/tg/Station 13

So I just recently had a round on Manuel. It was lowpop.
The shuttle was enroute and I had 2 objectives. Kill an atmos guy and kill a miner.
I spot the atmos guy coming out of engineering. I shoot them with a laser. They burst into flames... Probably because they're covered in alcohol. I too burst into flames and my jumpsuit burns off.
I finish them off by beating them to death, before dragging them down a ladder so I can grab their jumpsuit (because all my stuff burned off and I needed a jumpsuit to pocket my gear).

When I leave the area, I get spotted by the captain and an assistant who eventually chase me into disposals whereby I'm killed after a bit of a scuffle.

Fair enough, I die.... Just an average round

***
But then in deadchat I had like 3 people calling me a dick, a moron, a fucking asshole etc... I was confused and asked why, they said I'd removed someone from the round. I explained I was traitor and they were my target.
Curious, I asked an admin if I did anything wrong. The admin's reply was 'don't worry about it, low pop isn't a shield for people to hide behind, you did nothing wrong'...

But the same 3 people kept insulting me, accusing me of being a dick, just lots of insults and saying 'you shouldn't remove people from the round! / nobody cares about your greentext'

But then... the round ends and sure enough the other TWO traitors have killed their targets, yet nobody is complaining about them killing their targets. I guess because it's their regular buddies/clique?

***

So my point is... I guess. Why is it okay for certain players to kill who they need to? Why the pile on for doing exactly the same?
I could understand if I was murderboning or killing randoms or bombing medbay or any kind of griefy behaviour, but all I did was kill one of my two targets and got a bucket load of nasty shit thrown on me in deadchat.

Honestly, it's this kind of thing that makes me want to change servers.
Sorry for the rant, I'm more confused than angry. If anyone can point out what I did wrong, I'll change the way I play... But wow.
Is Manuel really this bad for anyone who isn't in their little player gang?

I'm just after an answer really, if someone can either point out what I did wrong or point me in the right direction to avoid this shit I'll be happy.... Admins said I broke no rules.

if you were a traitor and the person you killed was your target then it's valid fuckin salad and the people complaining should fuck off to a hrp perma-extended sandbox pve server if they don't want to ever be round-removed

except they shouldn't because then I might have to deal with them and fuck that

Screemonster wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:46 pm if you were a traitor and the person you killed was your target then it's valid fuckin salad and the people complaining should fuck off to a hrp perma-extended sandbox pve server

except they shouldn't because then I might have to deal with them and fuck that

Yep I shot two people that round. A captain who almost blew my cover - Captain survived after calling me out on comms.
Then I killed ONE of my TWO targets (and during that incident I badly burned myself because the target burst into flames, so I stripped them for their jumpsuit). I didn't even hide the body, just dragged it down one ladder and grabbed their suit - nothing else.
Then as I said I got chased and dove into disposals, then the valid-hunters chased me into disposals and killed me with stolen traitor gear.

I was Ronnie.

DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "Imagine round removing someone on deadpop, Ronnie."
DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "Yeah, massive dick move"
DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "Go to another server if you want to fuck with someone
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "what am i supposed to do? im a traitor"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "Not RR people."
DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "There are no objectives that require you to RR people"
DEAD: Miria Monteith says, "RRing is sadly incentivised again with the objectives back to how they used to be"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "literally went after my targets, is that not allowed now?"
DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "Unless you're a primary objective"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "dude i had two targets"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "There is nothing compelling you to RR people."
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "You dont get an award for greentext."
DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "There is nothing compelling doing that on fucking deadpop"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "what? so if i have an assassination target i cant kill em?"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "Nobody CARES if you get greentext."
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "dude i was TRAITOR"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "went after my targets nobody else"
DEAD: Miria Monteith says, "I dunno, RRing primary targets is a smart thing to do but I'd avoid it where possible on Manuel - at least outside of appropriate situations on high pop hours, anyway"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "jesus christ.... why is everyone getting upset because i killed my target?"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "i didnt know it was against the rules.... not like i was murderboning"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "It's not against the rules, but it is a dick move."
(F) DEAD: Baal-Fur says, "It's not a rule thing, Ronnie, it's a gentleman thing
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "so why even have traitor as a thing?"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "ive been killed on low pop"
(F) DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "If the only thing that makes you bea decent person is the rule of law, then you are a shit person."
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "what the hell?"
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-ShockShard: Salutations. Honestly, don't worry about it. It being lowpop doesn't provide a magical shield to keep people from being targetted by Antag objectives.
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "i had 2 kill objectives... i went for them
DEAD: Miria Monteith says, "look we're not saying it's something you can never do or anything, just that when two targets is 40% of the population, maybe give them a chance or only take them out at the end, is all"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "and i wasnt being a dick, i tried all shift not to disrupt anyone's round"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "Ok, continue to be an asshole, and people will continue to call you an asshole."
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "how is calling me an asshole even justified. i played as a traitor so what?"
(F) DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "I dont give one red cent what the rules say, because the rules aren't what decide that you're a dick."
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "sorry to upset your meta clique"
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "Kayla if you wanna rp, why even rp in a game with antags?"
(F) DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "If that's what you take away from this, I regret ever meeting you."
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "listen i played my role as traitor, i killed someone and you're crying.... even the admin said it was fine"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "You killed two people, and then died. With 10 people here, that is over 30% of the station pop."
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "2? i only killed 1"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "not like i was random killing, just hunting my target"
(F) DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "The admin said it is within the rules of the server
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "and you seem to be unable to separate being a dick, and the rules."
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "it's a game, i didnt go out my way to hurt anyone, get over yourself"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "I'd call you an asshole no matter who you RR'd/".
PM to-Admins: man i dont even know what i did wrong? i was only after my target, can you please let the people crying know i didnt do anything wrong? just played my role
DEAD: Kayla Poehl asks, "But why does greentext matter so much to you?"
Admin PM from-ShockShard: They know you did nothing wrong. Honestly they are just upset. Me bumping in is just going to fan the fire more.
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits asks, "it doesnt, why does other people's greentext offend you?"
(F) DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "Literally not a soul cares if you "accomplish your objectives""
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "the only people crying are you, im not even bothered if i died or lived, im really sorry it upset you..."
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "You didnt make a story, you RR'd one lizard who was minding their own business."
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "MY target"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "well... please show me the rule where antags aren't allowed to be antags on low pop"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "It's not a RULE you MORON"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "then why are you so salty? and insulting me"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "God what a fucking waste of time."
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "jesus christ.... its a game,... theres antags"
DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "go play tetris or something"

(meanwile)

Marianne Catlay meows, "I got my main target but meh"

DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "MUH ANTEG ROUND"
(F) DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "oh wow so Marianne in chat can kill their target just not me"
DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "MUH ANTEG"
Muffindrake: Do you understand what the term 'dick move' means?
OOC: Kayozz11: and well the other traitors killed their targets



So the other antags openly admit they killed their targets and greentexted. But I kill ONE of their meta-buddies, I get shit on.
And I didn't RR anyone, I killed someone and took their jumpsuit lol.

You did nothing wrong, don't worry. People will salt over anything, this isn't exclusive of Manuel. I've seen people doing the typing equivalent of pulling their hair out when they see someone didn't live to their own expectations and standards of a certain antag.

These are, special people, or people having a special day. You yourself should measure how much of it is worth
dwelling on and/or getting upset about.

Saltying in dchat/ooc isn't constructive, nor is it responding or trying to justify yourself to people saltying in dchat/ooc, so I'd say just let them drown in their own little glass of tears.

holy hell the current state of /tg/

Agux909 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:16 pm You did nothing wrong, don't worry. People will salt over anything, this isn't exclusive of Manuel. I've seen people doing the typing equivalent of pulling their hair out when they see someone didn't live to their own expectations and standards of a certain antag.

These are, special people, or people having a special day. You yourself should measure how much of it is worth for dwelling on and getting upset about.

Saltying in dchat/ooc isn't constructive, nor is it responding or trying to justify yourself to people saltying in dchat/ooc, so I'd say just let them drown in their own little glass of water.

This.

It sucks to deal with, but TG doesn't provide the kind of environment some salters might be looking for, or maybe people are just mad. There isn't really any point to feeding them anything. They aren't entitled to a thing.

Either way people that use deadchat as a place to start fights are also opening themselves up to admin intervention in some cases as well. If they are using it to dogpile people that did nothing wrong besides hurt their feelings by playing the game, they might just be fitting the mold for said intervention and need to go outside and take a break if its that much of a problem for them to vent their frustrations in a positive way and they are taking the game THAT seriously.

There isn't really a way to avoid this, the people that get mad just might not have the best levels of sportsmanship in a game where losing is a regular occurrence. And they will have to learn to deal with the fact that not everyone plays the way that they do.

If you did something wrong, the admins in question probably would have told you and worked with you to avoid repeating said mistakes in the future.

In short someone got round removed, boo hoo, they need to deal with it or consider going to another server where people don't get round removed. I kindly invite those sorts of people that would do what you described to do just that.

holy shit what a pair of absolute babies
they weren't even the ones you killed
one of the people bitching at you was even one of the traitors that killed their targets holy fucking shit what a hypocrite

Screemonster wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:30 pm holy shit what a pair of absolute babies
they weren't even the ones you killed
one of the people bitching at you was even one of the traitors that killed their targets holy fucking shit what a hypocrite

Exactly. Thank you!

I would have just started laughing at them in deadchat, this game is not a job simulator, it is a game where you go on the station and some of the people are actually bad people that want to shoot you.
>DEAD: Ronnie Biscuits says, "dude i had two targets"
>DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "There is nothing compelling you to RR people."
>DEAD: Kayla Poehl says, "You dont get an award for greentext."
DUDE JUST LIKE UMMMM DONT PLAY THE GAME SWEATY

> Three random people that probably only play on downtime complain about a stupid thing

"Why is all of Manuel like this"

Bathe in the salt, it's good for your skin.

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:27 pm > Three random people that probably only play on downtime complain about a stupid thing

"Why is all of Manuel like this"

Its literally all of manuel

It's all of the Manuel admins too. I have access to the redstring metagang pinboard.

Those complainers are what some would refer to as “special” individuals.

I bet they like pies in the face

Bepis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:20 pm I bet they like pies in the face

I've heard they ahelp those.

the more people that play antags the way they are intended, the more metagangs forced to HRP or private servers

Good job OP for bringing excitement to that manuel round

Roll antag. Kill the metagangs. Set up a mine on the newly formed sodium deposit. Profit. There are no questionmarks.

More death on Manuel is an objectively good thing.

This was expected and bound to happen. Just let your spessman character die. It’s apart of the game. There are some gentlemen things when it comes to the community, but this isn’t one of them.

Losing is apart of the game. No matter what Baal or any other person says.

I hate this kind of toxicity, genuinely the worst the worst part of the game. Why are you being a dick to someone trying to make the round interesting following all the rules?

It is the season for snowflakes

Appreciate the replies and the solidarity. Seems I'm not alone in the frustration.

If everyone on Manuel hates dying so much, why don't they just enable respawning.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:07 pm If everyone on Manuel hates dying so much, why don't they just enable respawning.

Don't give the felinids ideas, they'll be asking for 9 lives.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:08 am Roll antag. Kill the metagangs. Set up a mine on the newly formed sodium deposit. Profit. There are no questionmarks.

if only I was more robust

Ziiro wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:08 pm if only I was more robust

Incentive to get more robust. Channel your hate and anger in a Rocky-eqsue montage and become the robust.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:49 pm

Ziiro wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:08 pm if only I was more robust

Incentive to get more robust. Channel your hate and anger in a Rocky-eqsue montage and become the robust.

I think it would be a funny gimmick to run a "Robust Training Program" where one sets up a gym in dorms to train spacemen to fight using various tried-and-true and easily improvised strategies.

kill as many people as you possibly can on manuel, in order to have a heavy influence on sodium stocks

This is honestly quite bad I will raise it with the headadmins

I think the funniest part is that one of the people complaining was a traitor who successfully completed their kill objectives. You should revel in your salt, you did nothing wrong, and I'm sorry that such people are on the servers to shitten up the experience.

oranges wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:58 am This is honestly quite bad I will raise it with the headadmins

If you're serious then thanks.

For clarity's sake, Shockshard looked into this immediately when kayozz ahelped. Shockshard then brought it to the internal admin channels to share the ahelp and discuss the incident and how to proceed.

They were able to catch up with Vaporwhisp and discuss the incident with them soon after, placing a very well-worded note in the process about an hour after this thread went up.

So this incident absolutely wasn't ignored. While the thread immediately caught admin attention, Shockshard was already in the middle of investigating and handling your ticket from before you posted this thread.

I don't know if you got the message, but Domitius tried to reach out to you on the Discord in the MRP channel to let you know we'd handled it. This is just an additional debrief.

Yeah Shockshard was very reassuring and I appreciate their help. I don't think for a second I was ignored, I think my posting this thread was for cathartic reasons and to see if others felt the same way. My issue was never about the staff here at all. More about looking for answers or to see if I did anything wrong that I could improve on.
Just wanted feedback tbh and to see how fellow gamers felt about the situation.

At the time I felt like I had crossed some unspoken line, hence me wanting feedback. But Shockshard and others were very helpful. Please thank them for me.

Appreciate it.

Domitius is a forum lurker. I'll tell Shockshard to read your post though.

really killing anyone with that low of a pop is shitter behaviour but that goes for the hypocrites complaining too. when the pop is that low, admins don't tend to be around, so in the event that people die with nobody to call, the only thing left to restart the round is a vote, which often doesn't work due to afk people. them complaining was definitely standard deadchat salt though.

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:38 am really killing anyone with that low of a pop is shitter behaviour

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:38 am really killing anyone with that low of a pop is shitter behaviour

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:38 am really killing anyone with that low of a pop is shitter behaviour

It is not being a shitter to do a thing the game specifically instructs you to do.
If people being killed on lowpop is really a problem then maybe the game shouldn't generate assassination objectives on lowpop, but since it does you can't really blame people for following them.
Personally, I don't think it is a problem, and if it was then someone would have coded a check for it already.
Part of the whole point of the game is not knowing whether someone, anyone, might shank you and toss you out an airlock the moment you let you guard down, while simultaneously being forced to rely on other crewmembers (and thus make yourself vulnerable) to get things done. That all goes out the window if there's some population threshold under which you know that people aren't allowed to kill you without it being murderboning.

I'm not the biggest fan of lowpop specifically because antags(especially progtot) tend to roll hard when they have such little opposition, but that kind of saltiness in deadchat is sad.

If you really have such issues with getting mad, type out whatever you were going to say into a notepad document and then delete it afterward. I've done it on the occasions I get tilted and it stops me from saying stupid shit I'll regret.

Screemonster wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:40 am

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:38 am really killing anyone with that low of a pop is shitter behaviour

It is not being a shitter to do a thing the game specifically instructs you to do.
If people being killed on lowpop is really a problem then maybe the game shouldn't generate assassination objectives on lowpop, but since it does you can't really blame people for following them.
Personally, I don't think it is a problem, and if it was then someone would have coded a check for it already.
Part of the whole point of the game is not knowing whether someone, anyone, might shank you and toss you out an airlock the moment you let you guard down, while simultaneously being forced to rely on other crewmembers (and thus make yourself vulnerable) to get things done. That all goes out the window if there's some population threshold under which you know that people aren't allowed to kill you without it being murderboning.

"B-but the game tells me to!" Yes, but no.

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.

Except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

A lone antagonist is completely allowed to do as they please, so it's equally fair to hold them accountable for their behaviour if they decide to do something in bad faith. The issue with low pop, and why there's a stigma against killing during it, is that generally there are no admins on to set the round straight (either by restarting or forcing a shuttle call) when things get too brutal. I can't speak for specifically TG, as I do not play on TG under a pop of 30, but for others servers I've encountered there'd be a huge issue of people rolling traitor, go on a killing spree, and either the person would spend ages desperately searching for the sign of any scraps of the crew to kill while refusing to call to end the round, or they'd die to some random situation (you can use your imagination here. How many fights have you had where you technically won but dropped dead shortly after be it from atmos, blood, etc?), leaving the station with nobody to call for hours. Now you can bring up the restart vote as an option here, but that often fails as people will stay logged in and AFK or simply not notice the vote. If there's an active admin on, well, whatever! They can speed things along then.

But low pop doesn't usually have active admins.

At a code level, everything breaks down at lowpop. All the carefully crafted assumptions we make about minimally staffed departments and how the game progresses stop being true and ("hur hur there isn't any" jokes go here) any game balance we might have aimed for is gone.

The goal of lowpop policy is almost universally aimed at setting the server up to successfully survive to higher pop levels, where the quintessential SS13 experience we all know and love genuinely begins.

There is a delicate balance between:

Lowpop means no murder - Boring, the round never progresses, the shuttle never gets called, people get bored waiting and go somewhere else. Server doesn't grow highpop.
Lowpop has no restriction - Very easy for antags to hold the shift hostage. Dead players just leave if it looks like they'll be dead for a while. Server doesn't grow to highpop.

But generally speaking, our experience is that lowpop murderbone slows or sometimes even outright prevents a server gathering players for the day for some classic SS13. Lack of lowpop murderbone usually doesn't slow this down, as players join the game in a sort of holding pattern until shit gets real.

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:04 pm
A lone antagonist is completely allowed to do as they please, so it's equally fair to hold them accountable for their behaviour if they decide to do something in bad faith.

there is nothing "bad faith" about literally playing the fucking game

you know what you sound like right now? You sound like a dude I ran into in syschat in Elite Dangerous a while back.
There was a story event going on, a war in a particular system that would decide the current plot arc. Players had to go out to conflict zones in that system and score kills for their side.
Some dude showed up in open mode - the one where you can just meet other players with no restrictions, as opposed to private group or solo - and went to a CZ.
There was another player on the opposing side. He joined anyway. That player immediately saw a hollow red pip on the radar, assessed them as a threat, and blew them out of the sky.
The exploded player proceeded to bitch for about an hour in system chat about this dude shooting at him.
His reasoning: "HE KNEW I WAS ANOTHER PLAYER, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST STICK TO FARMING NPCS?????"
Unsurprisingly, literally everyone else, PvPer and PvEer alike, was like "you went to a warzone in open what the fuck did you expect, for other people NOT to fight in the war?"

Screemonster wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:35 pm

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:04 pm
A lone antagonist is completely allowed to do as they please, so it's equally fair to hold them accountable for their behaviour if they decide to do something in bad faith.

there is nothing "bad faith" about literally playing the fucking game

you know what you sound like right now? You sound like a dude I ran into in syschat in Elite Dangerous a while back.
There was a story event going on, a war in a particular system that would decide the current plot arc. Players had to go out to conflict zones in that system and score kills for their side.
Some dude showed up in open mode - the one where you can just meet other players with no restrictions, as opposed to private group or solo - and went to a CZ.
There was another player on the opposing side. He joined anyway. That player immediately saw a hollow red pip on the radar, assessed them as a threat, and blew them out of the sky.
The exploded player proceeded to bitch for about an hour in system chat about this dude shooting at him.
His reasoning: "HE KNEW I WAS ANOTHER PLAYER, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST STICK TO FARMING NPCS?????"
Unsurprisingly, literally everyone else, PvPer and PvEer alike, was like "you went to a warzone in open what the fuck did you expect, for other people NOT to fight in the war?"

Ma'am, we have rules and headmin rulings declaring certain behaviours ingame (and out of game, but that's not the topic here) as good faith and bad faith verbatim, so maybe avoid sweeping generalizations like that if you don't wish to look obtuse. Even certain solo antag activity is restricted by the rules in favour of a more pleasant server experience.

Also with your Elite Dangerous example, this is this, and that is that. I haven't played low pop for years, so personally, it's not my problem. But I've seen how those rounds go, and can understand the frustration of people having to wait to enjoy a game because someone with main character syndrome decided to start a fire he cannot put out. This is a community based game and will continue to be so. That being said, I'd rather this be fixed via just admins being on during deadpop hours rather than an actual policy change, but I get how dull and unrealistic it is to ask admins to do that.

Low pop on any SS13 server sucks (Aside from servers that use tiny maps that are specifically built for low pop) and I actively avoid it like the plague.

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:29 pm

Screemonster wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:35 pm

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:04 pm
A lone antagonist is completely allowed to do as they please, so it's equally fair to hold them accountable for their behaviour if they decide to do something in bad faith.

there is nothing "bad faith" about literally playing the fucking game

you know what you sound like right now? You sound like a dude I ran into in syschat in Elite Dangerous a while back.
There was a story event going on, a war in a particular system that would decide the current plot arc. Players had to go out to conflict zones in that system and score kills for their side.
Some dude showed up in open mode - the one where you can just meet other players with no restrictions, as opposed to private group or solo - and went to a CZ.
There was another player on the opposing side. He joined anyway. That player immediately saw a hollow red pip on the radar, assessed them as a threat, and blew them out of the sky.
The exploded player proceeded to bitch for about an hour in system chat about this dude shooting at him.
His reasoning: "HE KNEW I WAS ANOTHER PLAYER, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST STICK TO FARMING NPCS?????"
Unsurprisingly, literally everyone else, PvPer and PvEer alike, was like "you went to a warzone in open what the fuck did you expect, for other people NOT to fight in the war?"

Ma'am, we have rules and headmin rulings declaring certain behaviours ingame (and out of game, but that's not the topic here) as good faith and bad faith verbatim, so maybe avoid sweeping generalizations like that if you don't wish to look obtuse. Even certain solo antag activity is restricted by the rules in favour of a more pleasant server experience.

Also with your Elite Dangerous example, this is this, and that is that. I haven't played low pop for years, so personally, it's not my problem. But I've seen how those rounds go, and can understand the frustration of people having to wait to enjoy a game because someone with main character syndrome decided to start a fire he cannot put out. This is a community based game and will continue to be so. That being said, I'd rather this be fixed via just admins being on during deadpop hours rather than an actual policy change, but I get how dull and unrealistic it is to ask admins to do that.

Played another low pop round earlier, rolled traitor - decided to NOT harm anyone and just concentrate on stealing shit, killing pets etc.... Raided the brig and lo and behold what do I find? A dead, stripped Warden in the locker all battered and bruised.
Bizarrely nobody was hurling abuse at whoever did that.
And round end... showed several dead people.
Nobody got abused in dead chat there either.

Hmm?

kayozz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:30 pm Played another low pop round earlier, rolled traitor - decided to NOT harm anyone and just concentrate on stealing shit, killing pets etc.... Raided the brig and lo and behold what do I find? A dead, stripped Warden in the locker all battered and bruised.
Bizarrely nobody was hurling abuse at whoever did that.
And round end... showed several dead people.
Nobody got abused in dead chat there either.

Hmm?

I don't think this is a community issue as a whole, moreso an issue with select people who decide to look at the lowered allowed destruction on MRP and take that to mean "Nothing Should Ever Happen!" It's a really shitty headspace to be in, and I'm glad Shockshard handled this as well as they seemingly did. We need to remove the slightest traces of this from the game, as this "not playing the game" toxicity is literally antithetical to people playing the game.

kayozz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:30 pm Played another low pop round earlier, rolled traitor - decided to NOT harm anyone and just concentrate on stealing shit, killing pets etc.... Raided the brig and lo and behold what do I find? A dead, stripped Warden in the locker all battered and bruised.
Bizarrely nobody was hurling abuse at whoever did that.
And round end... showed several dead people.
Nobody got abused in dead chat there either.

Hmm?

The behaviour you encountered and that spurred you to open this thread is what most people call an exception.

It would be bizarre if things that severe happened with any regularity, because admins warn and ban people for it.

Honestly I'm just being tongue-in-cheek and pointing it out for fun rather than any malice on my part by this point, so I hope nobody takes my comment(s) as a negative thing. After reading throught the comments I can legit see both sides of the debate now - and I'm only pushing it for debate really, rather than stirring the pot.

Some great answers and replies in this thread from both sides, so I do appreciate it.

As for me, I think on low pop I'll stick to theft objectives and bugging items and killing pets. That said, if I get chased or attacked, in my mind they're valid salad for a bit of the old ultra-violence though. And if I get the chance I'll chuck them in medbay or at least somewhere semi-visible.

So yeah, best of both worlds. I hope nobody takes my posts as anything but a discussion. I was a bit annoyed in the moment, but now I'm just happy to see all sides.