Headmin Elections General

[paprika]

Bottom post of the previous page:

At least the difference here is most of these admins would get along with each other regardless of who's put into place I think. That's extremely important. They don't have to agree, but they have to get along no matter what, or trying to come to a decision on things will be impossible for them. That's how it is now anyway.

[miggles]

i think cdb has become part of godwin's law

[Timbrewolf]

Clearer, swifter, more concrete punishments with an emphasis on rehabilitation



+



(and if you don't listen we eat your fucking face)

[Hornygranny]

i think cdb has become part of godwin's law

because cdb is literally hitler

[Hibbles]

http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=816

Probably relevant.

[paprika]

He's going to be back on friday.

[Brotemis]

Anon hit the nail on the head.

On literally everything.

Except on maybe CDB. They literally couldn't handle security matters in an unbiased way.

To the horrible playerbase, I'm attempting to crack down on bad behavior, particularly greyshirts who think it's an excuse to Griff or greytide, or just harass people in general.

[Antonkr]

After the election there will be about 4 weeks after my work is over after which I can take over admining full time. I do have a few questions to answer, with some in the thread and some being PMd but it would be close to impossible to write out too much on my phone. I will answer those asap when I get home friday.

Feel free to ask anything through thr thread or PMs.

[ThanatosRa]

Actually, You know what? I'm going to legitimize my shitpost.


What if, as an experiment, there were no headmins and all full admins were on equal footing. A council, or Congress as it were. All equal, etc.

[Neerti]

I would think nothing significant would get done due to conflicting opinions.

Also updated OP with info, the poll may be invalid now.

[Timbrewolf]

I just banned someone from security who called me an oppressive asshole who was purposely out to get him. He said that /tg/station is a place where powerhungry asshole admins oppress the players and by banning him from security I had "banned him from half the game".

I had only just met him when someone adminhelped about him, I read his notes and looked into the situation.

At any rate, that's the kind of shit players say about you when you're actually doing your job. The player who was abused and adminhelped gave me a thanks, but they wont remember the situation or who helped them. The person I banned from Sec is probably making an admin complaint or a ban appeal or something right now. They'll never forget me or the time this happened to them and I took away their stunbaton.

I just honestly have no patience for anyone who is universally loved by the playerbase as the answerer of prayers, the creator of events, the funguy cooldude admin.
There's always someone doing something you could be looking into instead of popping on the server to push a bunch of buttons. There are always appeals and requests and shit you could be handling.
So what happens is the same folks who can't abide shitters end up doing all that work in the backend while Google McChuckleFuck rarely does shit else but engage players and piss rainbows down their throats.
But what happens when everyone stops doing the drudge work to focus on the fun?

We're quickly finding that out.

EDIT: Not everyone, sorry. There are people still in the trenches doing shit and flying almost completely under the radar on the gratitude scale.
I'm just saying every single time I've logged in to the server over the last month it's the same faces and it's an event round.
If I wait long enough people eventually fall asleep and then I just quietly observe or mop floors/cook food and wait for PM's...
...all the while I'm getting spammed with prayers and requests for events and people are freaking the fuck out when I say no.

[paprika]

I don't mean to go too far off topic of headmins but we have overpopulation issues on sybil a lot of the time so I seriously doubt the admins couldn't lay the bans on a little thicker in regards to people grey tiding, excusing that behavior at all is shitty.

But instead of banning people for days or weeks, give them permanent assistant jobbans. Seriously. Playing assistant to have no responsibilities and a huge advantage as traitor (at least on sybil) is a privilege people abuse as non-antag to grief incessantly. There needs to be very strict policies on assistant behavior with serious, lengthy assistant jobban repercussions because the bulk of the shitty players play assistant almost exclusively, from what I've seen.

Banning someone from the server entirely is a lot less effective than a permanent jobban or antag ban. It's always there, looking at them, and at least in my experience as a new player, that's the thing that taught me my lesson and got me to appeal the ban and at least shape up my in game behavior a bit.

Anone, there's still time to apply to SoS before the legitimate in game poll goes up.

[Timbrewolf]

No, I don't think I would make a good headmin because I'm very aggressive about trying to preserve and recreate my own ideal of what was the golden age of /tg/station.

I like you all too much to want to make you have to deal with me in a headmin position. Hopefully people with more moderate judgement will get the position and choose to either listen or ignore me as it works for the greater good.

[paprika]

You're basically describing elyina and alien219 as far as 'underappreciated hard worker' is concenred but neither of them applied ripip

[Neerti]

Elyina applied.

[Timbrewolf]

Probably because they're both focused more on doing the things they feel need to be done rather than adding more to their plate.
On the one hand I think about what I could do as the Head of Bans again, but by that same token I'm almost afraid of what I would do as the Head of Bans.

I haven't been active enough in a long time. I already gave my recommendations for who I think would be the best genuine fit for headminship.

Seriously just look into the eyes of my weeb avatar and ask yourself if you would pick that dude to lead the group.

[miggles]

if everyone did the drudge work nobody would like any admin
there needs to be a good balance of funmins and admins who get down and do the dirty work and whether we have that now is debatable but trying to have all of one or the other will just lead to issues and people complaining out the ass

[Brotemis]

Or we could get better admins/ train our current ones that events aren't everything and you're expected to be able to do trudge work. We can literally find anyone who can push buttons and be well liked for it. (See HBL, badger station) but do fuck all concerning griefers or generally bad players because God forbid they pass someone off and they make a post claiming said admin banned them for being a shit.

I cut my teeth as a trialmin dealing with Roman and Tyler during the whole DDOS episode reading logs, making connections and zeroing in on him. Finding multiple CID's, ckey's, and IP'S and ensuring they all stayed banned and it ended with an ultimatum to Roman which he took.

Now that he's trying to come back, he's been banned in hilarious ways and his IP's nuked by SOS, most of the grunt work was done by NikNakflak with me only helping here and there.

Does Niknakflak ever get thanks for this? No. Does the playerbase even know half the stuff that happens on the backside of adminning? No. No one is going to thank someone for doing something they volunteered to do for free especially when they don't see the effects of it, only when it doesn't happen do they see it..

In short, some admins need to shape up fast and learn that adminning isn't about pleasing everyone.

[paprika]

Honestly after finding out about niknak's involvement in keeping the absolute worst of the worst players off this server by doing the dirty work, even if it's just busywork, makes him an infinitely better admin than the one that made me a god modded alien with a taser on a janicart. He went from 'brown nosing admin observer' to great contributor at least in my eyes extra fast. Maybe that's more my fault of reading admins at surface level, but that's a maturity issue that a lot of players suffer from, myself included. It's kind of nice to know that we have capable admins to keep extra strong flavored dickbags off the server and it makes me appreciate them a lot more.

It's not like everything the admins do is going to suddenly be clear as crystal and everyone in the playerbase is going to be let in on this shit either, which I don't expect, even if it does immediately improve people's perception of admins.

The worst part is? It IS about pleasing everyone Brotemis, because Scaredy decided that a popularity contest from the players would be a better idea for choosing headmins than something like, say, an admin-only vote. Headmins should be selected from these people that get a peek inside where we players don't, that see the actual contributions admins make, EVERY admin, not just the ones that spam events and are nice. Anton is a GREAT person too, but we need someone who no player is going to want to vote for most of the time and that's just how it is.

This would have been a better thing to bring up at the last community meeting on sunday but I was too butthurt about artyom not having the same DB to mention it. And I don't want to tell scaredy how to run his community or anything, but isn't it like a majority shared opinion of all the admins that headmin voting should be in-house and not involve players at all since it's not like headmins are the 'presidents of da servers'?

If anything all this poll will show is which admins get good rep with players, WHICH IS STILL SOMETHING SOME ADMINS SHOULD WORK ON, COUGH COUGH BROTEMIS COUGH COUGH, but it's not indicative of headmin quality.

It should be like choosing the pirate king.

The people who vote should be pirates.

[Subtle]

The vote is a joke and even if it happens to be legitimate should be disregarded in its entirety.
We, as a unit encompassing 100% of the administration, have zero organization and should just wait for SoS.

We're the place people don't want to play on because they get ganged up on and admins listen more to their favorite players and special snowflakes, or are just too busy pushy buttons and fucking off to do anything.

Bad admins aren't banning bad players, bad players whom elected the bad admins. Ultimately whose to blame for that? Everybody.

(As some others have in the list)

In short, some admins need to shape up fast and learn that adminning isn't about pleasing everyone.

While I like to see people not ass-kissing the startling vagueness in all these posts is just as bad. If you're both so up-in-arms about certain people in our administration I'm sure it would benefit us all more to be specific in your broad, negative, conveniently-message-supporting criticism.

WHO are the bad admins? WHO is playing favorites? WHO needs to shape up? WHO isn't banning people for greytide and generally being a dick?
WHO are these "event-all-day-every-day" people? Speaking with some degree of specificity helps your opinion actually mean something.

Everything here reeks of pushing a specific agenda instead of actually attempting to remove or criticize/change these people.

[Pandarsenic]

Funny thing is, the last admins picked and/or voted on by the players (me, Neerti, SubtleGraces, Antonkr, possibly someone around the time of Antonkr's adminship?) all seem to be in the group that Gets Shit Done.

Hi guys.

I summarized our silicon policy in a document and made hulks nonhuman and apparently this made other admins mad because it means they have to read the policy because it's written instead of unwritten.

Yeah I dunno.

[bandit]

Why are people discussing bad admins in a thread about headmin elections? (I mean, I know why.)

[paprika]

Whether or not you're admins that are nice for the sake of being nice AND nice admins that get shit done isn't something the average player will know.

And only one of those things is what's especially necessary for a headmin to do their job in a way that doesn't suck.

Again, nobody is pointing fingers here, at least I'm not. This ISN'T the time or the place for that.

This is a time and a place to discuss HOW headmins should be selected, and what criteria will benefit both the administration and the players, not a few applications and a popularity contest. Anyone can win a popularity contest. I think that's the real message brotemis and an0n3 are trying to convey. Stop taking things personally though, there's a reason they aren't being specific.

[NikNakFlak]

The only thing that ruffles my feathers a little is the fact that Deuryn and Errorage are even running. Deuryn is the invisible headmin that was in-active for 2+ years, and Errorage pretty much cut all ties (despite us still using ALL of his database tools, so props to that at least.) Everyone else running should just put out their stances like they have with those paper sheet thingys, and then some sort of vote should be done. I'm less about the how and more about the who honestly.

[Fateweaver]

can i be on the ballot

[Subtle]

Again, nobody is pointing fingers here, at least I'm not. This ISN'T the time or the place for that.

I understand what they're getting at but you can't have it both ways. Absolutely not.
Either stick to the facts and quit >implying about all the "problem-administrators" or stop pretending it's anything but that.

This is literally being vague as possible about the negatives and then name-dropping someone like NNF to prove a positive point.

It's pretty directly relevant to the discussion when "some people" and "folks who spoil the playerbase" are used as reasons why "some people" on that faulty April Fool's Joke of an election list shouldn't be elected. It's practically the only thing Brotemis talks about on the forums these days and quite frankly I'm tired of it. Whether I'm part of that group or not I don't want to see another Headmin election that just turns into dirty politics and complaining about the state of the server/how much more horrible it is than the days when we were a hundred-player at most community.

Either be specific or hold your tongue about "some people" on that list. They're running for Headmin, they can handle a little direct criticism.
If they can't then guess what? THEY SHOULDN'T BE RUNNING AT ALL.

[MisterPerson]

This thread has been enlightening about the state of /tg/station as a whole, the headmin election itself, and the opinions and mannerisms of many people. Because of this, I'm going to vote for someone completely different than I was planning, and that's a good thing. Gotta do some good, long thinking rather than the 0-thought strategy I had originally.

[Brotemis]

Ask and ye shall receive.

As to admins that need to improve that are running.


Elyina: Probably at the bottom of my list for multiple reasons. Acting as deputy head of bans means jack shit. You can't act with headmin authority, let alone defying an actual headmin decision. (See where Elyina copped a ban trying to override Intigracy.) There was also a time where Elyina had griefed a warden as a clown and then adminhelped they were being brigged for no reason. CDB handled the adminhelp and after a review process which I watched the entire time, it was determined Elyina was banbaiting after being a shit and CDB attempted to place a ban on them for such. Regular bans do not effect admins and even after repeated kicks, Elyina refused to take a time out.

I should have stepped in and placed an admin ban which would have actually sticked. The one time I see CDB right on a security issue, they get shitted on by Elyina.

Neerti: next up. Still lacking experience from what I've seen but is one of "those" admins that is defined in large by events and makes pushes for absolutely needless policies and rules which is a burden for players and chains for admins. You want to improve the server? Ban the shitheads and tell them to deal with it when they complain.

Pandarsenic: Hulks are human. Just because the AI is inconvenienced by the fact they can't do anything to them is just that. For someone who can single handedly murder the station, they should fear hulks. The obvious solution is that no one is going to fault the AI for looking the other way when hulk's get their shit kicked in by security. That being said, it's not hard to follow laws and understand grammar. There is no need for a whole bunch of hypothetical situations that need rules. No need to shoehorn game play into a flowchart

[WeeYakk]

I used one of my votes on Spacemanspark :^)

[Pandarsenic]

We can't hold players liable for policies we don't tell them about.

Edit:

Open http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=478
If you had something to say, you should've said it, but you didn't. This policy in the community's hands, now. Silicons cannot simultaneously be held accountable for their laws, at all times, in all places which they nominally ARE, and told "But let the hulk die."

[paprika]

Direct criticism of the admins is for feedback threads subtle. Once again, there's a reason the negative finger pointing is being kept ambiguous. All you need to know in that argument is that in the eyes of those admins making the point, that type of admin exists, and as much as you want to make this an administrative dick comparison contest you sort of need to realize that the point behind keeping it ambiguous is to avoid that. Those discussions can be held elsewhere, because that's BESIDES THE POINT right now.

Edit: Oh look, you wanted direct criticism and pandar fired back with retarded shit flinging. GOOD JOB GUYS, DERAILING THE THREAD. Fucking disgusting, Subtle.

Someone should lock this thread before more of this shit happens because it inevitably will.

[420goslingboy69]

Ask and ye shall receive.

As to admins that need to improve that are running.


Elyina: Probably at the bottom of my list for multiple reasons. Acting as deputy head of bans means jack shit. You can't act with headmin authority, let alone defying an actual headmin decision. (See where Elyina copped a ban trying to override Intigracy.) There was also a time where Elyina had griefed a warden as a clown and then adminhelped they were being brigged for no reason. CDB handled the adminhelp and after a review process which I watched the entire time, it was determined Elyina was banbaiting after being a shit and CDB attempted to place a ban on them for such. Regular bans do not effect admins and even after repeated kicks, Elyina refused to take a time out.

I should have stepped in and placed an admin ban which would have actually sticked. The one time I see CDB right on a security issue, they get shitted on by Elyina.

Neerti: next up. Still lacking experience from what I've seen but is one of "those" admins that is defined in large by events and makes pushes for absolutely needless policies and rules which is a burden for players and chains for admins. You want to improve the server? Ban the shitheads and tell them to deal with it when they complain.

Pandarsenic: Hulks are human. Just because the AI is inconvenienced by the fact they can't do anything to them is just that. For someone who can single handedly murder the station, they should fear hulks. The obvious solution is that no one is going to fault the AI for looking the other way when hulk's get their shit kicked in by security. That being said, it's not hard to follow laws and understand grammar. There is no need for a whole bunch of hypothetical situations that need rules. No need to shoehorn game play into a flowchart

I largely agree with most of what Brotemis said.

[Pandarsenic]

I think "Should we tell players about the policies we enforce" is a valid debate.

[Bluespace]

Hypothetically, if we went with "one person holds all the power" , who would be qualified to hold that power?

[Subtle]

Remember that part about "shouldn't be running at all" Paprika?

It's as much the burden of those responding to criticism as those creating it. I'd rather have people bringing up their issues with potential Headmin candidates in the Headmin Thread than another discussion full of empty politicking and hands-off complaints about the state of the server in general. You're arguing the specifics of a public election that literally doesn't exist. SoS didn't seem to interested in a public vote so far as I can tell and, personally? I applaud Brotemis for presenting his concerns about the candidates. Those issues are what matter! Not highborne, empty ideals and bullshit technical arguments.

The singular worthwhile purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits of those people we want in charge of the administration team when the real ones happen.

If this isn't the place for that there's literally no other. Feedback threads, as most people have come to realize, are relatively impractical for genuine feedback.

To answer Bluespace's question about the only person I'd trust as "Supreme Leader" is Ikkarus. Mostly because in my experience they're agenda-free.

[Jordie0608]

Due to the current polls not being legitimate (pendersanic honk) and the devolution that has occurred over one day, this thread is being taken down with SoS's approval.

A new thread will be created when the election is officially started.