Headmin Elections General

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Neerti
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Headmin Elections General

Post by Neerti » #16608

In the community meeting we had yesterday on IRC, headmin elections were discussed. Here's some snippets.

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NOTE: The below doesn't apply anymore.
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People who've nominated themselves:
Antonkr
Deuryn
Erroage
Hornygranny
Ikarrus
Neerti
Pandarsenic
Spacemanspark
Elyina
When the vote starts: NOW

The poll may be invalid as scaredy apparently had no idea it was made.
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http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php

As always, please keep this civil.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by 420goslingboy69 » #16610

Vote errorage
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this man's:):):):):) army
DESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERD:):):):):)ESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROY:):):):):)ERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDEST:):):):):)ROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDES:):):):):)TROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYER
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Ikarrus » #16614

Keep in mind the questionnaires were filled out half a year ago. The answers given then were more relevant to the state at the time. A lot has changed since.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16618

Should have payed more attention to filling them out then.

I would really like headmins to get remote again, but this also means raising the bar for headmin selection.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Neerti » #16624

Apparently ingame polls work fine now.

http://www.ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Lovecraft » #16671

Democracy at it's finest.

Have fun everyone, I'm going down to Mexico while this goes on.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16679

question to all candidates: what do you plan to do about taking action against admins who have made mistakes or abused power
current forms of punishment are limited to stern talkings to and warnings which are often ignored
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16689

There's going to be 3 headmins, the chances one of them are friends with said admin is so fucking high I doubt any admins will be removed as per usual because nobody likes to step on toes. This and many other run of the mill headmin expectations have yet to be changed since the last round of headmins. Come to think of it, Erro was the only one seeing to admins actually being deadminned who were supposed to be deadminned in the past year. I really, really hope neerti's monitoring of admin activity will play a part in this somehow, even if neerti isn't a headmin. Seriously, having a bloated admin roster is fucking stupid.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Pandarsenic » #16696

An admin who fucks up should get a tempban or a temp de-admin, and no "Oh he's fine he won't do it again" because we don't take that from people on-server. If they fuck up bad enough to shake faith of the headmins I wouldn't hate seeing them redo their trialmin process, depending on the type and severity of the mistake/abuse.
paprika wrote:the chances one of them are friends with said admin is so fucking high I doubt any admins will be removed as per usual because nobody likes to step on toes
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Ikarrus » #16697

miggles wrote:question to all candidates: what do you plan to do about taking action against admins who have made mistakes or abused power
current forms of punishment are limited to stern talkings to and warnings which are often ignored
It all depends on severity, really. If an admin's behavior can be corrected in a civil manner (simply speaking with them) then we should do just that. Serious or repeat issues after they've already been spoken to should be met with a significantly harsher response (temp/perma deadminning, admin-bans, restricting-permissions). After all, one bad admin makes the rest of us look bad, and violates the trust we should have with the players.

Historically, though, deadminning or even temp-deadminning anyone is guaranteed to cause a massive amount of drama (Terranaut & Elyina are some examples off the top of my head), so I can understand why it's been avoided. It also doesn't help that the last year or so headmins didn't have remote access, limiting their influence to admin-bans.

Really though, I think it's a process that should involve all the headmins, adminbus in general, and possibly even SOS, rather than one angry headmin. Reasonable and thorough discourse should be attempted first and foremost, but in a prompt manner.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Bluespace » #16700

Finally Antonio will get headmin like he's deserved to for ages.
Nefertiti too.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16709

>Deadminning leads to drama

If an admin wants to start drama over getting deadminned, let them; it's pretty much a huge example of why they should be deadminned. Admins who intentionally start drama should be deadminned if we're going to scrutinize players who do it.

99% of deadminning should be for inactivity and requested cases where people are retiring. But there's always admins who need to be told when they're done, too, and that's what headmins are for, to talk to the host and get that process rolling if they find it's necessary. It's a job not everyone's ready for, and the headmins who applied already admitted they'll be willing to do it, so good luck.

I wouldn't be going so in-depth on this issue specifically if it wasn't a HUGE deal. I'm kind of sick of the oldfag admins still being here even though they're inactive as fuck to be quite honest. There's better people waiting to fill those positions, and the candidate thing has proven that.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Ikarrus » #16711

It's not like there's limited slots, though.

But yeah, admins that have been inactive for over a year should definitely be put back into the trial process at the very least.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16713

Why not instead of clogging up trialmins or admin observers just fucking deadmin them until they express desire to want to be an admin again? Then you can give them another trial period, which with their experience they'll obviously pass flawlessly and they're an admin again!

If anyone finds this process of re-applying unnecessary let me know because sticking inactive admins in trialmin/observer roles is much worse.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Munchlax » #16730

Is spacemanspark even an admin.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Kraso » #16734

nope
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Brotemis » #16792

I only have faith in Deuryn and Ikarrus and possibly HG.

Reason being that they know what's going on, have a good understanding of code, don't contribute to bullshit (As some others have in the list) and are dependable admins.

I still believe in the Glorious Leader Power Structure. Beyond that, Terranaut definitely deserved their deadminning. Beyond the whole 'physically stimulating' shit.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16793

I don't want to stir controversy or anything but hasn't erro basically renounced all involvement with this server/forum? I get that the apps were sent in a long time ago but it seems weird to include him.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16800

Ikarrus wrote:
miggles wrote:question to all candidates: what do you plan to do about taking action against admins who have made mistakes or abused power
current forms of punishment are limited to stern talkings to and warnings which are often ignored
It all depends on severity, really. If an admin's behavior can be corrected in a civil manner (simply speaking with them) then we should do just that. Serious or repeat issues after they've already been spoken to should be met with a significantly harsher response (temp/perma deadminning, admin-bans, restricting-permissions). After all, one bad admin makes the rest of us look bad, and violates the trust we should have with the players.

Historically, though, deadminning or even temp-deadminning anyone is guaranteed to cause a massive amount of drama (Terranaut & Elyina are some examples off the top of my head), so I can understand why it's been avoided. It also doesn't help that the last year or so headmins didn't have remote access, limiting their influence to admin-bans.

Really though, I think it's a process that should involve all the headmins, adminbus in general, and possibly even SOS, rather than one angry headmin. Reasonable and thorough discourse should be attempted first and foremost, but in a prompt manner.
this really does not seem at all different than the current process
as in, it seems like fucking nothing
its always been said that "repeated bad behavior" would be punished but the last time i can think of that off the top of my head was like.. CDB. and he fucked up way more times than should have been necessary for action to be taken.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Hibbles » #16802

I want you to name names right now, paprka, since you feel so strongly about this.

For myself, I'm extremely glad this is finally happening, and I've voted Anton, Panda, and Nerdti for very simple reasons: I know and have seen them all be active and do lots of things. Nerdti knows the code for this game quite well for an admin, much better than me. Pandar is already trusted to be head of robutts. All of them are confirmed for not-being-gigantic-assholes and I simply cannot overstate how important that is, both to them being admins, and their chances of like, doing the working together thing.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16803

that sounds like a great way to turn this thread into a shitstorm
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Hibbles » #16805

Implying it's already not being derailed hardcore. If people are going to use this as an important issue to be considered then let's not speak vaguely anymore.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16807

i dont think that speaking about how future headmins intend to run things is at all irrelevant to the topic "headmin elections general"
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dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Brotemis » #16808

CDB would be another example of someone being deadminned that deserved it. Albeit it took a while.

It proves a point that you should never trialmin someone who is generally regarded as a bad player. The idiom that "A bad player can be a good admin" is almost always wrong.

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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Bluespace » #16810

Yeah brotemis is right
Bad players are terrible admins
Absolutely
Terrible
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16812

bluespace is the terriblest admin
dezzmont wrote:I am one of sawrge's alt accounts
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Brotemis » #16817

Bluespace wrote:Yeah brotemis is right
Bad players are terrible admins
Absolutely
Terrible

This is where I would tell you to suck a dick because lelelel passive aggressive sarcasm :^)

There are always exceptions to the rule, you might be one of them and doubts were raised when you were trialminned but you proved people wrong
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Bluespace » #16822

Thank you miggly ;3
Sorry I just had to be a special snowflake and point it out.

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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Spacemanspark » #16844

geilebeer wrote:Is spacemanspark even an admin.
No.
I'd completely forgotten about this...
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by bandit » #16846

lots of votes siphoned off by joke and/or non-admin candidates
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16850

Deuryn, Hornygranny, Ikkarus 2014

These people actually have experience leading the playerbase in one capacity or another. Most other candidates are either jokes or people who genuinely don't know what they're getting in to.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by 420goslingboy69 » #16860

I'd rather have some new-blood who isn't pompous like HG. Deuryn has zero activity, and even though he is a nice person, is a complete and utter waste of a headmin slot. Ikkarus has always been iffy for me.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16865

Deuryn has experience and good judgement. He may not have a lot of consistent activity but he almost always appears when he's needed and he's reliable for that.

HG has the same experience and judgement. His communication with people continues to improve and in my opinion hasn't really been so bad as to be noteworthy for a while now...but that's my opinion of it.

Ikky has also been around for ages and been pretty important in different capacities over the years. There have been times when he probably could've pushed for more responsibilities and "power" and he hasn't...which to me is the best kind of person to give power. People who are reluctant to wield power are usually the best ones to have it.

You want to see how people who crave that kind of responsibility perform, look at the last batch of headmins and how many of them are still standing.

At any rate the biggest problem plaguing /tg/station these days is our godawful playerbase. I don't know how to put it nicely. The reason we get less new blood and have cultured a worse reputation than we have held in the past is because the average "fun" and roleplay has gone to shit. We are now where Goon was circa-2009-2010. We're the place people don't want to play on because they get ganged up on and admins listen more to their favorite players and special snowflakes, or are just too busy pushy buttons and fucking off to do anything.

I have no idea or suggestion to how to fix that, other than trying to recommend people vote for Headmins that remember a time before now or at least are disliked by the current playerbase because they aren't worth being liked by.

It's kinda like how you sometimes see parents out with their kids and their parents are dressing like their kids, trying to be cool and be their kids' friends instead of parents. If kids got to pick their parents they would pick Mr. and Mrs. RadicalFuntimes and never go to bed or go to school or eat their vegetables and eventually wind up partying in a pool of their own filth and decay or just starving to death.

It sounds fucking awful and I never thought I'd be saying it but I think we need to buckle down and make with the tough love. Stop feeding people fistfuls of candy and get back to basics.
Last edited by Timbrewolf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16868

Anton, pandar, and neerti being headminned remind me of when HBL was headminned. None of them are bad admins nor dickheads but it's a slippery slope from there. It's not like I'm perfectly justified in saying this either, but I seriously expected more people to choose from in addition to that.

Anton is probably the least experienced admin out of those leading this poll yet he's on top. Also, scaredy didn't make this poll apparently, erro did, which is probably enough to start raising some flags. I'll wait for SoS to make a statement regarding this poll before I take the results seriously. Elyina isn't even on the poll, even though scaredy confirmed he took elyina's application in last minute and was going to add them to the poll for headmin.
An0n3 wrote:At any rate the biggest problem plaguing /tg/station these days is our godawful playerbase.
Can you literally fuck off?
Last edited by paprika on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16869

I think they're great guys and I have no reason to question them as admins but none of them have the leadership quality or experience.

Being liked by the playerbase doesn't mean you're a good admin or would make a good headmin.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16870

That's exactly why HBL and intigracy were bad headmins.

Edit: the worst part about giving so much of a shit about the playerbase liking you is that you turn into a worse admin because of it. Trying to pander to people, trying to remain liked, and throwing a big dramatic hissy fit every time someone didn't like you are things both hbl and intigracy were EXTREMELY guilty of. And I already see hbl 2.0 coming out of all of these headmin candidates.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16872

I've played and observed a bit over the last month and read through a lot of the forum(s) and the steno board.

My judgement, that this current playerbase is fucking shit, is deserved and I'm entitled to make it.

I think a lot of admins would love to say that but can't because >politics but right now the single group in the triumverate of coders/admins/players that is most responsible for the worst parts of the state of /tg/station is the playerbase.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16874

If bad admins don't ban bad players guess who's fault that is
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the admins
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Bluespace
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Bluespace » #16875

Am I allowed to love the fuckwads that make up the Sybil regulars?
Shit son I don't get all this politic stuff. Just slap a headmin title on someone and tell them to make some good changes.
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Timbrewolf
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16876

It's a little more complicated than that.
But even in your supposition:

Bad admins aren't banning bad players, bad players whom elected the bad admins. Ultimately whose to blame for that? Everybody.

This isn't a thread for a whole debate about my opinions on shit I just wanted to give everyone some context for what you're really voting for and how you're all going to fuck this up again.
Last edited by Timbrewolf on Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16878

Players don't elect admins lmfao
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by ThanatosRa » #16879

NO HEADMIN. EVER.


Unless you do it like Highlander. For Real.
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gender is irrelevant NO UR IRRELEVANT
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16880

paprika wrote:Players don't elect admins lmfao
They have a lot more choice than you're aware of. CDB is an example of what happens when the playerbase tries its hardest against a high-profile admin while the adminbus tries its hardest to keep them around.

Ultimately what happened? Who won that one?

The same thing occurs frequently on a smaller scale. Players have driven off plenty of admins through just basic shittery and harassment. It's not a democratic vote, but the players do pick and choose in some fashion who they'll listen to or who they wont.

It's the reason for politics/conspiracies. Don't tell me you're totally unaware of it when you're doing all that you've been doing over the last few months.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by 420goslingboy69 » #16882

CDB should never have been admin. That's a dumb example.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Timbrewolf » #16885

CDB never had a chance to be any kind of admin because the playerbase properly railroaded them into the dirt. It's the perfect example of the power the playerbase wields and that I'm talking about.

Whether I think they could've made a decent admin or not is irrelevant to what actually happened. They were dogpiled by a constant spam of shit in and out of game.

That's the power the playerbase wields in that triumverate. You guys outnumber everybody else, and when you actually work together to agree on something you can make someone's life a living hell. Sometimes you even fuck up and do it to people you like without knowing and they run for the hills just the same.

Coders change things, admins ban, and players roar.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Hornygranny » #16889

Hopefully this election won't be a disastrous repeat of the current triumvirate, the current result of democracy. I wouldn't have predicted it to end the way it has, so I suppose you never know.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Aurx » #16892

An0n3:
You mention that admins need to crack down. My issue is that the playerbase is NOT properly reporting issues to the admins, and admins aren't properly responding to reports. I am sick and tired of the people who get griefed, and decide that the proper response is to bitch about it in post-round OOC. I am sick and tired of the people who make terrible adminhelps and have to be prompted for the information admins need to do any investigation. I am sick and tired of the people who respond to "Why didn't you adminhelp it" with "Admins never do anything". I am sick and tired of the fact that half the time I have to handle every damn adminhelp because everybody else just looks at it and thinks "Valid, can ignore". I am sick and tired of the admins who don't have the common decency to tell the player who just adminhelped that they're "Looking into it" so they know they're not being ignored. Most of all, I am sick and tired of the admins AND the players who assume the other side's out to get them and so they have to do everything themselves.

Hornygranny:
I still argue that the best way to have effective administrative leadership is to have one head administrator, and a fast, anonymous, and properly defined method for the other admins to replace them if they're causing issues or not doing anything.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by Hornygranny » #16893

I agree with you, I don't think we have need for three.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by paprika » #16895

At least the difference here is most of these admins would get along with each other regardless of who's put into place I think. That's extremely important. They don't have to agree, but they have to get along no matter what, or trying to come to a decision on things will be impossible for them. That's how it is now anyway.
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Re: Headmin Elections General

Post by miggles » #16896

i think cdb has become part of godwin's law
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