So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

[Copybass]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Important question; is the Service Borg internal booze shaker a booty shaker

If so service is best borg.

[IcePacks]

this thread was created over FOUR MONTHS AGO

Just let it go.

[Anonmare]

this thread was created over FOUR MONTHS AGO

Just let it go.

>Self quoting

[Copybass]

this thread was created over FOUR MONTHS AGO

Just let it go.

>Self quoting

Isn't self quoting one of those things you just by default expect from Pax

[kevinz000]

this thread was created over FOUR MONTHS AGO

Just let it go.

[A3STH3T1CS]

An ode.

Oh fellow Captain, oh fellow Captain, it seems you have been slain.
If it were for not that pesky robot, I would not complain.

But Captain, oh Captain you are such a fool for not carrying with you, the handy flash tool!

I had many to spare, you could have also sent a prayer..

OH CAPTAIN, MY CAPTAIN, RIN HAS BEEN UNPINNED

[firecage]

Though still, Secborg being re-enabled would definitely help to decrease the FUCKING GOD DAMN CONSTANT LOWPOP MURDERBONING. Since it seems that no headmin ever is planning on making rulings against it. besides, even if they did, admins are almost never on during lowpop.

[PKPenguin321]

Though still, Secborg being re-enabled would definitely help to decrease the FUCKING GOD DAMN CONSTANT LOWPOP MURDERBONING. Since it seems that no headmin ever is planning on making rulings against it. besides, even if they did, admins are almost never on during lowpop.

Reminder that my most extreme murderbones back in the day involved emagged secborgs

[DemonFiren]

Secborgs are good because this statement triggers PK.

:^)

[firecage]

Though still, Secborg being re-enabled would definitely help to decrease the FUCKING GOD DAMN CONSTANT LOWPOP MURDERBONING. Since it seems that no headmin ever is planning on making rulings against it. besides, even if they did, admins are almost never on during lowpop.

Reminder that my most extreme murderbones back in the day involved emagged secborgs

Perhaps, and I would frequently see Secborgs taking down Ebow + Esword or Double Esword murderboners, which are the most frequent, and are for the most part unopposed currently. Honestly, the only way to take them out reliably is via a Combat Shotgun, which the murderboners keep whining about wanting nerfed.

[Arianya]

Reminder:

(Note that said rebalancing efforts do not include "make PK able to do its job" or "allow silicons to ever have an advantage over humans ever")

Personally I vote we just make beepskers easier to make and harder to kill and see if people want secborgs back after that.

[Reece]

just unleash hunting packs of ED's and beepers for the AI to herd into massive swarms round after round.

[Davidchan]

The ghost of hg clearly possed citrus. Toss em incompost with the corpse.

[Mooseykins]

I'm fine with secborgs never being back in the code, but what was the point in polling whether people wanted them back just to say "lol doesn't matter"?

[Davidchan]

I'm fine with secborgs never being back in the code, but what was the point in polling whether people wanted them back just to say "lol doesn't matter"?

Sec borgs where never deleted, only disabled. They are in the code still and admins have turned them back on from time to time to mine some salt.

[onleavedontatme]

I think secborgs need to exist again simply so that there is something with both the IC power and OOC authority to stop security from running death camps at the slightest provocation.

[onleavedontatme]

Secborgs often were complicit, yes. Turns out it is worse without them though.

[bandit]

I think secborgs need to exist again simply so that there is something with both the IC power and OOC authority to stop security from running death camps at the slightest provocation.

This. Currently security has zero IC opposition besides antags. This is a bad and uninteresting dynamic for a game that is fundamentally about conflict. Ideally we would have both civilian-level opposition (lawyer, HoP, IA if we had that) and silicon opposition (AI, borgs) but currently we have nothing. We do have two separate types of meme borgs for people to spam with though!

[Davidchan]

The general consensus I'm getting here isn't when Security is dealing with a confirmed, no shits about it Antag who'se used lethal intent or clearly intends to use further lethal intent if given half a chance.

The issue here is when Security doesn't know, is guessing, or is just abusing the leniency given to them to assume that someone is an antag without the slightest shred of proof they've done anything even worthy of time in the brig, let alone execution.

IMHO the authority to carry out (legal) executions shouldn't come within Security, but rather they present the case and evidence to the Captain, HoP or Acting Captain and that person can give the thumbs up or thumbs down on murdering the poor fool. Secborgs and other non-sec crew who can at the very least slap down a rogue officer if they get over zealous and redtext over doing their actual job of trying to keep the station and loyal crew safe.

[Screemonster]

Every time the Captain, an equivalent head or a mutinous crew under any head has to get involved and stop someone, it's usually at the point where if one side doesn't get demoted, the other will (it can take up 10-20 minutes of the round to do just this, it's not something I ever sought after or saw others want to find) and I imagine ghosting then occurs soon afterwards unless you want to pick a fight and escalation memes means it'll either draw in an admin or the once-important figure will get their shit kicked in, either by their mark or an officer, then left for dead or worse, taken to perma.

I had this happen recently. Hit up a high-RP server. Rolled cap. Chaplain was conducting a memey service in the chapel and half the crew were there for want of anything else to do (because, yanno, high-rp server running extended and I went there to relax a bit), then a sec officer showed up and declared it to be suspicious and let us all know that he was watching us closely. Chaplain was literally doing the fuckin' earthbound happy happy cult and urging people to paint their workplaces purple and the officer threatened to arrest the chaplain if anyone did so. I got on the radio and straight-up said "captain here, I hereby authorise anyone on the crew to decorate their workplaces however they damn well please." Officer kept on yelling at the crew, I told him that I would fucking fire him if he gave one more order he didn't have the right to give, HoS backed me up, and he ghosted.

So, yeah, this is far from unique to tg. Or even SS13. Some people gotta have that authoritah.

[bandit]

Chaplain was literally doing the fuckin' earthbound happy happy cult and urging people to paint their workplaces purple and the officer threatened to arrest the chaplain if anyone did so. I got on the radio and straight-up said "captain here, I hereby authorise anyone on the crew to decorate their workplaces however they damn well please." Officer kept on yelling at the crew, I told him that I would fucking fire him if he gave one more order he didn't have the right to give, HoS backed me up, and he ghosted.

officer was in the right, the happy happy cult wasn't purple it's BLUE

[dionysus24779]

I think secborgs need to exist again simply so that there is something with both the IC power and OOC authority to stop security from running death camps at the slightest provocation.

That's exactly what I always tried to get across. Silicons in general are (under unmodified laws) a third party that can counter security should they start getting out of control.

Silicons and Security being at each other's throat was at least as, if not more, common than full cooperation, because sooner or later security will become problematic (read: "harmful") and then is when the fun begins.

Now the AI laws being changed to Paladin or something similar is an entirely different issue in my opinion and maybe the rules on that (law changes) should be addressed so that maybe even the Captain cannot "just decide" to "valadin" the AI and make the powergamers, who want their unopposed murder sprees, cry. (like how about the Captain has to issue a request to centcomm and the heads of staff can vote on it and maybe an admin has to accept it or can veto it if it isn't warranted or would interfere with an event or something)

How about the high-risk lawboards are removed and can only be researched? That way even if the Captain/HoS want to "valadin" the AI they need to rely on RnD first and it cannot happen within the first minute of the game. This would also put bigger focus on the Asimov lawset (which maybe should finally be replaced with something less vague).

But I guess chopping off that limb is easier than treating it.

[PKPenguin321]

I think secborgs need to exist again simply so that there is something with both the IC power and OOC authority to stop security from running death camps at the slightest provocation.

That's exactly what I always tried to get across. Silicons in general are (under unmodified laws) a third party that can counter security should they start getting out of control.

majority of sec borg players did not believe/follow this

not to mention law changes (we got rid of valadin which is nice but there's still freeform)

also this thread again reee

[InsaneHyena]

majority of sec borg players did not believe/follow this

not to mention law changes (we got rid of valadin which is nice but there's still freeform)

Seriously, guys, did you just forget how valadin-ed secborgs reenacted the plot of the Terminator every conversion antag round?

[Cik]

that's a valadin problem not a secborg problem

[PKPenguin321]

that's a valadin problem not a secborg problem

it's an issue with law changes in general (valadin especially) so it's definitely still present

[Anonmare]

It's less of an issue now that Valadin/robocop is no longer a roundstart board.

You could *technically* freeform it in but how many captains do you know have the patience to type that in? Plus there's way too many captains who don't understand law sectors and they almost always end up overwriting their last law.

One way around it could be to remove the Freeform Core board from roundstart, leaving the Freeform Supplied board, which would allow any Tom, Dick and Harry to basically purge the AI if they break into tech storage, assemble the upload and use the reset board in there. All the tools to do it are basically already there.

Sure a Captain could remove the reset board but if they're doing all that roundstart for no raisin then they're getting a bwoink for metagaming hard.

[Cik]

most captains can be solved by asking them what they are uploading

they will say "paladin"

then you tase them for being harmful

not that anyone even changes AI laws anymore because there is no captain/he doesn't feel like it/he doesn't know how/there's no point because the AI is mostly helpless anyway/whatever

[Cik]

i don't even know where this asimov is a valid lawset even come from anyway maybe it's just because i always play AI in the rounds i play (well, not always but often enough) and i don't valid

maybe it's because i play latenight lowpop and i just get to skip out on all of the idiots?

even back in the twilight of secborgs i never knew what everyone was complaining about. prior to that i think i had trouble with secborgs once in the last 6~ month period

is this one of those unjustified stereotypes or wat

[Doctor Pork]

Sec borg should be enabled on low-pop. I'm just sick and tired of all the mindless low-sec murderboner.

[kevinz000]

Sec borg should be enabled on low-pop. I'm just sick and tired of all the mindless low-sec murderboner.

Flash
EMP
Gg

[Armhulen]

Sec borg should be enabled on low-pop. I'm just sick and tired of all the mindless low-sec murderboner.

Flash
EMP
Gg

unrobust borg

but yes it has counters

[Munchlax]

Security Borgs are bad and removing them was the best thing anyone ever did do

[Oldman Robustin]

>Secborgs re-enabled for a round
>I do my traitor thing
>Use mulligan from my crate to change my identity, stash my ID

>2 secborgs start chasing me near arrivals while my face is covered by an EVA suit
>I run into space and of course they chase me into space spamming enough disablers to pretty much fill my screen
>I float off into space in a straight line, I take off my helmet to show them I'm not Oldman Robustin
>They keep spamming disablers, stun me while my helmet is off
>Cuff me in space, still spamming disablers on me while im slowly dying
>I'm screaming that I'm dying, I have no helmet, I'm going to die, order them to release me

>Nope, both secborgs just keep shooting disablers into me until I die
>Check their laws
>Theyre both asimov
>They try to justify it by saying that I had self-harmed
>They get a warning but otherwise continue their round validhunting

This is why I'm forever against the return of validborgs. I'd love to see sec get some synthetic help but the secborgs of old are just raw validhunting cancer. Peacekeeper should be altered into a support borg that focuses on protecting humans from harm as opposed to validating valids. Stuff like projecting a temporary shield onto humans (that can absorb 3 hits or whatever, dissipates after ~60s), and/or having a tractor beam that will "throw" people toward the borg to prevent the old Drag N' Stab.

Stop making Peacekeeper borgs a meme, make them a legit support option, and leave secborgs in the ground to rot where they belong.

I think secborgs need to exist again simply so that there is something with both the IC power and OOC authority to stop security from running death camps at the slightest provocation.

And in the year leading up to their removal they weren't just "sometimes complicit" they were guarding the door while sec threw prisoners into the oven. The level of contortion you'd see secborgs go through to maintain their validhunter status was outrageous, they would be just as callous about sec harm as they would be aggressive about antag harm. They would literally watch people get dragged into execution screaming bloody murder and casually stroll away, they would sit there watching sec cave someone's face in and beep out "Please cease harm" once before sec finished him off and then go back to business as usual helping bring in more prisoners, Secborgs would take people who had been cloned from sec executions and drag them straight back to the brig and leave them with the persons who killed them.

Engiborgs/Mediborgs are quite capable of shutting down Sec's deathcamps too but it just never happens. It's a quiet understanding between most Synth and Sec players that borgs and AI just turn a blind eye to the corpses piling up in the brig. Hell AI's can easily bring the deathcamps to a grinding halt but its literally been YEARS since I've seen an AI use bolts or depowering to try and stop security from killing people. Bringing back secborgs is not the answer to shutting down the mass-execution playstyle that security has devolved into.

[bandit]

And in the year leading up to their removal they weren't just "sometimes complicit" they were guarding the door while sec threw prisoners into the oven. The level of contortion you'd see secborgs go through to maintain their validhunter status was outrageous, they would be just as callous about sec harm as they would be aggressive about antag harm. They would literally watch people get dragged into execution screaming bloody murder and casually stroll away, they would sit there watching sec cave someone's face in and beep out "Please cease harm" once before sec finished him off and then go back to business as usual helping bring in more prisoners, Secborgs would take people who had been cloned from sec executions and drag them straight back to the brig and leave them with the persons who killed them.

then (assuming they're asimov) silicon ban them, holy christ

[Bolien]

And in the year leading up to their removal they weren't just "sometimes complicit" they were guarding the door while sec threw prisoners into the oven. The level of contortion you'd see secborgs go through to maintain their validhunter status was outrageous, they would be just as callous about sec harm as they would be aggressive about antag harm. They would literally watch people get dragged into execution screaming bloody murder and casually stroll away, they would sit there watching sec cave someone's face in and beep out "Please cease harm" once before sec finished him off and then go back to business as usual helping bring in more prisoners, Secborgs would take people who had been cloned from sec executions and drag them straight back to the brig and leave them with the persons who killed them.

then (assuming they're asimov) silicon ban them, holy christ

Yeah sounds like a player problem here not a feature issue.

[Cik]

>Secborgs re-enabled for a round
>I do my traitor thing
>Use mulligan from my crate to change my identity, stash my ID

>2 secborgs start chasing me near arrivals while my face is covered by an EVA suit
>I run into space and of course they chase me into space spamming enough disablers to pretty much fill my screen
>I float off into space in a straight line, I take off my helmet to show them I'm not Oldman Robustin
>They keep spamming disablers, stun me while my helmet is off
>Cuff me in space, still spamming disablers on me while im slowly dying
>I'm screaming that I'm dying, I have no helmet, I'm going to die, order them to release me

>Nope, both secborgs just keep shooting disablers into me until I die
>Check their laws
>Theyre both asimov
>They try to justify it by saying that I had self-harmed
>They get a warning but otherwise continue their round validhunting

i mean this is like textbook fucking administration problem man

anyone who signed off on a "warning" for this behavior should be fucking crucified

whitelist cyborg two zero one seven also bring secborgs back thanks

[PKPenguin321]

This whole player problem meme is part of what I've been trying to get at. Nobody plays sec borg the "good" way that people are using as justification to re-enable them save maybe two people. If administration got tighter on them we'd have banned half the server from silicons in the first week.

[Bolien]

This whole player problem meme is part of what I've been trying to get at. Nobody plays sec borg the "good" way that people are using as justification to re-enable them save maybe two people. If administration got tighter on them we'd have banned half the server from silicons in the first week.

Channeling my inner Saegrimr here, but if that forced people to not be shit at silicons, why is it a bad thing?

[PKPenguin321]

This whole player problem meme is part of what I've been trying to get at. Nobody plays sec borg the "good" way that people are using as justification to re-enable them save maybe two people. If administration got tighter on them we'd have banned half the server from silicons in the first week.

Channeling my inner Saegrimr here, but if that forced people to not be shit at silicons, why is it a bad thing?

Every time a player gets banned from silicon, it's because they created a shitty scenario like the one ForcefulCJS described. Just shitty round after shitty round.

[Sweaterkittens]

Snip

I'm really, really disappointed that you came on here and shared this distorted version of the story in an effort to have yet another audience to vent to. You know as well as I do that's not how it happened, and I spent the better part of the entire round talking to you over admin pm to give you the whole story. However, that didn't stop you from complaining for the next three rounds in OOC, as well as apparently coming on here and selectively sharing bits of the story in an attempt to use it as a springboard for your Security Cyborg hate. This is not ban requests, nor do I have the interest in wasting my time arguing something that was already very thoroughly handled - So I'll simply state the full story so that everyone has perspective, and then leave.

While I was adminning this morning, I took a vote to see if players would like a few rounds with Security Cyborgs on. There was a massive outpouring of support, so I turned them on for a couple of rounds and let everyone know that I would be keeping an extremely close eye on them and strictly enforcing Asimov.

What Oldman left out of his story was the fact that the Cyborgs had watched him use a Traitor Mulligan, and knew that it was still Oldman Robustin, the traitor, under the EVA helmet. He had killed several people that round already, and they were well within their right to pursue him. He also chose to leave out the fact that, from the perspective of the Cyborgs, it appeared as though he was taking off his helmet so that they'd be forced to stop pursuing him for the risk of hurting him. Our Silicon policy very clearly states: "2. Self-harm-based coercion is a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded." I was watching the situation very closely as it unfolded, and that's what it looked like you were doing to me as well. Additionally, the second Cyborg was merely trying to catch up to the first, and did not have anything to do with the situation. He was actually trying to get your helmet back to you, but I guess when you tell the story it doesn't sound as good if you don't say "TWO VALIDHUNTING SHITBORGS STUNLOCKING ME", huh?

In any case, due to the gray area of what looked to be a very clear case of self-harm based coercion on your part (from the Cyborgs perspective), the Cyborg player's very clean history, and the fact that he brought you back onto the station, immediately brought you to cloning, got you cloned and left you alone (which you conveniently left out), I decided to simply give him a warning and keep a close eye on him. He was very apologetic and admitted that what he had done was wrong in hindsight. I still cannot believe that you left out the part where you were literally given all of your stuff back and were able to immediately start killing people again after this incident. You even ended up gunning for the RD so that you could get his ID, get in to his office, and blow the borgs.


As I said before, I spent almost the entire round responding to your ahelps, trying to give you the whole story, giving you updates on how the case was being handled, and giving you some perspective on why the cyborgs acted the way they did. That didn't stop you from bitching to me all round, bitching in OOC and to the Cyborg in question (who was incredibly confused, because he thought it had been handled), and apparently making this thread so you could bitch even more. Clearly you're not going to change your mind, and I'm certain your next post is going to be crying about "metagaming your identity" which is what you fell back on when you felt as though you couldn't argue about the actual incident anymore. I have no interest in wasting my time and my breath arguing with a brick wall, so I'm just posting this to keep everyone else informed about the truth behind your "cautionary tale". And you wonder why other admins blow off your ahelps.

[Davidchan]

People really need to get it through their heads that if a silicon sees or knows you murdered someone you can't law 2 out of it since law 1 clearly shows you to be a threat.

[Armhulen]

So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

[PKPenguin321]

So, secborgs re-enabled anytime soon?

enjoy shitty meme you inspired

[Armhulen]

kek

[killerx09]

I mean, I'm a Yogstation player, and we have Secborgs there (and also NTSL, but that's another topic), and we've never really had an issue. Murderboning without a reason is banned there, so our antagonists are either covert, or if they are planning to (Hijack Objectives), they plan around Secborgs and the AI. If they don't and get robusted by the AI/Borgs, most of them just accept that they took a risk and it didn't paid out.

[Weepo]

Security are already validhunting murderers, we don't need them being literally killing machines on top.

[Davidchan]

>literal killing machines

>literally has no lethal weapons

This entire thread has been if I murderboned and killed you, man up and deal with it. If I murderboned and got dunked by something I could have easily planned for and negated with minimal effort, I DED NERF NOAW

[Doctor Pork]

snip~ desu desu~

D E S T R O Y E D.

Looks like it's the Oldman who ended up getting the Robustin amirite?

[Arianya]

he brought you back onto the station, immediately brought you to cloning, got you cloned and left you alone

Hey Pkpenguin care to comment on the "good secborg play we never actually see", considering the borg had no incentive nor order to give Robustin his life back?

Oh no wait you're busy posting MSpaint memes, sorry. My bad.

[D&B]

The biggest issue if they were brought back is the fact that you also need to buff traitor AI enough for it to be it's own game mode again, or risk every traitor and DA round being dominated.