/tg/Station 13

by **bandit** » Sat May 10, 2014 5:21 pm #4968

Was this announced anywhere? (You can see for yourself by using Show-Server-Revision.)

by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 10, 2014 5:23 pm #4970

That's very weird, it also seems assistants lost maintenance access.

Can't say I'm happy with Sec Antag being brought back, more so without deliberation.

by **Nalar** » Sat May 10, 2014 5:54 pm #4984

I think it may be a config bug/issue, since I've not seen any announcements and it came about very abruptly.

by **Stickymayhem** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:02 pm #4986

Yeah it's not great.

Looks unintentional though so I wouldn't get upset about it.

by **Bluespace** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:23 pm #4990

It's unintentional, and assistants are getting maint back.
Although the few rounds sec antag was on, we had a lot of fun, it's being discussed right now, but will likely be turned off again.

by **Nalar** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:32 pm #4993

Rejoice. The config has been fixed, antag sec is off and assistants should have their maintenance access back.

by **Kelenius** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:48 pm #4996

Nalar wrote:Rejoice. The config has been fixed, antag sec is off and assistants have their maintenance access back.

And let me guess, security still has no maint access.

by **Nalar** » Sat May 10, 2014 6:59 pm #5004

Seems that way.

by **Stickymayhem** » Sat May 10, 2014 8:00 pm #5019

Roboticists and science now share access to everything as well, so R&D people rejoice until it gets fixed.

by **bandit** » Sun May 11, 2014 7:05 pm #5221

added poll because SoS asked

by **iamgoofball** » Sun May 11, 2014 7:34 pm #5228

sec antag best antag

we need more paranoia in our spaceman, no more trusting the redshirt to not be a traitor

by **Ikarrus** » Sun May 11, 2014 7:39 pm #5230

I'd like to see traitor sec/captain spawn without/reduced uplinks.

by **Fatal** » Sun May 11, 2014 8:21 pm #5238

Sec / Captain traitor is literally EASYMODE, and pretty shitty for anyone on the receiving end of it, the idea of having no uplink is pretty good, but I don't think that really fixes the issue, and what would you do for ling rounds

Do we really need MORE paranoia to our traitor / ling rounds? And more reason for greytiding, greytiding has gotten down to an acceptable level most rounds, rarely is it ever a major problem now

Security is a horrible job to play sometimes, and understaffed pretty much, don't make it any worse, surely the bonus of being able to trust your people is the offset by having the hardest job to do

by **paprika** » Sun May 11, 2014 10:17 pm #5259

>newfags voting for sec antag because they don't remember getting rolled over by sec officers that murder all of sec/literally anyone they see with infinite stuns + beepsky + riot shield + a-vest

Oh yeah we should let captains be antag too while we're at it.

iamgoofball wrote:we need more paranoia in our spaceman, no more trusting the redshirt to not be a traitor

This never happens anyway.

by **Incomptinence** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:36 pm #5271

The game is asymmetrical there are so many easy circumstances for treason I don't see why I should care about just one. Dragging beepsky to murderbone? Even if you delete your own record they can create another and set you to arrest bam down for 2 minutes+. Protect auth from antag setting also applies to captains it is the same thing unless we have a new setting in the works.

I have had antag officers shank me and other officers in the back, it is a rarer than you would think because a living sec force is a big asset to sec traitor as long as they stay covert.

Conversely I have once had a traitor who infiltrated sec after "protect" slowly kill me while I shouted over the radio and no one help because bad wrong meta for simpletons assumes can't start as an antag and an antag can't become one are the same thing.

by **paprika** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:42 pm #5273

You have literally never seen roundstart antag sec and it shows

by **Incomptinence** » Sun May 11, 2014 11:55 pm #5276

My byond account dates to January 5 2010. If you are going to do that elitism shtick at least do a little research like HG, rocks for brains.

by **paprika** » Mon May 12, 2014 12:30 am #5288

My statement had nothing to do with your account creation date or what an oldfag you are. You could have played since the start of the server and never seen one of the many, many retarded rounds antag sec/captain brought about (but I think you're being ignorant because you like the anti-sec stigma)

btw you're wrong and sec antag was disabled after a LONG debate.

by **Incomptinence** » Mon May 12, 2014 12:37 am #5291

I have experienced many messed up rounds, this idea you have that anyone who experienced a messed up round must hold the same self serving charge of the nerf brigade mentality as you is ridiculous.

by **Helios** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:37 am #5323

Why can't Sec/Captain have "Super" objectives.

Escape with 2 Functional AIs.
Have 20% of the station destroyed by the time the shuttle docks (With no uplink, this objective can become very hard)
Etc, etc.

by **paprika** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:01 am #5344

Because he will never do the objective and lead a gigantic murderbone tirade with a subverted AI instead?

Duh?

There was a really good sec antag alternative called crooked cop or something suggested a long time ago that gave antag sec officers leeway to murder people who pissed them off but not indiscriminately murderbone for the sake of murderbone

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:16 am #5351

one of the best things about non-antag sec was being able to trust other officers to have your back when doing risky shit

that was literally the best part about sec and just about the only part that made it worth playing.

by **Psyentific** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:19 am #5353

imblyings wrote:one of the best things about non-antag sec was being able to trust other officers to have your back when doing risky shit

that was literally the best part about sec and just about the only part that made it worth playing.

With antag sec off, you can trust your comrades enough to be alone, in a cameraless room, with telecomms off, and standing next to each other, a pen in one hand and a block of C4 in the other, next to a bunch of blank paper and a blood rune, making idle conversation in all lowers for seemingly no reason at all. Protecting authority from antag does wonders for Com/Sec solidarity. It removes "malice" from "Incompetence or Malice" - They will never purposely backstab you and never willfully fuck you over. If you aren't a criminal and/or aren't an antag, they are not out to get you. Period.

Spoiler:

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:34 am #5354

>does wonders for Com/Sec solidarity

so much this.

I'll fucking take solidarity and MUH TEAMWORK ROLEPLAY over the double dosage of paranoia some people want sec to have.

by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:59 am #5356

Security Antag ruins Security interdepartmental cooperation as well as destroys Security-Crew relations. During Sec Antag people had no incentive to trust Security in arrests since half the time you would likely end up being tossed out an airlock or killed, I know this from personnel experience.

We have only just begun to make headway in increasing trust between Sec and the crew, if we return Sec Antag than all of this work will be destroyed.

I have had more than enough rounds of getting backstabbed by my fellow Officers, Sec Antag is not fun for anyone except the one antag Sec Officer.

by **Helios** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:44 am #5361

Steelpoint wrote:Security Antag ruins Security interdepartmental cooperation as well as destroys Security-Crew relations. During Sec Antag people had no incentive to trust Security in arrests since half the time you would likely end up being tossed out an airlock or killed, I know this from personnel experience.

We have only just begun to make headway in increasing trust between Sec and the crew, if we return Sec Antag than all of this work will be destroyed.

I have had more than enough rounds of getting backstabbed by my fellow Officers, Sec Antag is not fun for anyone except the one antag Sec Officer.

This is a controversial question, but is the complete trust of sec necessarily a good thing?

by **Brotemis** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:53 am #5362

Paprka has the right idea of how antag sec could and should be. The idea of a loose cannon or an otherwise crooked cop can work really. The only issue is that it would be governed like purged AI's. You can pretty much do as you please short of random murder or murder boning. I, as a changeling HOS once rallied security against A mutineering crew led by greyshirts

by **ExplosiveCrate** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:55 am #5363

Helios wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Security Antag ruins Security interdepartmental cooperation as well as destroys Security-Crew relations. During Sec Antag people had no incentive to trust Security in arrests since half the time you would likely end up being tossed out an airlock or killed, I know this from personnel experience.

We have only just begun to make headway in increasing trust between Sec and the crew, if we return Sec Antag than all of this work will be destroyed.

I have had more than enough rounds of getting backstabbed by my fellow Officers, Sec Antag is not fun for anyone except the one antag Sec Officer.

This is a controversial question, but is the complete trust of sec necessarily a good thing?

If you want to have any security force at all, yes. People won't play security if nobody trusts security, and those that do would only do it for the chance to get free stun guns as an antag and suicide if they aren't. They wouldn't make good nonantag security anyways.

by **ShizCalev** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:57 am #5365

Antag security will bring back a number of competent players who left it because they felt they were being punished by having their experiences in the game limited.

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:25 am #5368

>punished

sec is punishing, antag or not.

by **Psyentific** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:30 am #5371

ShizCalev wrote:Antag security will bring back a number of competent players who left it because they felt they were being punished by having their experiences in the game limited.

imblyings wrote:>punished

sec is punishing, antag or not.

Shitposting aside, I don't like antag sec, for the above reasons. Plus, if you're Sec, half your job is fighting the antags. Yeah, I know, I know. Spacelaw, public safety, et cetera. But really, you got two types of crooks - Petty criminals busting windows for shits and giggs that you can yell at and/or wristslap (fines when?) and grand theft/sabotage from antags. Barfights and stolen captain shit, not a whole lot in between.

by **Vekter** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:49 am #5375

I was around for sec antag. Believe you me, you don't want it back.

by **looping** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:19 am #5381

I'm surprised security antag is winning in the polls.
It'll reinforce the anti-security feelings many players express and will reduce cooperation the departments have with Security.

by **mrpain** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 am #5383

Just turn it back on you carebears.

Sec/Captain antag rounds are FUN.

Doesnt matter which side you're on.

by **looping** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:51 am #5388

I dragged off several prisoners to the execution room, where I proceeded to murder them.
I parapenned the Captain and HoS as a Warden after they found me, I then harmbatonned them screaming out "ICH BIN HAMBUTON"
I then lasered down any Officers I could find in the brig afterwards.

!!FUN!!

Edit: I should probably include that no one expected it and obviously that the prisoners had no way to fight back.
!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!!!FUN!!

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 8:07 am #5392

>Sec/Captain antag rounds are FUN.

each time I get sec antag I will proceed to powergame my very hardest- and I can powergame pretty fucking hard- to abuse sec antag and silently remove as many people from the round as I can.

Do you want to experience that.

Remember, you can't fight back and you'll lose your headset too so you can't yell for help. You're not even being killed, that's too messy of a word for what is a very clinical procedure, almost OOC in it's execution, of simply removing players from the round. And with maint on sibyl being expanded, there are plenty of places to hide bodies forever.

And I won't get banned for this either.

edit- this also gives a legit reason for guncargo sec to exist too.

by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 12, 2014 8:19 am #5394

Fuck, just get a EMP Kit as well so you can stun them, EMP them to kill their headset, then have your way with them.

Sec Antag is piss easy, you can easily kill off your fellow Sec Officers as well as practically anyone else on station, people don't question you carrying around Stun weapons and if your seen with something bad you can easily blame the guy your killing to be a traitor.

Sec Antag is only "FUN" for the antag Officer.

by **Incomptinence** » Mon May 12, 2014 8:26 am #5399

imblyings wrote:>Sec/Captain antag rounds are FUN.

each time I get sec antag I will proceed to powergame my very hardest- and I can powergame pretty fucking hard- to abuse sec antag and silently remove as many people from the round as I can.

Do you want to experience that.

Remember, you can't fight back and you'll lose your headset too so you can't yell for help. You're not even being killed, that's too messy of a word for what is a very clinical procedure, almost OOC in it's execution, of simply removing players from the round. And with maint on sibyl being expanded, there are plenty of places to hide bodies forever.

And I won't get banned for this either.

edit- this also gives a legit reason for guncargo sec to exist too.

Oh no I am quaking in my boots. Being murdered in the space murder simulator? UNTHINKABLE! ANTAG PROTECT EVERYTHING!

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 8:58 am #5402

>m-my idea of fun is objectively better even though it comes at a severe cost to others

>equating sec antag with simply being murdered in ss13
>implying the problem ends with sec having it easy with killing people

stop being dumb

by **Incomptinence** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:14 am #5403

Never said my opinion was superior. Several people in favour of protect authority have told me I cannot even hold my opinion and have played the same game.

Equating sec antag hysteria with fears over being murdered? Damn right I am none of these tales of dread have been about Officer McTraitor quietly stealing the mag boots, they have been about being killed or in your case promising to bring your worst and somehow kill my belly yellow. You've threatened me with what I want really.

If that isn't the main issue what is? Trust? Derivative of the above, pretty near non existent and reportedly just starting to blossom for oh months now. If an actual flower had taken this long to bloom it would be dead.

by **MisterPerson** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 am #5406

While the trustworthy sec equals workplace cohesion argument is solid, I personally feel the metagaming negatives and loss of fun situations trump the positives. Antagonists are supposed to be creating fun situations. If they're not, then yeah obviously something should be done, but it's not like sec antag was unfun 100% of the time. The real issue isn't that security themselves can be antag, it's that antags are allowed to do whatever they want. Think about it; if the problem is security silently, efficiently murdering everyone with no chance of them to fight back, then just ban that specific unwanted behavior.

by **Psyentific** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:21 am #5407

Can I re-vote? I don't think I can.

by **Incomptinence** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:27 am #5408

I personally feel some of the worst rounds are created by weak antagonists. Why did research cult and old ling create some of the worst rounds ever? Because they had to do a ton of tedious nonsense to reach a position of strength where they felt they could win. Security and captain antags don't have these issues, well oldling sec probably used to since taking everyone to be sucked off at perma is tedious legwork but even with monkeys to absorb killing 12 to 14 people was a chore back then.

by **Helios** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:21 pm #5481

Vekter wrote:I was around for sec antag. Believe you me, you don't want it back.

I was around for sec antag. Believe you me, I do want it back

by **imblyings** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:44 pm #5487

what, as a victim? as a bystander laughing as sec falls apart? as someone playing sec in the hope of being sec antag?

by **peoplearestrange** » Mon May 12, 2014 7:56 pm #5497

Steelpoint wrote:-snip-
Sec Antag is only "FUN" for the antag Officer.

Also I think its so firmly ingrained in everyone that sec AREN'T antag that they will never be suspected unless they go extremely loud.

Also surely the reasons the captain can't be antag are the same for sec? Because they are in positions of extreme power (or from an IC point of view, they are implanted)

by **Stickymayhem** » Mon May 12, 2014 8:07 pm #5502

Security absolutely should be the only force for good on the station, and be an absolute force for good.

Captain antag, on the other hand, would be acceptable to me since it allows a lot of freedom and would mean more competent people play Captain. Head of Personnel is already literally as powerful as the Captain as an antag (parapen+c4 the cap and oh look you own the station now) so there isn't much of a reason that the Captain shouldn't join in the fun.

I think security should be kept non-antag for the sake of the good people who play security and the station in general. A good security team is becoming far more frequent now, and it's a cycle that improves since a good team makes people want to play security and have a positive experience and the teams get better more frequently. It's a slow process but so much of the stigma associated with security and the constant bullshit that, while funny on occasion, became monotonous round after round routine is finally leaving. Please don't fuck that up.

by **mrpain** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:30 am #5598

I'm sorry. I forgot people on this server play to win and not the experience.

One of my fondest SS13 memories was being a captain on /vg/station. The HoS ended up being a traitor and was trying to arrest me to try to assassinate me. I somehow ended up breaking free, he ran off, and the station and security were essentially divided in two trying to kill off both sides.

Shit happens. Dying and getting dunked on is part of SS13. Sometimes its aggravating. Sometimes its hilarious. Just sit back and let the good times roll. You'll enjoy the game more that way.

by **RogerWilco** » Tue May 13, 2014 7:44 am #5611

People seem to forget that they can't control everything in this game and then whine when they get killed.

by **imblyings** » Tue May 13, 2014 9:28 am #5626

>I'm sorry. I forgot people on this server play to win and not the experience.

>security being less painful for the few that play sec somehow equates to playing to win
>using catchphrases you don't understand
>double paranoia on top of a punishing job is a better experience than an experience involving good teamwork

>People seem to forget that they can't control everything in this game and then whine when they get killed.

it's about not making sec shit again.

/tg/Station 13

Security antag: yay or nay?