/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:46 am**

Seriously, is it just me? It seems like traitor and stealthy antag roles are nearly impossible lately. I can hardly go five minutes without some assistant disarming some gear off of me and beating the shit out of me or some cargo tech armed to the teeth catching me in maint. It's starting to get annoying getting killed five minutes in and having to wait out the rest of the round.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:00 am**

If I can't have nice things neither should you.

Sad to say but everybody wants traitor shit and a reason to robust someone.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:25 am**

To avoid the murderbone you must become the murderbone.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:46 pm**

Git gud or die tryin fam

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:00 pm**

Buff bullets and weaponry to deal more damage on unarmoured targets. This way traitors weapons can be effectively buffed.

>but what if they have armour
That's an obstacle they have to overcome and fight security to get

>what if they get armour/sec help
You're SOL then (nah just kidding). If it happens too often start reporting it if the same validhunter is given free stuff round after round.

At this point, if it was not for the datum antag freeze I'd implement new items with new mechanics, since anything outside of stun based combat most people cannot handle.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:05 pm**

Antagonists are allowed to do anything and everything to silently pile up as many bodies as possible.

Therefore any and all crewmembers may respond in kind.

We're not going to tell people they cant fight back.

Also, as always, there is nothing for the crew to do, so if course they valid hunt.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:06 pm**

"light" "rp"

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:09 pm**

My point is that traitors are 100% from RP so it would be nonsensical to force people to roleplay out their reactions to them while the traitoe is going for his highscore. Nobody wants to sit in deadchat for 50 minutes because he pretended to not know what an esword was/ran in circles begging for mercy.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:13 pm**

It was more a general comment at the state of the server.

Its always the same argument with the same group that will screech "HUH BUT ITS LIGHT RP SO FUCK OFF BACK TO BAY" with a similar response from the other side telling them to go back to Nox.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:17 pm**

Discourage the validhunting by making the traitor tools either *much* more effective than the makeshift shit the validhunters can get ahold of to lynch the target or making to the available tools to the validhunters less effective.

See: duelblade mcmurderizer wastes 16 TC as he is tapped by a grayshirt wielding a stunprod+cable cuffs that took him less than 2 minutes to craft.

Can't stop the behavior, but you can make it harder to actually achieve.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:36 pm**

obligatory get good post

act less like a traitor when you're going "stealth"

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:51 pm**

IcePacks wrote:obligatory get good post

act less like a traitor when you're going "stealth"

get stunnprodded and searched by a greyshirt vigilante in maint anyway

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:29 pm**

that's acting like a traitor

if you want to go stealthy, you make all appearances (effects and otherwise) as normal as possible

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:31 pm**

I remember Oldman posting a solution to this problem earlier.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I agree.

Every objective should meet a "does this actually count at antagonism?" test for a non-head crewmember.

Traitor rounds already are among the least enjoyable for me and 50% of it is the fact that half of the people responsible for driving conflict in the round and creating a sufficient critical mass of chaos (IMO this is ESSENTIAL for a decent traitor round, if only one traitor is actually doing overt shit then every door he hacks, person he attacks, area he trespasses gets maximum attention from AI/borgs/sec/heads/validhunters. If you get "maximum attention" I guarantee that your round isn't going to be fun, you either camp out in some false-wall area of maint. or you get dogpiled the moment someones recognizes you. Nothing is more disgusting than doing something like stealing a sec body out of medbay and settling down in some dark corner of maint only to see 3-4 people approaching, you bust out and juke them only to see 3-4 more coming from another direction, yo go full yakety only to realize the AI has bolted every maint exit and now you've got 2 secborgs coming in behind you... one of the worst feelings in the game of when half the station hunts you down and ends your traitor round early for some middle-tier crime. Hitting that critical mass of getting the detective busy at a murder scene, HoS investigating comms, two officers reporting to a cry for help above chapel, another officer and warden responding to a perma breakin, so that maybe just MAYBE when you bash your way into xenobio for some dangerous slime cores - you don't have half the station coming to cave your head in the moment someone complains about you on radio.

Anyway I digress, encourage traitors to do traitor shit (either an act of violence or elaborate sabotage) and I would even reduce the likelihood of getting an "escape" objective and add a few more "glorious deaths".

If all the antagonists act suitably antagonistic, valid hunting isn't a problem because of all the problems already on the station.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:47 pm**

tl;dr Don't be boring, antags

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:53 pm**

If we buff antagonist gear, they just murderbone more. Really, it's the mindset of the players. Remember that other people are in the round as well as you, and you should treat them with courtesy and respect - just because they rolled traitor and you didn't, that doesn't mean you should slipcuffspace them when you see their balloon. Before doing something, consider how they might feel about it - it's not hard.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:00 pm**

I think that going farther in either direction, 2 months ago there was a problem because nothing ever happened because they were acting in your way Nightingale, which made it considerably boring. But when there's absolute chaos so people can't play slower jobs any round because the station is flooded with plasma, there's also problems.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:03 pm**

There's a fine line between "think about others' feelings" and "don't do anything interesting", you're right. It's possible to do something interesting whilst still doing it well, though - instead of shooting someone dead with a revolver, emote pointing it at them and get them to surrender. (Make them kill your target, claim you have their family hostage or something.) Instead of lynching the heads of staff, put them on trial and execute them at the end. Negotiate with the wizard, don't just tase-and-lase them.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:23 pm**

TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:35 pm**

Polaris.
But tg has always been light to medium RP, with the 'light' end on Sybil and the 'medium' end on Basil. We're not quite "no running in the halls", but we're nowhere near Nox or Goon.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:39 pm**

Nothing makes me groan more than some Urist McGreyshit being armed to the teeth with stunprod, cuffs, and soap/slips from roundstart before any danger has been present. Even then, a common behavior of people upon seeing an antag is usually 'Zip zop doopity yakity sax and disarm spam so I can dunk him' rather than 'Oh shit this guy has gun he's gonna waste me if I stay here.' Realistically, you can't really control these behaviors without crossing the line into groanworthy heavy RP territory.

But the best way to remedy it would be gameplay modifications that indirectly punish this behavior. Something like

J_Madison wrote:Buff bullets and weaponry to deal more damage on unarmoured targets. This way traitors weapons can be effectively buffed.

>but what if they have armour
That's an obstacle they have to overcome and fight security to get

>what if they get armour/sec help
You're SOL then (nah just kidding). If it happens too often start reporting it if the same validhunter is given free stuff round after round.

At this point, if it was not for the datum antag freeze I'd implement new items with new mechanics, since anything outside of stun based combat most people cannot handle.

I'd like something like this that sort of punishes someone for charging into something stupid that can get them killed. I'd rather a gunshot be expected to nearly incapacitate unarmored people. As it is now I think players can charge forth because nothing is actually deadly to them, it's just critical existence failure that only comes into effect when HP reaches '0' which can be just healed in under a minute in Medbay.

Probably wounds in general should really be punishing to receive and lay you out in medbay for a significan't chunk of time. Like bullets being emergency room inducing things that involve stopping bleeding and needing to remove bullets - but that's a whole other ballpark of features and mechanics.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:41 pm**

InsaneHyena wrote:TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.

Or we could reverse the decay by banning people like you.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:42 pm**

The problem with nerfing assistant stuff, is that you nerf other things unintentionally.
Because cultists have to use stunprods and cablecuffs because they have no stun.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:51 pm**

Simple. You simply remove the stunprod.

You have a 20 TC uplink for a reason. It's not a concern if you are unable to complete your "difficult mission" using none of the tools you are provided.

It isn't an accomplishment to screw in nuts and bolts without using a wrench when you have access to seven different wrenches.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:57 pm**

leibniz wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.
Or we could reverse the decay by banning people like you.

sure, we could go full retard and start handing out hypocritical bans to players a few people don't like

banning should never be the solution in a sandbox this big

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:58 pm**

J_Madison wrote:Simple. You simply remove the stunprod.

You have a 20 TC uplink for a reason. It's not a concern if you are unable to complete your "difficult mission" using none of the tools you are provided.

It isn't an accomplishment to screw in nuts and bolts without using a wrench when you have access to seven different wrenches.

So then how do cultists do anything?
They have no stuns, all they'll have is a sword which lets the person run away and yell "CULTISTS IN SCIENCE MAINT"

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:03 pm**

Helios wrote:
J_Madison wrote:Simple. You simply remove the stunprod.

You have a 20 TC uplink for a reason. It's not a concern if you are unable to complete your "difficult mission" using none of the tools you are provided.

It isn't an accomplishment to screw in nuts and bolts without using a wrench when you have access to seven different wrenches.
So then how do cultists do anything?
They have no stuns, all they'll have is a sword which lets the person run away and yell "CULTISTS IN SCIENCE MAINT"

You return the tools for stunning.

Doesn't have to be the same tools they had before, you can do a bolt with a monkey wrench instead of a spanner.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:13 pm**

Sometimes I ignore obvious pennings/flashings if they're far enough away/not happening in my departmente, or if I randomly rob someone as a mime and discover an esword, I may put it back.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:01 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:Polaris.but we're nowhere near Nox or Goon.

You must not play on goon then. Their regular server has more RP than tg now. They even have a medium RP server.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:24 pm**

i roleplay every round

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:25 pm**

Well that's mostly because on Goon, nobody really gives a fuck. You see a guy dragging the captain into maint, you go the other way because you have shit to do. If security manages to catch you, rather than just blasting you out an airlock they take what traitor shit you had and tell you to be good.

It's pretty great for all involved parties.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:30 pm**

I decided instead of just whining I would give real solutions, in order of most to least likely

DOABLE

1. Accept that SS13, especially on /tg/station, is primarily an action game. People might want to disagree with me but I dont think anyone can seriously claim that our code is structured to facilitate roleplay, as most of our game modes are death matches.

2. Add scarier PVE stuff. People are bored and validhunting because nothing else is happening. An existential threat quickly curbs validhunting (see: away missions, people dont even blink when the traitor gear comes out to help). Jobs would have more purpose if there was damage/injury to respond to outside of the traitors. tl;dr station is too safe

3. Add an endgoal for the station. Crew objectives would give people stuff to do.

UNLIKELY

4. Stop nerfing civillian stuff (construction) to balance the death match.

5. Give people more freedom to cause their own drama. Drug running chemists, cargonia, whatever. Unlikely since people tend to adminhelp everything, and low rules is exploited by griefers more than it is used to tell a story.

NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN BELOW THIS LINE

6. Stop coding nothing but new weapons and antags. All the cool toys we make are used to break things, so naturally players look for an excuse to do so.

7. Stop adding more death match modes, remove some of them.

8. Ban the mindless murder sprees. If traitor action resulted in interesting stories for everyone involved, people would play along. As it is, stealing the armory and silently going room to room executing people with 20 players online is a zero sum game in terms of fun.

UNENFORCEABLE: Throw out the concept of valid and work based on sportsmanship (silently permabrigging the traitor who built a giant death machine is bad, killing the boring murderspree guy in the hall is fine).

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:31 pm**

But really there is probably no easy solution since the entire culture here is about making the other guy lose, whether by murder or by adminhelp.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:48 pm**

I really wish people would read up at least a little bit on the Bartle test. Yes, yes, I know you yourself are a super special snowflake who is inbetween all the categories, but the sort of classification tends to work well in practice, no matter how snowflaky you think you are.

People who do valid hunting are simply one type of player. Encourage the other types and the percentage of them will decrease. Simple.

The Bartle test is game design 101, it's not advanced stuff. There are places where it fails and it has its criticisms, but it's a good enough way to macro-organize and understand your playerbase. More advanced techniques tend to be more trouble than they're worth - at least for the size of game I tend to develop.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:54 pm**

leibniz wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.
Or we could reverse the decay by banning people like you.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:32 pm**

When I'm the HoS I (typically) won't perma/execute traitors (doesn't work for other antag types for various reasons), unless they're actually just murderous fucks. Hell, sometimes I've even worked out arrangements with murderers - having a personal attack dog is FUN. Knowing that it's possible they might turn on you is also FUN.
Perma'ing guy that non violently stole the station blueprints or something is just shitty. Take their traitor shit and their pda, tracking implant them and put them out on parole. Sure, they might come back and kill me or some shit, but that's more interesting then just being mlgpr0 greentext denier who dunks all the antags then sits around crying that nothing is going on/wanting a shuttle call.

Posted: **Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:49 pm**

Eh, to be honest whenever I'm tator or wizard or whatever my loadout choice is determined first by 'what will permenantly remove the least amount of players permenantly' Hence my favourite wizard move list is stone touch, staffof animation/poly etheral jaunt, teleport and lich/soul shards. Murderbone isn't bad if you have a way to get people back in play fast. Even if it's just as a drone; I think that's the killer. Add in more ways to get back in the game and valid hunt becomess less anyeurism inducing.
Maybe random mobs coming through the tele or gateway?

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:19 am**

Helios wrote:The problem with nerfing assistant stuff, is that you nerf other things unintentionally.
Because cultists have to use stunprods and cablecuffs because they have no stun.

Return stun talismans

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:31 am**

Alright. You wanna know how you solve this shit? Get a better medical system. Adjusting to Paradise from /tg/ is like night and fucking day, fighting is a legitimate worry because getting stabbed by a spear will fuck your organs like an onahole rather than just take a notch off the flour bag of health every player in the game is. If you die easier, people will be less interested in fighting because the game will become a lot more lethal.

Fuck outta here with stun talismans, cults just need to git gud when it comes to getting sacrifices.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:46 am**

>paradise
That's not how you spell Baymed.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:57 am**

Paradise doesn't have as anal a medical system as Bay does, it's a lot more forgiving. They might have actually removed a lot of their organs though, if I'm not mistaken, but either way a more robust medical system would decrease validhunting.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:58 am**

People hate the idea of a better medsystem because they would rather have the current shitty system where you never have to rely on another player, and all damage can be fixed with a bruisepack or 2.

But yes, if getting hurt had actually consequences then people might actually think twice about blindly running at sword/gun wielding antags with nothing but disarm or a toolbox to their name.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:59 am**

People hate relying on other people to heal them because our medical system is fucking shit. The only reasons there are to have other people heal you are incredibly arbitrary and horribly designed. Sentients are literally flour bags full of health.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:00 am**

InsaneHyena wrote:TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.

this guy's never actually played a no rp server before, i guarantee it

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:07 am**

Never played on Hippie most likely. It's a horrible place.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:35 am**

Adding to Kor's list:

DOABLE AND MIGHT EVEN HAPPEN:

- Running more events. There is a stigma against "admins pressing buttons" but the fact is that even the most interesting rounds of spessmen become monotonous after some time, which makes players bored, which leads to validhunting. There's a big difference between admins doing stupid shit to the game purely to amuse themselves, and admins acting as GMs and creating actual storylines or making the round more interesting, and it's a shame that this has been discouraged by a few people who ruin things or can't play along. This doesn't even have to be Huge Involved Events; just small nudges toward a storyline can go a long way with the right players.

DOABLE, BUT WOULD TAKE SOME WORK:

- Adding traitor objectives and/or was to sabotage the station that are more difficult to thwart or figure out than "lel I kill you." Right now traitors either do zero sabotage or jump straight to releasing the singularity, and there's a world in between to exploit.

DOABLE AND I WISH THEY'D HAPPEN:

- Shifting the focus of roles that tend to validhunt a lot. There are many ways to do this: removing assistant maint/removing security officer maint (fewer avenues to validhunt), restoring sec/captain antag (no role whose job is solely to validhunt)

DOABLE AND I'M NOT SURE ABOUT BUT THEY'RE AN OPTION:

- Relax the rules against helping antags as long as it's properly RPed. I'm not sure about this because I know for a fact it will be abused. But I've had people ask me if they can RP along with an antag, and it kind of hurts my soul to tell them that they can't.

- Get rid of the most validhunty meme features of the rounds, which may include: multiverse swords, holoparasites, like 33% of the traitor uplink if we're being honest. When a round devolves into mass deathmatch from a previous state of non-mass deathmatch, people validhunt because that's really all there is to do. And it seeps into all the other rounds when it happens enough.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:58 am**

I, for one, use assistant maint for reasons other than validhunting.
I'd rather not be subjected to the whims of the HoP, such as: not existing.

(Oh, on the rules thing: I helped at least one antag hijack the shuttle by raising a scene near engineering. No one was hurt, nothing was damaged, but all of Security and half of Command were there.)

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:43 pm**

Make the game more centred around teamwork and less around PvP. Exadv1 checked in a couple of years ago with an idea for a shift in the game's graphical perspective and commented on how he was amused it had become so PvP oriented when he had originally intended it to be more PvE. Not saying I agree with that idea, just saying the original creator didn't expect it to become so PvP based. Not that I personally have a problem with that, it's just when every round consists of deathmatch and a bunch of players having to observe or run away from workplace shooters that it becomes tedious and moves away from the ostensible idea behind the game - paranoia on a deathtrap.

Also, either thinking of punishments for getting fucked up by another player that are more interesting than death or more imaginative, interesting and fun ways for players to get quickly get back into the round without taking away the impact of death (i.e. your role isn't as good as your first one, but not gimped to the point of golem or drone - or you're a perfectly capable human you're just on the other side of space, either trapped (which could be tedious depending on what you have to do to untrap yourself) or not trapped by a helpless enemy of NT who is capture on sight/or a research specimen or something so you can't just drift back to the station (not that this is particularly enjoyable or easy in the first place) and pick up where you left off. You're now an outsider looking in and different roles on board have different uses for you that extend beyond roleplay, practical gameplay uses, that also aren't just "lock in cell to get points" or something.

I was gonna say another thing... I think just less hallway shooters/ethereal murder beings or more ways for the crew to work together to deal with them that isn't just "shoot till die". Not that I can think of any that involve teamwork/haven't already been done elsewhere in the game right now.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:13 pm**

InsaneHyena wrote:TG is no rp server. Not light rp, no rp. If you don't want validhunters, go to bay. Or rather don't, since Bay is dead now, but I'm sure there is SOME hRP server outta here.

This is /tg/ nowadays

ban this sick filth

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:43 pm**

I don't care what you think tg should be, I'm stating how it is - if you don't like it, you can whine about it all you want. Unless some big changes to the rules and to the code are implemented, tg will stay the way it is.

/tg/Station 13

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