 pm
Timonk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am Decapitation and disembowel don't count
No the old shove mechanic was rng based for pushing people to the ground. Hints what MSO was taking about a librarian shoving down a wizard.

There was also stun punches when your punch rolled max damage so you would randomly hit for 10% of their health and knock them over for an eternity which let you basically kill them
This might still be in the game I honestly do not know

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:31 pm**

we still have knock down punches, but they drop you instead of hard stun. one shove will hard stun

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:33 pm**

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:31 pm we still have knock down punches, but they drop you instead of hard stun. one shove will hard stun

Ah so it was effectively removed then, since people on the ground can still attack with their fists perfectly fine

Posted: **Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:25 pm**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:26 pm On an unarmored target can penatrate both a helmet and body armor without loosing any damage

The armor is clearly too tight, then

Posted: **Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:41 pm**

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 am
Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:55 pm
Timonk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am Decapitation and disembowel don't count
No the old shove mechanic was rng based for pushing people to the ground. Hints what MSO was taking about a librarian shoving down a wizard.
There was also stun punches when your punch rolled max damage so you would randomly hit for 10% of their health and knock them over for an eternity which let you basically kill them
This might still be in the game I honestly do not know

I was on the receiving end of that many times and never saw a problem with it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:37 pm**

Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:41 pm
PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 am
Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:55 pm
Timonk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am Decapitation and disembowel don't count
No the old shove mechanic was rng based for pushing people to the ground. Hints what MSO was taking about a librarian shoving down a wizard.
There was also stun punches when your punch rolled max damage so you would randomly hit for 10% of their health and knock them over for an eternity which let you basically kill them
This might still be in the game I honestly do not know
I was on the receiving end of that many times and never saw a problem with it.

that's why you play TG "unlimited attachments" MC right?

Posted: **Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:08 pm**

I feel like this is just TF2s random crits debate

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:22 pm**

oranges wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:37 pm
Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:41 pm
PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:30 am
Zaffinomlb wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:55 pm
Timonk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:47 am Decapitation and disembowel don't count
No the old shove mechanic was rng based for pushing people to the ground. Hints what MSO was taking about a librarian shoving down a wizard.
There was also stun punches when your punch rolled max damage so you would randomly hit for 10% of their health and knock them over for an eternity which let you basically kill them
This might still be in the game I honestly do not know
I was on the receiving end of that many times and never saw a problem with it.
that's why you play TG "unlimited attachments" MC right?

I play TGMC because I enjoy xenos and base TG isnt fun for me anymore.

Posted: **Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:56 pm**

armchair gamedev thoughts: a little rng is generally a good thing to keep combat from being solved, the hard part is just finding that line where it's too much rng and thus skill is becoming less relevant

a 5% chance to win a fight on a lucky punch is bad, a 20% chance to need one extra hit to crit someone is probably good since it adds some variance

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:58 am**

i lost a stun duel to an esword the other day, felt like shit

Posted: **Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:50 pm**

Timonk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:58 am i lost a stun duel to an esword the other day, felt like shit

I will fix this straight away sir

/tg/Station 13

The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex

Re: The game has become too complex