Cult desperately needs a guide

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon May 26, 2014 10:45 pm #9226

The single reason why newcult sucks most of the time is that people are working off the old wiki entry and not enough people know how it works. Almost every round someone accidentally tries to convert someone on their own and ends up revealing the cult as a result. Even I barely know how it works because with communication being risky, most cultists don't bother explaining the new stuff to new cultists.

Someone who is fully fluent in the new cult really needs to write even a rudimentary guide. Or explain to me how it works so that I can write it.

I'd happily work with someone on this, but it really needs to get done.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon May 26, 2014 11:15 pm #9232

I was the one who revised the old cult guide. I keep meaning to work on it but haven't rolled roundstart cultist in weeks.

Incomptinence · Mon May 26, 2014 11:28 pm

Admins turning guide writers into antags so they can write a good guide would be a reasonable solution.
We don't have many people tending the guides so guide quality shouldn't be left up to random chance, also provides an incentive.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Mon May 26, 2014 11:29 pm #9238

Remember, the wiki can be edited by anyone.

There's nothing stopping you from writing your own guide to w/e.

Incomptinence · Mon May 26, 2014 11:31 pm

Can doesn't mean will, as evidenced in this case by an outdated guide. I personally have not had cult experience since plas steel shells were introduced.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:59 am #9273

I did a ghetto update, mostly of the cult side of things. It still needs a lot of work, especially on:

- Constructs and the uses thereof
- Anti-cult measures (holy water, etc. Also means the "Guide to fighting a cult" page is largely out of date as well.)

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:04 pm #9577

I see Malkevin had made the Sacrifice Cult -change.
I see he described the changes in the pull request.
He also made a changelog entry about the changes.

I don't know if this is too much to ask after coders have made their work, but couldn't he just have visited the Cult-page and copypasted these exact same changelog-entries there and removed the old info which didn't apply anymore (in other words, the things he removed from the code and was an expert in the subject by now) so we could have the most correct and up-to-date info on the wiki?

I uploaded the changelog info. I hope Malkevin (or someone who has any experience in new cult) comes and just removes the old info. The new info is there now. Maybe needs a simple guide anymore.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:43 pm #9580

The responsibility for a guide befalls the person making these RADICAL changes to cult in my opinion...

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:29 pm #9588

I have incorporated the changelog into the guide and copied over the guide to fighting a cult (minus the parts about execution). Please look at the guide and see whether anything is inaccurate or needs expanding on.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Wed May 28, 2014 7:35 pm #9592

paprika wrote:The responsibility for a guide befalls the person making these RADICAL changes to cult in my opinion...

If you're going to drastically alter game mechanics, don't make people have to figure it out themselves.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu May 29, 2014 4:37 pm #9749

kosmos wrote:I see Malkevin had made the Sacrifice Cult -change.
I see he described the changes in the pull request.
He also made a changelog entry about the changes.

I don't know if this is too much to ask after coders have made their work, but couldn't he just have visited the Cult-page and copypasted these exact same changelog-entries there and removed the old info which didn't apply anymore (in other words, the things he removed from the code and was an expert in the subject by now) so we could have the most correct and up-to-date info on the wiki?

I uploaded the changelog info. I hope Malkevin (or someone who has any experience in new cult) comes and just removes the old info. The new info is there now. Maybe needs a simple guide anymore.

Psyentific wrote:
paprika wrote:The responsibility for a guide befalls the person making these RADICAL changes to cult in my opinion...
If you're going to drastically alter game mechanics, don't make people have to figure it out themselves.

JESUS H FUCKING CHRIST!! HOW FUCKING ENTITLED ARE YOU LOT?!?!?!
"Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Sadbutt arse fucked cult, just like Malkevin said he would, why oh why didn't we listen to him??
Malkevin please save us and make a better cult that isn't either rev with magics or extended with maybe a bang but probably fuck all except an early shuttle call because the singularity was accidently released due to boredom."

"Wahhhhhhhh!!! You need to write a guide now because we're too stupid and lazy to read your in depth and well documented changelogs on your publically available pull request and commit notes."

You know, I was planning on doing a complete rewrite of the cult guide (because it really needs one, its bloated to the point of being unreadable) tomorrow but now, thanks to you three ungrateful cunts, I'm absolutely fucked off.
I'm sick to fucking death of this community because of shits like you, so now you can all fuck off.

I'm heavily dyslexic, that means its really fucking hard for me to write in readable English, its a lot of fucking effort on my part to write a guide but until I saw the above three posts I was willing to write the outline of the guide and answer any questions someone might have to assist them writing the guide, but because you lot are not only completely bone idle but also suffer from a huge Asperger's syndrome level of entitlement complex I haven't seen since fucking Carn I'm done.

I'm completely and utterly done.

No cult guide

No cult phase 2 (which is where the real meat of the overhaul was going to be)

No cargo overhaul phase 2, no preprodlathe (which was going to be a replacement/addition to the autolathe, a machine that would link to the RnD system and allow cargo to print off researched tech (and probably normal tools) through a fancy interface that featured Quantity Amounts and Categorised Lists.)

So in short,
Write your own fucking guide and don't even think about asking me for help because I'm not willing to do that anymore.
So pull your fucking thumbs out your head filled colon, go to the wiki, sign up, press the edit button and mash the keyboard.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu May 29, 2014 5:01 pm #9755

Its not the responsibility of a coder to write up wiki guides, as much as you want to spin it. If you really demand a guide to cult, write one yourself with all the information you have. Malk did a, as we know, very good changelog of all the changes he made.

Also no, copy pasting the changelog would not be good enough, there is a difference between a guide and a changelog.

I mean, when I saw the old Security guides, did I whine to the coders that touched Sec that they should go to the wiki and update it? No, I updated the pages myself.

That's my opinion anyway.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Thu May 29, 2014 5:30 pm #9756

Shouldn't there just be something like the sprite thread where a coder can request help writing up a guide? I sincerely doubt that it's very hard - I mean I could probably do it.

Remie Richards · Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 pm

The problem with coder written guides is, our time can be better spent adding new things, fixing bugs, polishing up the big thing we just got added that you now want a guide for.
Some will be really grateful for the guide, others will complain that you weren't fixing bugs/adding new things.

You can only do one or the other really, and considering code is what coders tend to know best, we choose to stick with code most of the time.

There's also the fact that what may seem intuitive and easy to understand to the coder who wrote the code, may not seem intuitive to a player who most likely has not seen the code, and as has no idea if what they're doing is what they're supposed to be doing.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Thu May 29, 2014 5:46 pm #9760

Alright I'm going to have a look at the changelog and see if I can write the thing up myself.

I'm a decent writer and I've been looking into helping out on the wiki, so I'll give it a go.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 29, 2014 6:51 pm #9770

Holy fucking shit you lazy entitled shitfucks do you even read anything?

I have already rehauled the cult guide, it can be found here: http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Cult_magic

I'm not going to pretend it can't use tightening and cleaning up and fact checking because guess what, you ass blasts? I'M NOT GETTING PAID FOR THIS SHIT and did it in my spare time after literally no one else bothered to. (Except for kosmos and Malkevin, thank you for being the only people who actually read and helped out with the fucking thing.) It is a first draft. (Second actually.) I also tried to do as little actual rewriting as possible because Brotemis wrote the original guide, he had at one point expressed interest in revising it, and I didn't want to shit on his work.

I would be happy to make edits if the cult guide is "bloated to the point of being unreadable," I just need to know which parts are bloated and why. (Is it because I added the guide to fighting cult back in? It was stupid to have it as a separate page, that separate page was out of date anyway, and I cut large portions of it anyway.)

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu May 29, 2014 7:17 pm #9773

Great.

Now cult's gonna be stuck in that stasis of "oh it's in the progress of being overhauled, better not touch it"

Because you asshats are douchebags and get all whiny when someone doesn't hand you a wiki page on a golden platter every time a change is made.

read the fucking changelog for once. this wouldn't of happened if you used your fucking eyeballs for once.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 29, 2014 7:43 pm #9775

holy shit another person who doesn't read

THE GUIDE WAS ALREADY REVISED

kosmos copied over the changelog, I took the changelog and turned it into actual guide

I can already predict what's going to happen too, a stasis of "gee someone should revise the cult page to be less bloated" "that'd be awesome" "yep" "why isn't anyone doing this" "iono why don't you do it" "you do it" "nah bro" etc

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Thu May 29, 2014 8:05 pm #9779

Goofball never said the guide hadn't been redone, bandit. Thanks, but please calm down.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:25 pm #9796

Fair enough, but none of the people bitching (except kosmos, but he wasn't really bitching) took any initiative to fix the guide themselves.

However, it is now a non-issue, because I went through and chopped a lot of the bloat out of the guide. Subtle took some out as well. If there are more areas that you think could use tightening, or conversely expansion, please let me know.

Post by **oranges** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:56 pm #9799

Can we calm down a bit please? There's no need to be throwing our toys out of the cot just yet.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:03 pm #9803

oranges wrote:Can we calm down a bit please? There's no need to be throwing our toys out of the cot just yet.

Wow, yeah. This.

As far as wiki entries go, if a coder takes it upon himself to update the page after a big change, that's a bonus. However, it's not a requirement. It's not like Terraria devs go and update http://terraria.gamepedia.com after every update, same goes for every other game wiki that comes to mind.

If a coder is going to take the time to make an update, test it, make a pull request, do a changelog entry... I don't think it's too much to ask the community to write up a small description on a page and hit submit.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:12 pm #9805

Malkevin, it's irresponsible coding to make large changes and not make guides, or at least edit pre-existing guides. Shirking it off on other people and watching your shit get merged before there's an edited/new guide is so lazy and I'm wondering why you're even bothering to accuse people of being autists and entitled after your bold/large sperging. Maximum autism.

It's called being considerate if you're going to make huge changes to shit. Players shouldn't have to hunt all over the forums, github, etc to learn how to play things. That's what the wiki is for. If you can't make a guide, ask someone else, because assuming it'll just 'get made eventually by someone' is dumb as fuck. Should have updated the wiki before or immediately after the updates were made. Hopefully you've learned something but my optimism for that is extremely low after that impressive display of manbaby ranting, blaming the players for your fuckup.

Post by **Vekter** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:30 pm #9807

paprika wrote:Malkevin, it's irresponsible coding to make large changes and not make guides, or at least edit pre-existing guides. Shirking it off on other people and watching your shit get merged before there's an edited/new guide is so lazy and I'm wondering why you're even bothering to accuse people of being autists and entitled after your bold/large sperging. Maximum autism.

It's called being considerate if you're going to make huge changes to shit. Players shouldn't have to hunt all over the forums, github, etc to learn how to play things. That's what the wiki is for. If you can't make a guide, ask someone else, because assuming it'll just 'get made eventually by someone' is dumb as fuck. Should have updated the wiki before or immediately after the updates were made. Hopefully you've learned something but my optimism for that is extremely low after that impressive display of manbaby ranting, blaming the players for your fuckup.

The coders don't often make the guides. Which is fucking sad when you consider the coders probably know the game better than anyone.

Re the second paragraph: Mining changes. Nuff said.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu May 29, 2014 11:20 pm #9813

Let's be realistic though: no coder does it right away. (Some people do it when prodded, but almost never right away.) It's not really fair to blame Malkevin for something that pretty much never happens.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:00 am #9819

OK, so whichever person just tried to redo the cult guide, I reverted it. I appreciate that people care, but you can't just go in and delete literally everything. In particular, you deleted the entire section about deconverting the cult, which is most certainly not "valueless as a reference," which makes me think that you didn't even read it.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:36 am #9827

Excellent contribution.

drovidi · Post by **drovidi** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:49 am #9829

Bgo, I re-added my contributions while keeping the cult-fighting section, and you reverted it.
No, your baby is not 'completely accurate'. It has, among other things, teleport other talismans, shell talismans, and invoker count requirements for teleport other runes, all of which I tested and fixed in my rewrite, which does not feature the cult-of-madness-style organization of the inaccurate one you keep reverting to.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 30, 2014 3:31 am #9832

I've incorporated your additions into the guide. If you have suggestions for re-organization please feel free to mention them. Most of the stuff I preserved wasn't even "my baby," it was Brotemis (I think)'s original version of the guide, which I didn't want to just trash outright.

TheTerbs · Post by **TheTerbs** » Fri May 30, 2014 8:07 am #9856

Wait what did you fuckasses do to cult

Did you add a rune tab

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri May 30, 2014 10:59 am #9865

Paprika: press the ingame changelog button, then press ctrl-f and search for my name or even search for the word cult, then I dare you to come back here and say I'm irresponsible for not documenting my changes.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that I don't owe you a single thing, I'm volunteering my own personal time to try and make the game better.
I'm not getting paid for it, I'm not getting a qualification out of it, the skills and expirience are only semi useful in the professional world.

When I did the first update to cult I literally spent every free moment I had on coding and testing the changes rock solid for a week. I pushed myself to the point where I was actually suffering from exhaustion for the next two weeks, during which time I took over someone else's school... which was in the middle of a win8 upgrade (what a broken piece of shit that is), I've basically only just recently had things wind down enough to the point I can relax.
So long story short I've been fucking busy, I'm an adult - I'm not a teenager with tons of free time anymore.

The only thing I ask for is a bit of appreciation and consideration, not acting like an overly entitled child expecting me to act like a wage slave and do everything and every thing

kosmos · Post by **kosmos** » Fri May 30, 2014 11:18 am #9866

Malkevin wrote:I'm completely and utterly done.

I'm sorry, my words were too harsh. I didn't know you have a hard time writing english, I do too. This is part of the reason why I haven't written the guide myself, the second part is I've never properly played as a part of a cult.
But this is not about you or me, the wiki is all about the new players. It just really, really bugs me to see that even 2 months after your work has been merged into the code, not a single person has bothered to write a new guide to help people out with it. I just didn't know anyone else to turn to but the expert on the subject, you. I admit I could've spent a few days on itself, reading your changelogs and trying to win the antag-lottery or get "accidentally" converted to gather info but sorry I chose the easy way.
I am not entitled to anything, I just feel like we should be taking more advantage of the wiki to help make the game's learning curve a little less steep for the new players, and to get the full experience of the new sacrifice cult like you intended.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:01 pm #9869

I'm sorry kosmos, I really shouldn't have lumped you in with paprika and Psyentific, you atleast tried to improve the guide and did actually ask politely for my help.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri May 30, 2014 5:12 pm #9927

Sorry Malk, you've been beaten up a couple of times for trying to make big improvements to the game, and you really didn't deserve it.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri May 30, 2014 5:44 pm #9933

Malk's a cool dude, we need to be nicer to him.

420goslingboy69 · Fri May 30, 2014 11:21 pm

If you guys want, I will write a guide to cult. I can actually use my vast fucking all IC knowledge for a good reason.

Spoiler:

Okay, so I found the wiki/guide and it's full of powergaming garbage.

Is this facetious? What the fuck man
Hulk with x-ray vision is even more overpowered

Get hulk and xray within five minutes of roundstart
Detect cultists through walls
If they're so eager to spill blood for their god, why not help them? Punch into their hideout and smash them all
Laugh as they try to talisman you while you punch, cuff and force-feed the cabal into oblivion
Continue laughing as OOC whines about your endeavors for the next few rounds

horrible

you will piss people off no matter what you do.

pessimism for security is not a good idea

oh good i know i'm not metagaming but i can toe the line about other stuff

Spoiler:

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri May 30, 2014 11:51 pm #10005

You can tell I didn't write it because there's nothing involving Cargo.

420goslingboy69 · Fri May 30, 2014 11:59 pm

Psyentific wrote:You can tell I didn't write it because there's nothing involving Cargo.

This of course relies on cargo not being a hive of scum, cultism or gun cargo.

that sounded like you

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 12:03 am #10008

No, I had nothing to do with this.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:44 am #10024

That section is verbatim from "Guide to fighting a cult" page, which I merged because there is no reason to have two separate pages for the cult game mode. Admittedly it is based on the version of cult where deconversions do not exist, but otherwise I don't particularly see much wrong with it. The x-ray/hulk thing is Oldman Robustin, go whine at him.

The part about metagaming I added in because otherwise shitfucks would do it. There is plenty of precedent elsewhere on the wiki about not doing shit that will get you banned (bombing the station, monkeying people with genetics SEs, etc.)

420goslingboy69 · Sat May 31, 2014 3:17 am

It basically is just incredibly heavy on just winning. Just stopping them from getting green-text. Nothing else. No fun or flair.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:42 am #10045

There is no real other alternative for Security to pursue in Cult rounds, as noted that guide was written up back when Cultists were unable to be deconverted.

Laid back Sec does not work in Cult rounds, as the guide says, keep the friendly Sec for non cult/rev rounds.

Also I fail to see why people get surprised or even disgusted when Security goes balls to the wall, it happens all the time in real life anyway in very hostile situations.

(Stopping "green text" and surviving as Sec go hand in hand, chances are the cult have to sacrifice a Officer)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:46 am #10102

Malkevin wrote:What you seem to fail to grasp is that I don't owe you a single thing, I'm volunteering my own personal time to try and make the game better.
I'm not getting paid for it, I'm not getting a qualification out of it, the skills and expirience are only semi useful in the professional world.

>He does it for free

Not being a lazy when you code isn't asking a lot tbh. I don't even care about your fucking changes I care that the community isn't flung ass backwards when there's no update to the guide which everyone fucking reads when it comes to these large game changes to a game mode like cult that actually rested on stealth converting early round a lot and still does.

Shitting all over stuff and being like 'oh well you don't check github or the changelog not my problem' is fucking stupid, the guide should always be up to date with gamemodes and crucial job functions. For example: When I didn't know how to get my ore out of a minebot when that update first hit? I looked up the guide. A lot of other people had this problem until I directed them to the guide as well and then -they- felt stupid because it was their fault for not going to the guide.

If I drag someone onto a convert rune and nothing happens I'm going to feel cheated because that's what the outdated guide said to do and that's how I've been doing it forever but if the guide on how to play cult is already updated I have nobody to blame but myself for not freshening up. And I'm not the only person who feels this way, so MAYBE this will get through that thick fucking ego of yours and you'll understand why some people are upset with you about these changes.

Acting like waaah, you're all entitled, I do it for free, etc is such a shit eater attitude especially if you herald your contributions like the work of blood and tears. I'm not even asking you to get back to work, slave, I'm asking you to, you know, BEFORE you call this done, and it gets merged, prepare a guide, or at least set apart some time after it's done to work on a guide. If you're busy? Don't fucking submit it or call it done because for a long period of time those cult rounds without a proper guide are going to be shit. Imagine if ergo's new mining didn't have a fucking guide, that's really the simplest example I can give you here. Guides should be the last thing you do no doubt, but they should still at least be on the agenda before changes go out man.

Again, you're not reading me here when I say you should have made a guide, it's a fucking fact that it comes with the whole 'decent, considerate coding' thing that you seem to lack at the moment. Good, make all these changes, put in the effort to make cult better for everyone, people will appreciate it, but not when you fucking half-ass it and leave out something as basic as a guide. If you have problems with typing english and all that? Stop with the excuses and start finding people to help you with things instead of being so fucking stuck-up about it. You don't make the game better by making changes and leaving the guide outdated for new players or players who aren't git/code inclined. Which we have a fucking ton of, believe it or not.

Stop throwing around that word 'entitled' too, it has nothing to do with entitlement, you accusatory asshole. You sound like an admin whining about people disrespecting them like respect and asskissing comes inherently with donating your time.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:52 am #10105

Wow, where's that giant list of TOLD STATUS when you need it?

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat May 31, 2014 11:51 am #10192

Lazy?

Let's see...
I wrote the design doc up over a couple of days
I then had a three week feedback period on that design doc
I then spent a week of solid coding, bug testing and documented every single change I made, during all my free time for that week and even some during a bit of down time at work.

I'm telling you this not to brag or be praised or even "woe look at me", I'm telling you this to give you some perspective, to try and give idea of how much work I'd already put into it.

But obviously you and Psy are too much of an inconsiderate manbabys that you can't pull your heads out your arses long enough to do that.

I hope the pair of you end up working in call centres, a fate I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies but you two need the experience to see what's its like to have to deal with whiney entitled cunts that expect everything handed to them.

And yes, you I am calling you an entitled cunt because that's what you *ARE*
You are an entitled cunt because you're expecting and demanding I do everything when updating the wiki is SOMETHING YOU CAN DO YOURSELF.

Instead of being a whining fucking bitch and sitting in your own shit filled nappy for two months you could've read the INGAME CHANGELOG yourself and updated the guide YOURSELF.
The tools and resources are available to you, I don't even think the wiki requires registration.

There's nothing stopping you from reading the changelog entry, or even pming me and asking questions, other than your own laziness and apathy.
Expecting other people to do the work for you, and moaning when they don't, when you're completely capable yet unwilling to attempt the work yourself is the very definition of being a self entitled cunt.

When Toady releases a new version of Dwarf Fortress do you think he personally goes through the wiki and updates it himself?
No, the community updates it themselves.

At one point we had an active team of wiki contributors, what happened to them?

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sat May 31, 2014 12:17 pm #10194

Holy fucking shit psy/paps, I get really annoyed when I hear 'entitled' thrown around as a buzzword but for once they're right.

You're playing a game made by volunteers, run by volunteers, for free.

Do you realize that malk, and all the other coders/admins/spriters/wiki contributers/wiki admins/hosts/whoever volunteers to do what they do on their own time. They don't get paid and they have no obligation to continue doing whatever.

I actually (probably) know how malf feels.

I'm in the process of writing a gamemode from scratch and it's very time and resource-intensive. It's a big project that you do because you want to, to make the game more fun for everyone else. Along the way you'll have issues that pop up that you'll need to fix or find a way around. Problems will come up, shit won't work, runtimes will appear fnr, undefined variable, something doesn't work and does not produce a runtime, etc. By the end you want to get it out the door and finish it, and when I finish my gamemode, I would probably take a short break from coding, since coding is actually very fucking stressful, as with anything where one fuckup makes everything die and you get vague hints on what you did wrong. I wanted to do a bunch of other stuff but I knew that if I did, the gamemode would never get done, so I'm stuck on one thing.

So someday I'll finish, and maybe people will like it.

Then two very loud people will scream at me for failing to make a "little" guide on the wiki, that anyone could've done after playing a round or reading the sourcecode.

Except the joke's on you since I already made a wiki entry,
but formatting is horrible and having to dredge up every single thing about the gamemode that might not even be important since designers think differently than players.

I can't blame malk for screaming 'fuck you' when you literally could've made the guide.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:24 pm #10255

The joke's not on me, it proves that it's a fucking easy thing to do and any competent coder could have done it. You actually proved my point, Neerti. Your game mode isn't even done yet and you have a guide, yet changes to a pre-existing game mode don't? Come on.

You know as well as anyone that making large gamemode-changing changes then saying 'do it yourself' to a simple guide is lazy as fuck. It's not something you HAVE to do but it makes you a shitty coder nonetheless. Again, I'm not even saying YOU have to do it if you have problems wth being physically able, but me expecting that any competent coder would at least ensure it's a thing SOMEONE is working on is hardly being fucking entitled.

It's fucking hilarious that you're trying this hard to excuse your laziness, Malk, it really is. If you're going to be a whining baby about it when I'm completely right, and not even bother to refute any of my points about why it's inconsiderate coding AND lazy, you're better off not making changes tbh.

Saying "anyone can do it, so I don't have to! stop being entitled!" is so fucking dumb. Stop half-assing shit or get out.

Coming out of the gate whining 'entitled!' because people asked for a guide and implying that your laziness is somehow MY mistake or undeserved sense of entitlement to come to expect a higher standard of coder etiquette is fucking pathetic.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:27 pm #10256

Video game developers don't write up the wiki's on their game's.

Malk fulfilled all the requirements I would expect of someone making a large scale change to a game mode, by posting a in-depth changelog on every change he made to the game mode. That is more than enough.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:29 pm #10257

Because most games start with tutorials or have manuals that the developers make.

Which is what the wiki guides are.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat May 31, 2014 4:34 pm #10259

But he wrote a changelog, which was highly in depth, and detailed exactly everything that was changed or altered in every way.

Look, when I was reading the Security guides on the wiki, I noticed they were out of date, and lacked critical information. What did I do? I complained to the coders who made the changes to stop being entitled, and go update the wiki. In reality I updated the wiki, and gave my own hints and tips along the way. Really easy and enjoyable.

If the issue is of such great concern to you, write up the wiki guide. If not you then someone will inevitable do it as is the nature of wiki's for popular/semi-popular games.