Explosion changes

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ColonicAcid
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by ColonicAcid » #171231

Bottom post of the previous page:

palpatine213 wrote:ITT: Oldman doesn't understand moles.
All of your "mysteries" make perfect logical sense.
Cold gas is compressed and has more gas in a smaller space.
Hot gas expands and has less gas in the same space.
You are just a moron.
???
this has nothing to do with moles.

It's ideal gas law.
pressure is proportional to temperature divided by volume.

chemistry autism below dont open
Spoiler:
If we're going to talk about realism I think explosions in general are really shit in this game. The fact that it contains oxygen instantly means it's a low explosive involving conflagration, these are made from usually a combustible (plasma) and an oxidiser (oxygen). These are about as effective as firing a firework, because that is what they are.

An actual explosive compound usually has enough stored energy in of by itself that it doesn't need any oxidants. a simple physical stimuli will be enough to break said bonds and release the energy in a very short amount of time (that's all a explosion is at the end of the day, energy released in a very short time. If wood burnt entirely in under 0.1 seconds it too would be an explosion. There's also some things to do with gases being produced and therefor increase in volume but just take it as energy being released.) Some chemicals are so sensitive that even an alpha particle is enough to trigger them.

I would completely scrap plasma, yes, I know it's an integral part of the game or whatever but it's relied on a crutch far too often and honestly, the bomb making process is far too convoluted and usually involves using tricks more than anything to achieve the perfect bomb mix or whatever. Also it makes no sense if we're talking about it fundamentally, decreasing the energy of a molecule, doesn't matter how oxidising it is, does more harm than good in terms of a low explosive. I think that cooling down oxygen to that low will actually slow the rate of reaction so low that it may turn into a non spontaneous reaction, ΔS > 0 etc etc.

Just make bomb making involve fertiliser or whatever, with cooperation from the botanists or cargo in order to get illegal super strong fertilisers to make illegal fertiliser bombs and stash them into a security officers segway to bomb the heathens back to their false idol or whatever. It'll be far more accurate that this garbage we have.
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by yackemflam » #171234

FreakyM wrote:I've hit a point where the bomb radar reports a decently large "potential" above the cap, and I suppose I have an idea how I could push that further, but really, why bother. The cap is now high enough that I don't feel the need to.

And since I haven't ran this image into the ground enough, here's the kinda shit I used to pull off routinely before the change.
You can get that kind of damage just by stacking 4 maxcaps on top of each other. :bluetank:
NSFW:
I will admit I was laughing pretty hard during your skit in the boxing ring. - seagrimr
Spoiler:
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A retards guide on how to make a maxcap bomb in toxins.
NSFW:
You`ll need:
1-6 Plasma tanks 1-6 Oxygen tanks
1-6 tank transfer valve
2 Plasma canister
2 Oxygen canister
1 Yellow (empty) canister
Wrench
Toxins lab access
Science testing lab access

Grab a oxygen tank and a plasma tank and bring them to the testing lab.
Super cool the Oxygen and superheat the Plasma.

Clean out the oxygen and plasma tanks with a filter/pump.

Then you wrench and unwrench the plasma and oxygen tanks in toxins. It`s important tha you do it one at a time. Try to get a 85%plasma and 15% oxygen mix.

Once you have a good burn mix, pump the mix into the burn chamber and light it on fire. Wait 10 seconds for it to heat up and pump it into a yellow (empty) canister.

Quickly set the kpa output to 163 kpa and fill the tanks with the burn mix.

Take the oxygen tanks and fill it up with a 613kpa worth of oxygen FIRST then fill the rest with plasma, you should get well over 2000kpa in the end.

With the new atmos system you should wait 5-10 minutes for you tanks to bake.

Take a tank transfer valve, add a oxygen tank and a plasma tank to it. You should have a maxcap bomb. Have fun blowing up the station mining!
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PKPenguin321
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by PKPenguin321 » #171238

ColonicAcid wrote:
palpatine213 wrote:ITT: Oldman doesn't understand moles.
All of your "mysteries" make perfect logical sense.
Cold gas is compressed and has more gas in a smaller space.
Hot gas expands and has less gas in the same space.
You are just a moron.
???
this has nothing to do with moles.

It's ideal gas law.
pressure is proportional to temperature divided by volume.

chemistry autism below dont open
Spoiler:
If we're going to talk about realism I think explosions in general are really shit in this game. The fact that it contains oxygen instantly means it's a low explosive involving conflagration, these are made from usually a combustible (plasma) and an oxidiser (oxygen). These are about as effective as firing a firework, because that is what they are.

An actual explosive compound usually has enough stored energy in of by itself that it doesn't need any oxidants. a simple physical stimuli will be enough to break said bonds and release the energy in a very short amount of time (that's all a explosion is at the end of the day, energy released in a very short time. If wood burnt entirely in under 0.1 seconds it too would be an explosion. There's also some things to do with gases being produced and therefor increase in volume but just take it as energy being released.) Some chemicals are so sensitive that even an alpha particle is enough to trigger them.

I would completely scrap plasma, yes, I know it's an integral part of the game or whatever but it's relied on a crutch far too often and honestly, the bomb making process is far too convoluted and usually involves using tricks more than anything to achieve the perfect bomb mix or whatever. Also it makes no sense if we're talking about it fundamentally, decreasing the energy of a molecule, doesn't matter how oxidising it is, does more harm than good in terms of a low explosive. I think that cooling down oxygen to that low will actually slow the rate of reaction so low that it may turn into a non spontaneous reaction, ΔS > 0 etc etc.

Just make bomb making involve fertiliser or whatever, with cooperation from the botanists or cargo in order to get illegal super strong fertilisers to make illegal fertiliser bombs and stash them into a security officers segway to bomb the heathens back to their false idol or whatever. It'll be far more accurate that this garbage we have.
damn fam you right. when did you get smart
two things tho:
1. plasma is a magic space substance, it takes some artistic license on realism. so it's okay to make big booms
2. illegal botany bomb making is actually a thing with nitroglycerin iirc
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yackemflam
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by yackemflam » #171240

Also, a maxcap is still stupid simple
NSFW:
I will admit I was laughing pretty hard during your skit in the boxing ring. - seagrimr
Spoiler:
Playing on the server isn't something you're entitled to. There's an extremely small level of responsibiliy on your part to play hhundreds of hours of a free game run by fuckheads. - Stickymayhem
A retards guide on how to make a maxcap bomb in toxins.
NSFW:
You`ll need:
1-6 Plasma tanks 1-6 Oxygen tanks
1-6 tank transfer valve
2 Plasma canister
2 Oxygen canister
1 Yellow (empty) canister
Wrench
Toxins lab access
Science testing lab access

Grab a oxygen tank and a plasma tank and bring them to the testing lab.
Super cool the Oxygen and superheat the Plasma.

Clean out the oxygen and plasma tanks with a filter/pump.

Then you wrench and unwrench the plasma and oxygen tanks in toxins. It`s important tha you do it one at a time. Try to get a 85%plasma and 15% oxygen mix.

Once you have a good burn mix, pump the mix into the burn chamber and light it on fire. Wait 10 seconds for it to heat up and pump it into a yellow (empty) canister.

Quickly set the kpa output to 163 kpa and fill the tanks with the burn mix.

Take the oxygen tanks and fill it up with a 613kpa worth of oxygen FIRST then fill the rest with plasma, you should get well over 2000kpa in the end.

With the new atmos system you should wait 5-10 minutes for you tanks to bake.

Take a tank transfer valve, add a oxygen tank and a plasma tank to it. You should have a maxcap bomb. Have fun blowing up the station mining!
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DemonFiren
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by DemonFiren » #171295

Colonic, that compound you linked makes me glad I reconsidered my chemistry career.
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ColonicAcid
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by ColonicAcid » #171325

"it makes sense" if you know how to do it.
It makes 0 sense logically and if you don't know all the tiny intricacies well you're fucked either go trawl through the code or ask some other idiot who asked another idiot who etc etc etc etc.

I know that plasma is the catch all be all for ss13 but tbh it's really in poor taste and just makes 0 sense as to why even the fucking bombs need to be made from this shit.


@demonfiren there's like 99.9% chance that you would never even make that molecule let alone see it blow up unless you're doing chemical engineering and looking at commercial explosives or government contracts. nobody else would even let you have the idea to make that since making the nitrogen aromatic part of it is balls to the wall hard.
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Kangaraptor
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Kangaraptor » #171337

What you need:

Heater

Freezer

O2 tank (empty)

Plasma tank (empty)

O2 canister

Plasma canister

What you do:

Heat the plasma to ~400 degrees

Cool the oxygen to -200 degrees, or thereabouts

Fill the oxygen tank with cold oxygen

Fill the plasma tank with hot plasma


If the explosion code is still ANYTHING like before, you should get a 10/20/40 at most, with minimal effort.

I did this during a round some time ago.
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Ricotez
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Ricotez » #171339

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I've come a long ways from asking how to switch hands.
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Kangaraptor
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Kangaraptor » #171340

After speaking to [censored] I can confirm that my method should still yield a maxcap, just no longer the same 10/20/40. rip.
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Wyzack
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Wyzack » #171342

Colonic the real answer is that this game was built as an atmos simulator and as such the bomb-making process was designed around the neat gas simulations. At this point it is one of those legacy things that will probably never change, both for balance and MUH TRADITION!

Also thanks for reminding me why i became a microbiologist, fucking gas law chemistry is hell. I still like orgo tho
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ColonicAcid
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by ColonicAcid » #171343

inorganic chemistry sucks massive dicks tbh and i didn't really enjoy it at all, neither did i get it for the longest time. the only reason I ever got it is because I put more time into it than any other part of chemistry. Organic chemistry clicked with me, it made sense, I still enjoy mechanisms and such.
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Wyzack
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Wyzack » #171344

Organic chem is the shit because when you do organic chem you get to set up the super intricate glassware with refluxers and condenser columns and stuff, pretty much what i thought science was when i was a small child. I dont really get to do it anymore but i still am quite fond of it. Inorganic is just boring and a lot of shitty math.
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by ColonicAcid » #171345

oh god no, i fucking hate experiments.
i've always invariably fucked it up. I managed to fuck up once the adsorption isotherms of ethanoic acid (this is like the easiest thing, all you do is you add a known amount of concentrations at intervals to activated charcoal in a conical flask and then you shake it for half an hour). Like wtf.
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Wyzack
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Wyzack » #171351

Whaaaat? Experiments are the best part! You get to fuck with all the dangerous chemicals, make cool shit, and hopefully not inhale those carcinogenic vapors you just inadvertently created. I miss organic chem experiments
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K0000
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by K0000 » #171532

Also it makes no sense if we're talking about it fundamentally, decreasing the energy of a molecule, doesn't matter how oxidising it is, does more harm than good in terms of a low explosive. I think that cooling down oxygen to that low will actually slow the rate of reaction so low that it may turn into a non spontaneous reaction, ΔS > 0 etc etc.
But thats not how things work. You cool the oxygen so that you can cram more moles of it inside a tank. The low temperature does have a negative impact on the reaction, it just doesnt matter as much as getting more reagents for the reaction.
When a tank transfer valve is opened, this oxygen immediately and completely mixes with the (usually very hot) contents of the other tank. The resultant mix is usually quite hot, a few hundred degrees celsius, because plasma has higher heat capacity than oxygen. And in fact, the hotter you can get it, the better, because hotter mix results in faster reaction speed. This hot mix of oxygen and plasma reacts naturally just as it does anywhere else. This results in rapid growth of pressure inside the tank and causes a boom.

Technicaly, theres no explosion reaction, its stil the old plasma+oxygen burning reaction. The game just cheats by letting the mix react inside a tank a few ticks before making a pressure check inside the tank. The explosion is then generated depending on the achieved pressure.
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Silavite » #171537

Detonation Velocity - For TNT, it's 6,900 m/s. For Ammonium Nitrate (fertilizer) it's 5,270 m/s.
Deflagration - What happens typically when gasses burn. The reaction spreads by heat being conducted through the medium. Detonation Velocities usually far below 100 m/s.
Detonation - Shock wave compresses gas which causes temperature rise above ignition point. Detonation velocities vary because gasses aren't stoichiometrically mixed, but are in the ballpark of 1,000 - 2,000 m/s.
The problem is that gasses have to be mixed well enough for them to react quickly enough to form a shock wave, and then for that shock wave to become powerful enough to initiate detonation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagrat ... transition
A deflagration is characterized by a subsonic flame propagation velocity, typically far below 100 m/s, and relatively modest overpressures, say below 0.5 bar. The main mechanism of combustion propagation is of a flame front that moves forward through the gas mixture - in technical terms the reaction zone (chemical combustion) progresses through the medium by processes of diffusion of heat and mass. In its most benign form, a deflagration may simply be a flash fire. In contrast, a detonation is characterized by supersonic flame propagation velocities, perhaps up to 2000 m/s, and substantial overpressures, up to 20 bars. The main mechanism of combustion propagation is of a powerful pressure wave that compresses the unburnt gas ahead of the wave to a temperature above the autoignition temperature. In technical terms, the reaction zone (chemical combustion) is a self-driven shock wave where the reaction zone and the shock are coincident, and the chemical reaction is initiated by the compressive heating caused by the shock wave.

Under certain conditions, mainly in terms of geometrical conditions such as partial confinement and many obstacles in the flame path that cause turbulent flame eddy currents, a subsonic flame may accelerate to supersonic speed, transitioning from deflagration to detonation. The exact mechanism is not fully understood, and while existing theories are able to explain and model both deflagrations and detonations, there is no theory at present which can predict the transition phenomenon.
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by Ivan Issaccs » #172197

They fucked up bomb implants? they just gib you now no damage to station.
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by oranges » #172201

organic chem is shit because all the compounds smell like ass
ColonicAcid
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Re: Explosion changes

Post by ColonicAcid » #172209

The thing is you're spending so much energy actually getting the bloody thing to AE's that they would react slowly compared to the actual expansion of the volume of the gas. In actuality there wouldn't be much of an explosion because the easier way to escape the container would not be into the tank transfer part but to just to push in all directions and break the O2 tank through sheer pressure. The only thing you'll get is just some super cold O2 which as soon as it reaches normal pressure of the environment will instantly turn into a liquid (as far as I know I'm not a fucking expert on atmospheric mechanics involving super cooled gases in a small container and what happens when they breach said container).


There's very little logical explanation for tank transfer valves and it's stupid and its not intuitive and it just makes me angry remove it.
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