/tg/Station 13

Can we disable the AI job for a week, I want to see what it will be like, then we can run a poll at the end

Why?

I'm stick of omnipresent all seeing eye harm yeller no 1.

Look past your initial revulsion at the idea of losing the AI forever.

This is just a non breaking change to see what it might be like.

I'm sick of AI letting people lynch lizards.


BAN AI

This is a bad thread.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:This is a bad thread.

Why, is the length of time too long?

Would 1 week be more palatable? Are you an AI player who will not be able to play any other role if the AI is gone? Are you banned from all other game roles? have you never played antag and been dicked over by the invisible eye in the sky you can't even see?

Atlanta-Ned wrote:This is a bad thread.

defensive silicon players screeching "PLAYER PROBLEM, PLAYER PROBLEM" in t-minus 3...

Try it. What do we have to lose?

I shilled for this a while back until Kor or someone decided to give it a go.
Apparently they only did it for a few hours because it was undone by the time I actually got on the next day, and people hated not having a door opener, or some shit.

AI's my favourite job, personally. Love the opportunity to follow my laws even when it's against the heads' of staff's best interest. Not to be a dick, just to let some harmless assistant have some fun they'd otherwise be barred from.

A month is too long, but half a week's experiment might be interesting. I'd like to hear more about what prompted this proposal though and what you're testing for. If it's antags not being able to get away with stuff, that's due more to valid hunting and rounds when antags are outnumbered/overpowered by sec imo.The station is big and the freecam is laggy.

A month is a long time, but I'd vote yes for 7 days. Voted no.

It would certainly be interesting to see what it'd be like. Door-opener really is useful sometimes.

Incidentally, if doing this you'd really need to disable science having an AI core board at roundstart, and the capacity to basically shit out AIs from the beginning of the shift, otherwise they'll get made regularly and you'll have pretty much the same game.

At minimum of 24 hours seems fine, perhaps up to 7 days. The stupidest thing I've seen with "trials" is that the person barely does it for a few hours and we never see it again since most people are not on for the brief trial run.

please remove [that role you like the most] from the game, as it interferes with [that role i like the most] thank you

Cik wrote:please remove [that role that exists to validhunt and harmyell] from the game, as it interferes with [basically every single other role, especially the ones designed to create fun and drive the round] thank you

fix that up for you fam

player problem

Doesn't hurt to remove it for a week, see how it goes.

i wouldn't be against it but that never happens

this is how it starts "oh we'll try it for a week" like all of those other things that were like that that i can't remember specifics about

Cik wrote:player problem

Spoiler:

yeah i know fuck you it's actually the truth teach AIs to not be retards do not remove the things i enjoy because others are dumb thank you

i fucking called it

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Cik wrote:player problem

Spoiler:

yeah i know fuck you it's actually the truth teach AIs to not be retards do not remove the things i enjoy because others are dumb thank you

i fucking called it

"what color is the sky"
"blue"
"WOW I SO FUCKING KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO SAY THAT"

we were friends last week fam don't remove that thing you said i shouldn't leave from which you are currently trying to make me leave from thanks

i guess so

the thing is, even if it is a player problem, it's getting to the point where it's not a resolvable one unless we outright ban most silicon players (which won't go over well, see the thread in this board on harsher asimov silicon punishments). not to mention that the AI at a fundamental level even when played correctly is a burden to antagonists, who drive the fun of the round, and can also be a burden to other forces like security (see the weekly ban request threads that come up from sec executing people with borgs nearby). this goes without mentioning other lawsets like Valadin and Robocop, which only worsen the entire system even further.

i think an AI removal is worth a trial at the least.

Cik wrote:i wouldn't be against it but that never happens

this is how it starts "oh we'll try it for a week" like all of those other things that were like that that i can't remember specifics about

i will personally ensure for you that AI removal will not exceed it's trial period (unless, of course, feedback from the trial says to keep it away, in which case we've gotten the feedback we need and in that case would probably remove the AI).

One of my biggest issues is that cyborgs often don't know weather to follow their laws of their AI master's orders. The game doesn't do anything to instruct the player on what takes priority, causing more confusion. I've had countless security cyborgs on asimov arrest me (when I had committed no harm) then refuse to let me go because "the ai told me to arrest you". A real chode killer.

Because we are all human, most AI players let their emotions get in the way of things and engage in concerted efforts to take down characters they have issues with during the round on very flimsy reasoning. As we have seen from previous threads, how to fix this problem has no consensus amongst the community, with the most zealous AI players often getting the most emotional and petulant regarding anything AI related.

P.S. - I'd rather see the AI nerfed than removed, because I think messing with the AIs laws adds a lot to the game in terms of fun factor for the crew, but I believe disabling the AI has a lot of merit so we can see what rounds would be like without it.

Apparently they only did it for a few hours because it was undone by the time I actually got on the next day, and people hated not having a door opener, or some shit.

Either those fucks don't know how to hack doors, or they're lazy. Or maybe just stupid.

Personally I always thought it was intresting to have a player run AI that had to follow a lawset, I thought it was a quirky way of having futuristic space station, where all roles on-board could be played by players.

You know what, do it. It would be interesting to see the results. And there's always the second server if people can't take it for a few days.

That said, it's probably not a good solution long term, but it may show that AI tracking abilities need a nerf.

InsaneHyena wrote:

Apparently they only did it for a few hours because it was undone by the time I actually got on the next day, and people hated not having a door opener, or some shit.

Either those fucks don't know how to hack doors, or they're lazy. Or maybe just stupid.

Not everyone cares to fill up their internals box with a full toolbox + multitool and test/write down all the wires at roundstart every round

Beyond having an all seeing eye to help you valid people, and to open doors for you, I honestly don't see how anyone can think the AI is actually good for the game - it cockblocks so many antags so easily, and having to go out of your way to try counter this one player EVERY SINGLE ROUND is a good sign it's pretty shit.

oranges wrote:have you never played antag and been dicked over by the invisible eye in the sky you can't even see?

You bet your ass I have. But the difference is I didn't pitch a giant fit over getting dunked once or twice. Sorry your murderboner keeps getting stomped on.

Beyond having an all seeing eye to help you valid people, and to open doors for you, I honestly don't see how anyone can think the AI is actually good for the game - it cockblocks so many antags so easily, and having to go out of your way to try counter this one player EVERY SINGLE ROUND is a good sign it's pretty shit.

Hit the camera with a goddamn toolbox. Boom. Player countered.

I like having rogue AIs around trying to kill me makes the station feel more dangerous.

Thanks, I'll be sure to break every camera that can see me, including ones behind windows, ones next to people I plan to kill, ones near airlocks I might have to escape through etc.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

oranges wrote:have you never played antag and been dicked over by the invisible eye in the sky you can't even see?

You bet your ass I have. But the difference is I didn't pitch a giant fit over getting dunked once or twice. Sorry your murderboner keeps getting stomped on.

It's not about my murderboner.

It's about everyone's murderboner and paranoia.

Atticat wrote:One of my biggest issues is that cyborgs often don't know weather to follow their laws of their AI master's orders. The game doesn't do anything to instruct the player on what takes priority, causing more confusion. I've had countless security cyborgs on asimov arrest me (when I had committed no harm) then refuse to let me go because "the ai told me to arrest you". A real chode killer.

Because we are all human, most AI players let their emotions get in the way of things and engage in concerted efforts to take down characters they have issues with during the round on very flimsy reasoning. As we have seen from previous threads, how to fix this problem has no consensus amongst the community, with the most zealous AI players often getting the most emotional and petulant regarding anything AI related.

P.S. - I'd rather see the AI nerfed than removed, because I think messing with the AIs laws adds a lot to the game in terms of fun factor for the crew, but I believe disabling the AI has a lot of merit so we can see what rounds would be like without it.

1. The AI interprets the laws, therefore you follow the AI's orders. As peoples interpretations can differ, it's the AI's that you follow. (unless its obvious hes retarded/massively incorrect)
2. In the round I know you're subtly talking about, I had the AI AND another borg tell me to arrest you, you were obviously doing something if two players thought you've 'harmed' (because what you changed law 5 to also causes harm).
3. At least 3-5 people called you shit in OOC after that round, I KNOW you mostly mean that blob round too.
I even let you go after like 3 minutes, (the ai did tell me to give that chemist your shit though...) but if you're going to act how you did with the crews opinion of you I don't really think you can judge other people's actions upon you.

keep cyborg for extra chaos

Seems like a good idea to me

Do this just so that everyone will see how shit it is and we can go back

Disabling ai in config also blocks science from building one btw.
A month seems too long though. A week as a test run sounds good though.

bandit wrote:

Beyond having an all seeing eye to help you valid people, and to open doors for you, I honestly don't see how anyone can think the AI is actually good for the game - it cockblocks so many antags so easily, and having to go out of your way to try counter this one player EVERY SINGLE ROUND is a good sign it's pretty shit.

Hit the camera with a goddamn toolbox. Boom. Player countered.

oh yeah because the player needs a camera to harmyell and sic every officer and borg on your ass, right?

I have no problem with AIs, but I woud like to see how the game goes without an AI, at round start at least, for a week.

here we go again

as always i will be against this

always

Deitus wrote:here we go again

as always i will be against this

always

it's just a few days baby, it's nothing.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Do this just so that everyone will see how shit it is and we can go back

That's not what will happen.

What will happen is that everyone who wanted AI gone will go "see, it was great!" and everyone who wanted AI to stay will go "see, it was terrible!". Assuming, that is, that they have a strong opinion. I can't see someone like Oranges changing their mind on this.

Having said that, I'm not totally convinced either way.

I would be super sad if the AI was removed, considering it's the best way to mess with your crew as captain. But I also think it's really important we observe how antags fare without some invisible god watching their every move and calling out their actions.

Robotics can make an AI just fine.

What if we only remove roundstart AI and keep the abillity to make an AI core?

I am sure we will get a new meta where robotics makes makingan AI one of their semi-standard goals.

CPTANT wrote:Robotics can make an AI just fine.

What if we only remove roundstart AI and keep the abillity to make an AI core?

I am sure we will get a new meta where robotics makes makingan AI one of their semi-standard goals.

That would have to be done with code, it's all-or-nothing in the config

Also something that people haven't touched on, would we also remove all silicon's such as cyborgs? Since a lot of the time the AI is mostly responsible for final say on any cyborg and help to coordinate them.

I suspect not. Most of the complaints about AIs are based on their range of vision, which cyborgs simply don't have. It's very easy to order them away, the balance concerns there tend to be about requiring different counter-tactics to most other enemies.

What would be interesting is whether people start ordering cyborgs to their location to open a door. Probably not, given that they'll have to explain what they're entering (and so won't be able to enter the Captain's Office in secret). The HOP might get proportionally more requested access changes, or people might just start learning the wires more regularly.

I think that a test of no roundstart AI might be good. I am sure dedicated AI players will run down to robo and asked to get AI'd pretty frequently. I am also going to start attempting to pimp out server 2 for testmerges now that we have the playercounts to make tests actually viable

Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.
Cyborgs? Remove Secborg or make the module a high tier R&D researchable, so that it doesn't fucking appear at round start constantly. All other borgs, and them alone, I find are incredibly fine.

peoplearestrange wrote:Also something that people haven't touched on, would we also remove all silicon's such as cyborgs? Since a lot of the time the AI is mostly responsible for final say on any cyborg and help to coordinate them.

I have no problem with cyborgs, their presence is immediately visible and they do not see large portions of the map at any given point in time.

Cheimon wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:Do this just so that everyone will see how shit it is and we can go back

That's not what will happen.

What will happen is that everyone who wanted AI gone will go "see, it was great!" and everyone who wanted AI to stay will go "see, it was terrible!". Assuming, that is, that they have a strong opinion. I can't see someone like Oranges changing their mind on this.

Having said that, I'm not totally convinced either way.

A) it's oranges

B) I'm not set on this course, I want people to try it out and we can hopefully get some good feedback, I'm open to nerfing the AI in some other ways or leaving it to the status quo. What I want is people to give feedback after in a poll to see if they felt the game was much worse - about the same - better off.

Well, the poll is close. At the time of writing, it's 22-23 (written for archival purposes).

Gamarr wrote:Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.

However, removing round start AI removes traitor ai, which removes malf ai, which is now the same thing.