Drake, where's the RND documentation?

[Technoturnovers]

So, I haven't played in fucking MONTHS now, possibly over a year, but now that I'm between college semesters it seems like I might finally have an opportunity to get back into SS13, and by extension the only popular codebase besides occasionally CEV Eris that doesn't seem like complete dogwater to me (despite the maintainers' best attempts to make it so, of course (orange man bad)). My first thought is: how about I try Science again? I haven't played RND in a while even before taking a break from SS13 because of dogshit Experi-Scanner tasks that completely miss the point of Experi-Sci and instead force you to scan toilets, walls, and whatever else the fuck to get Industrial Tech. Maybe it's improved since then.

So, I check the wiki, and the article is completely unaltered from what I remember pre Experi-Sci. I check the page history, and there are a total of 14 edits since June of 2020, all of them either removing, rearranging, or rewording shit. WELL. I guess I might as well check the HackMD- sure, it's not meant to be a reference on the game in its current state, but I can at least get a feel for things from the roadmap and what the intended gameplay is, right?

Nah. HackMD Science design doc unchanged since 2 years(!!!) ago, and what is there is totally anemic. A little under half of the body of the page is taken up explaining the economy around anomaly cores, despite the fact that anomaly cores have been a requirement for certain endgame techs like Phazon and Bags of Holding since before I first played SS13, meaning that expanding their usage is hardly the most controversial thing in the world to feel the need to justify ad nauseam. Then after that section there's a 404 error caused by god knows what, nice, and then finally the section on Research and Development. 159 words of oranges signature, wit(less) snark, short enough to fit in a tweet. Since it's so short, I might as well beat this horse to death and then some by picking it apart, line by line.

So active points generation hasn’t worked, techwebs is a total mess, points generation is massive one round, and nothing the next.

I want techwebs overhauled.

Flat rate point generation, from start of round and ticking upwards.

First of all, where are your subheadings and clearly defined goals and milestones? I mean, it's 159 words so obviously that was never in the cards, but still. Also, flat rate point generation is a thing now and has been for as long as I've been playing, so this section should really be marked as "done" or something.

Sub chains of research should be gated by a scientific experiment, what that looks like for each part of the web is up to users implementation choice, it might be redeeming something like a slime, or building a specific nanite/virus, it should be related to the technologies in question

This is experi-sci, done, this section should probably be linked to the Experi-Sci design doc (which, while informative, focuses almost entirely to the technical details of the system and has a brief "what not to do" section at the end, not very useful for my purposes.) as this sentence isn't very informative to the current state of the game, or even really what the goal in making such a system is.

The techweb console should be moved to the bridge and added to Head of staff PDA’s, so they can oversee research for their depts and techwebs is no longer seen as a “science” job.

Done, should probably be scratched out or marked as completed.

The core research techs should be achievable in 60 minutes, with extension trees being possible but only a selection of them, I.e you have to choose some focuses.

Theoretically done, although last I played a solid majority of sci players still couldn't figure out how to make a bomb to achieve mid-level techs; toxins is finnicky as fuck, and you really can't rely on the wiki for it, I only managed to learn by requesting the aid of a far more intelligent spaceman than I on discord. Basically, if you're relying on people knowing how to do toxins, then you are SORELY mistaken on how many people are even capable of making a glorified flashbang.

I will not accept PR’s that do not conform to this design.

This being as opposed to the veritable BOUNTY of github pull requests that oranges is known to accept, of course. Because as we all know, oranges is very detailed and communicative in regards to constructing feedback for his slaves fellow programmers.

That's it- there's a 404 under the Non-Maintainer design flows heading, and then a whole lotta shit about cytology that warrants (and probably already has) its own design doc. Out of one last desperate effort, I am venturing into the vast, horrifying hellscape that is known as the tgstation github to see what merges have been made regarding science, although I'm gonna post this before I make such an attempt in the likely eventuality that I do not survive the experience.

[datorangebottle]

This man's gonna die when he learns about toxins papers.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

This man's gonna die when he learns about toxins papers.

I have been playing this game for 2.5k hours and I can create zauker in the hfr, run pure co2 SMs, and make 100% pure synthflesh factories, but I still don't know how to do fucking toxins.

Fuck ordnance.

[MooCow12]

The worst part is I still dont see how this isnt going backwards.

Science has become far less engaging than it's ever been, there is a hard limit on how much you can do to make sure you get a tech you want and then your only option is to wait at a console and pray nobody else nabs the points before you can get your tech.

You do one discount experiment (if the tech you want even has one) and then thats it, thats all you can do to try to get a tech you want, I`ve seen roboticist screaming and crying on radio for over half the round standing infront of a research console trying to unlock tech that they already did experiments for.

As of right now it`s a failed system driven by a toxic design philosophy that limits a player`s agency to earn a tech they need and nothing more.

and considering that according to Technoturnovers, most of the requirements for this "better" sci have been fulfilled I do not see this system improving at all.



The only thing that is keeping RND alive is the little prs that manage to sneak through and make experisci more endurable with cheaper techs and higher discounts and reworks to the tech tree.

[bastardblaster]

science should be as miserable to play as possible to punish science players for being science players

[Ryusenshu]

The worst part is I still dont see how this isnt going backwards.

Science has become far less engaging than it's ever been, there is a hard limit on how much you can do to make sure you get a tech you want and then your only option is to wait at a console and pray nobody else nabs the points before you can get your tech.

You do one discount experiment (if the tech you want even has one) and then thats it, thats all you can do to try to get a tech you want, I`ve seen roboticist screaming and crying on radio for over half the round standing infront of a research console trying to unlock tech that they already did experiments for.

As of right now it`s a failed system driven by a toxic design philosophy that limits a player`s agency to earn a tech they need and nothing more.

and considering that according to Technoturnovers, most of the requirements for this "better" sci have been fulfilled I do not see this system improving at all.



The only thing that is keeping RND alive is the little prs that manage to sneak through and make experisci more endurable with cheaper techs and higher discounts and reworks to the tech tree.

I once had the idea of "department levels", in which you gain "xp" in those and/or by doing "quests" related to them, then level up the entire Department in the process

Supply could be scanning ore samples or related to points in the ORM (maybe correct paperwork for cargo techs?)
Medical could still be dissections and organ related (maybe even chems?)
Science get xp for doing toxins and scans for mechs, genemutators and xenobio extracts
Service can be botany, complicated foods or drinks
Only thing ive no idea is Sec, maybe weapon testing in the firing range? (Provided by a centcom test crate?)

All those might even give bounties more usability when the robo could sell a Ripley for xp
Would make rounds go at their own pace instead of waiting for timers and xp needed can be scaled to starting pop

Issue is, i have no idea what the RD Computer should do and what to do once hit max Level

I think this might be a idea to think about, but it SHOULD be fleshed out more for sure

[Epicgamer545]

This man's gonna die when he learns about toxins papers.

I have been playing this game for 2.5k hours and I can create zauker in the hfr, run pure co2 SMs, and make 100% pure synthflesh factories, but I still don't know how to do fucking toxins.

Fuck ordnance.

what then fuck is a “frontier”
what is PH
what is anything

[MooCow12]

science should be as miserable to play as possible to punish science players for being science players

The lower the quality of life of science gets the more players are encouraged to just take science as a role to get free Protolathe access and then tide because your department is worthless and how much you can do to earn tech is limited.

[SpaceSmithers]

Howdy, here's my obligatory 'anyone with a forum account can edit the wiki' post. There are many pages that need some love, but our science pages are definitely some of the most crucial. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[chocolate_bickie]

Howdy, here's my obligatory 'anyone with a forum account can edit the wiki' post. There are many pages that need some love, but our science pages are definitely some of the most crucial. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

But that would require me to engage with RnD first.

[oranges]

sounds like a skill issue