Public Headmin Discussion

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Subtle
 
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Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Subtle » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:59 am #17032

Since the previous one turned out to be over a false poll...
I'd like to open an outlet for direct, relevant praise/feedback/criticism/questions to, or regarding, our potential Headmin candidates.
Spoiler:
Antonkr
Deuryn
Hornygranny
Ikarrus
Neerti
Pandarsenic
Elyina
Fateweaver(?)

There's presently no place for these opinions other than Singulo.io; discussion here could allow us to identify both the positive and negative qualities of these administrators in a place set apart from the bubbles within Feedback-Threads. This is extremely important because each of those threads is almost a world of its own, it's difficult to address concerns regarding certain situations (such as an election) in a setting where the focus is on a single individual.

So with that in mind let's put these Administrator's platforms out on display. Lets ask them what they plan on doing with their power. Let's try to make their decisions accountable to the public at large; the ones they're in-part supposed to represent. If you've got a bone to pick or a question to ask this is the place for it!

Please keep discussion over the form these elections might take to a minimum, as there is presently no guarantee such a thing will be put up to a similar public vote. This is not an official thread; one will be made once the details are decided by SoS. I don't expect handholding, I don't expect hugboxing. I do expect what you bring into this discussion to be specific to a candidate(s)/the election-in-general and backed up by at least some form of reasoning.

To start us off I'll put a question toward all the candidates; "What are your definitions of powergaming and metagaming in relation to /tg/station?"
Last edited by Subtle on Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.



PostThis post was deleted by Fateweaver on Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:08 am.

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miggles
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby miggles » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:04 pm #17036

I would like to ask this again to anyone who did not answer it:
me wrote:question to all candidates: what do you plan to do about taking action against admins who have made mistakes or abused power
current forms of punishment are limited to stern talkings to and warnings which are often ignored

those that have answered have certainly given me an answer worth thinking over
dezzmont wrote:I am one of sawrge's alt accounts

dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.

Connor wrote:miggles is correct though

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Miauw
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Miauw » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:51 pm #17050

I'm following this with interest but I probably don't have much to contribute since I consider most admins p cool guys.

Adminbus seems to realize what coderbus realized during the split: everything is on fire and nobody noticed.
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Pandarsenic
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Pandarsenic » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:05 pm #17055

I'll try to attend this thread from work when I can get free moments, but powergaming and metagaming are putting personal "winning" before the collective group's fun in ways I'll go into detail on and don't let me forget or be distracted.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Timbrewolf
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Timbrewolf » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:41 pm #17071

Whichever headmin has the balls to force random for a month or so will be the hero this station needs.

Which one of you is that?
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Hornygranny
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Hornygranny » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:38 pm #17080

Only I have the brains to rule Lylat.
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miggles
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby miggles » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:20 pm #17086

An0n3 wrote:Whichever headmin has the balls to force random for a month or so will be the hero this station needs.

Which one of you is that?

fuck you
dezzmont wrote:I am one of sawrge's alt accounts

dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.

Connor wrote:miggles is correct though

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Helios127
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Helios127 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:16 pm #17089

Honestly? Pretty much ALL the canidets are good except for Hornygranny. I have no problems with absolutly any of them.

Pandar would be a good pick, though.
just play on /vg/station, go have fun for christs sake

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Kelenius
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Kelenius » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:18 pm #17090

Pick not the admin you want, but the admin you deserve.

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420goslingboy69
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby 420goslingboy69 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:58 pm #17092

None of these admins are leaders. They all are either uncharismatic, biased, impartial, un-empathetic, or un-dutiful. Not that they are bad people, but they don't have the character to lead imo.
i play :):):):):)autumn sinnow
this man's:):):):):) army
DESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTRO:):):):):)YERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERD:):):):):)ESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROY:):):):):)ERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDEST:):):):):)ROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDES:):):):):)TROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYERDESTROYER
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEteJhp ... EteJhp-Ezs
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Brotemis
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Brotemis » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:03 pm #17094

420goslingboy69 wrote:None of these admins are leaders. They all are either uncharismatic, biased, impartial, un-empathetic, or un-dutiful. Not that they are bad people, but they don't have the character to lead imo.


Fuck your opinion mang.
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Subtle
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Subtle » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:42 pm #17099

420goslingboy69 wrote:None of these admins are leaders. They all are either uncharismatic, biased, impartial, un-empathetic, or un-dutiful. Not that they are bad people, but they don't have the character to lead imo.

Well, why do you feel that way? Is there anybody on the list here that you'd trust in the position at all?

Helios127 wrote:Honestly? Pretty much ALL the canidets are good except for Hornygranny. I have no problems with absolutly any of them.

Pandar would be a good pick, though.

So what makes Pandar exceptional by comparison? Is there a particular reason that stands out for you?

An0n3 wrote:Whichever headmin has the balls to force random for a month or so will be the hero this station needs.

Which one of you is that?

This one I'm curious about. Do you think random-names will break up the current metacliques we have? Are there too many snowflakes?

Some quality discussion so far. Practicing our Donte impressions is clearly an important part of the process, but sarcasm aside I think we can do a bit better than "everyone is great" and "everyone is shit"; at least we've managed to find a starting point. To those of you who feel we have no acceptable candidates, well, who should be running then? Give me alternatives. I hunger to force people into rational discourse, my autism demands it. Resistance is futile.

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bandit
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby bandit » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:56 pm #17101

Ikarrus and Neerti have extensive coding experience, Antonkr has consistently proven himself to be level-headed and personable, and Pandarsenic has proven himself to be level-headed and willing to be a dissenting voice when called for. Deuryn would also be a good choice - obviously, as he has experience - but I think he might be too burnt out and/or inactive.
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admin feedback pls

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WeeYakk
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby WeeYakk » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:14 pm #17110

Who is deuryn, and why is he running again?
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TheTerbs
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby TheTerbs » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:23 pm #17124

I would like to be put on the ballot please.

People love me and I dont even play the game, plus im not in the adminluminati so im basically Ron Paul except ron paul is fucking stupid and terrible and hates gays and won't ever win
you're gonna carry that weight

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paprika
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby paprika » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:19 pm #17147

Deuryn reapplied and was Super Excited to get back in the game and actually be an active headmin back in February when he thought headmin selection was going to be. Somewhere in march I'm pretty sure he knew that it'd be another 6 months before admin elections so that's why he's in the poll but AWOL atm.

A bit more on topic:

Once again I think the most pressing issue here is less about which admins are running or which admins should be picked because while I'm sure everyone wants to piss around and compare admin cocks and throw shit over it, that's not what's important. What's important is HOW admins are picked, and if HBL/Intig/deuryn's election is anything to go by, PLAYER VOTES DO NOT WORK.

A new way for headmins to be picked should be decided upon before we start going 'oh this admin is more qualified!' etc etc. It's seriously not even half as important as this right now.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby miggles » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:36 pm #17152

every time anyone says that someone else asks "how?" and then they provide a stupid answer like "let admins decide" and everyone else agrees that player votes are actually the least bad way to do it
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dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.

Connor wrote:miggles is correct though

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:14 am #17160

Scaredy is supposed to be the host and El Jefe Spacerino
Would it be too much to ask him to just look at everyone that wants the position and make the decision himself?

And yeah I think forcing random for at least a month would do a lot of good by forcing people to:

1) Stop the metafuckery
2) Metacommunicate to continue the metafuckery, in which case you become a very easy target for permabanning and we've rid ourselves of a shitter
3) Leave, if metafuckery with your circlejerk is the only reason you play

I also think Hitler did nothing wrong and I'm the next Bearded Hitler and a horrible oppressive asshole etc. etc. etc.
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bandit
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby bandit » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:21 am #17161

paprika wrote:Once again I think the most pressing issue here is less about which admins are running or which admins should be picked because while I'm sure everyone wants to piss around and compare admin cocks and throw shit over it, that's not what's important. What's important is HOW admins are picked, and if HBL/Intig/deuryn's election is anything to go by, PLAYER VOTES DO NOT WORK.


I'm pretty sure the drama with HBL, Intigracy and Deuryn is entirely on HBL, Intigracy and (probably to a lesser extent) Deuryn, and not the players' fault.
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Brotemis
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Brotemis » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:27 am #17164

public elections are bad.

"Community" advocates and the current headmins are both examples of this.

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miggles
 
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby miggles » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:37 am #17167

An0n3 wrote:Scaredy is supposed to be the host and El Jefe Spacerino
Would it be too much to ask him to just look at everyone that wants the position and make the decision himself?

And yeah I think forcing random for at least a month would do a lot of good by forcing people to:

1) Stop the metafuckery
2) Metacommunicate to continue the metafuckery, in which case you become a very easy target for permabanning and we've rid ourselves of a shitter
3) Leave, if metafuckery with your circlejerk is the only reason you play

I also think Hitler did nothing wrong and I'm the next Bearded Hitler and a horrible oppressive asshole etc. etc. etc.

remember april fools last year when everyone got mad as fuck about that and it was supposed to just be a stupid 1 day joke
if theres an issue with people metacommunicating you fucking ban them, that's how it works, you don't penalize everyone who plays the server
i honestly don't see a point in playing ss13 if you can't even decide your own character. that's like trying to play dnd with a blank character sheet. it's a roleplaying game, not an action shooter.
knowing people and being able to have friends in game is a good thing and promotes healthy social behavior. if people are making cliques and causing problems you fucking ban them why dont you get this
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dezzmont wrote:sawrge has it right.

Connor wrote:miggles is correct though

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Higgin » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:46 am #17168

My suggestion?

Have the admins do a vote in their secret admin forum to determine who they think would make the best headmin amongst themselves. Let current headmins vote on it, too.
The people with significant numbers of votes are moved on to a poll for players to vote on. If the most-voted admin lines up in both polls, you've got a pretty clear candidate because you've got somebody who's both respected by the playerbase and accepted under the scrutiny of the admins we've already got.

If the playerbase and admin staff don't agree on a person between these elections, cut out the back of the pack and have a re-vote between a smaller number of candidates so that the people are voting to their preferred choice. Do this both in the admin forums and the public forums.

If you get two candidates and they're both about even on votes, there are a few possibilities: give it over to the headmins to decide; ask each candidate if they'd like to defer to the other; or simply add two headmins.

If we get all of the current admins on a level split of votes, buy a lotto ticket and wear ice skates to your funeral - Hell has frozen over and this isn't going to happen.

To clarify:

1)Admins vote; the most successful and close contenders (no less than 3) move on to a player poll.
2)The players vote; if the players and admins both ended up voting the same admin to the top far away and above, that's a clear candidate.
3)If they didn't end up doing that and there's a contest between two or three admins out of all of those in the #2 voting pool, remove the underdogs and revote amongst the admins - if a popular candidate from the first admin vote was deemed extremely unpopular by the player vote, keep them in unless they end up voted out in this vote.
4)Take it to a player vote again and see if you can find a popular candidate between both the staff and the playerbase.
5)Hopefully take your final candidate(s) and make them into a headmin(s) or get a headmin ruling on which, if not both, will finally be elected. If impossible because of too many candidates, repeat steps 3-4.
6???) Just ask Scaredy.

Both votes are important. The people who have to interpret and enforce policy are admins, and headmins are the predicators of policy and the settlers of issues within the staff. It's important for them to both have a good scope on the game's community, as hopefully reflected by the player vote; and it's important for them to be well-liked and respected by the admins that they're going to be guiding in how they rule over the game.

Scaredy is supposed to be the host and El Jefe Spacerino
Would it be too much to ask him to just look at everyone that wants the position and make the decision himself?

And yeah I think forcing random for at least a month would do a lot of good by forcing people to:

1) Stop the metafuckery
2) Metacommunicate to continue the metafuckery, in which case you become a very easy target for permabanning and we've rid ourselves of a shitter
3) Leave, if metafuckery with your circlejerk is the only reason you play

I also think Hitler did nothing wrong and I'm the next Bearded Hitler and a horrible oppressive asshole etc. etc. etc.


This is fine too. Asking Scaredy would simplify things a lot. Having player/admin polls to get an idea of how people feel about different admins, anyway, wouldn't be a bad idea to give Scaredy some more scope on the matter within the community.

AS FOR RANDOM:
No. At least not on Artyom.

There's an overlap between what you're hitting with "metafuckery" (which could do with some better description) and RP, and I'm pretty sure we already had this argument back when IC lovers were breaking into the brig to rescue their waifus/husbandos every round. (Dalta pls.)

First, though, how about antag meta from consistent characters?
While removing all consistent characters would be more honest to SS13 as a paranoid game of workplace alienation, the server is "light RP;" that's a large part of what people find enjoyable, playing their special snowflakes out amongst other recognizable special snowflakes in a cast of special snowflakes that, at any given point, could have a snowflake licensed as "valid" with the ability to kill everyone on the station. This is what people enjoy and this is still SS13 - anyone could be a potato. Anyone could be a cult. Some people might not be these things because they don't have their preferences set to them and this might become recognizable over time, but in the most common modes, like traitor, that's hardly the case - everyone's rolling for their license to antag. When there are enough people for the more obscure modes, there are enough people to offset these patterns of preference.
No random. Random not good.

Flying from the hip on your definition of metafuckery, how about IC interactions between characters?
Antags have license to do whatever they want within some basic laws of the server. Non-antag players are also subject to those rules and a few more. Everyone has the ability to roll for antag unless they've fucked up in the past. People like to RP and guide their actions along that. As you aren't already punishing people for breaking those basic laws, you're arguing that they'll break the metacomms rules to continue doing things that weren't breaking the rules beforehand i.e. RPing, thus allowing you to ban them as a 'shitter' for an offense that is usually an issue because of gameplay concerns where antags and greentext are concerned - not RP. People don't get banned for metacomms because Medbay McStutterwhore OOCly told Science Seductress that Security Harshman cheated on her character with La Capitana. People don't get banned for their character visiting a friend in the brig - they get banned for bombing the brig the second their friend is arrested for 10 minutes without attempting to verify anything or asking beforehand, which is itself a dick move towards security now that antag-sec and imprison objectives are gone, meta though that be. We already argued that back in the aforementioned days when Dalta, Jarsh, et. al. used to have problems with doing that.

What you're suggesting is pretty much entrapment for something that isn't breaking the rules in the first place. Why? I don't know. You can explain that yourself. If people are already breaking the rules by RPing then there are a lot of people who need to be banned; and your suggestion of random as a solution to people RPing is unfun and baseless relative to any of our current rules.

As for circlejerks?
"Leave, if playing and RPing with consistent characters and people you get along with is the only reason you play."
Ban people for things that break the rules. Not for things that they like to do that don't fundamentally damage the game.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby ColonicAcid » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:53 am #17169

miggles wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Scaredy is supposed to be the host and El Jefe Spacerino
Would it be too much to ask him to just look at everyone that wants the position and make the decision himself?

And yeah I think forcing random for at least a month would do a lot of good by forcing people to:

1) Stop the metafuckery
2) Metacommunicate to continue the metafuckery, in which case you become a very easy target for permabanning and we've rid ourselves of a shitter
3) Leave, if metafuckery with your circlejerk is the only reason you play

I also think Hitler did nothing wrong and I'm the next Bearded Hitler and a horrible oppressive asshole etc. etc. etc.

remember april fools last year when everyone got mad as fuck about that and it was supposed to just be a stupid 1 day joke
if theres an issue with people metacommunicating you fucking ban them, that's how it works, you don't penalize everyone who plays the server
i honestly don't see a point in playing ss13 if you can't even decide your own character. that's like trying to play dnd with a blank character sheet. it's a roleplaying game, not an action shooter.
knowing people and being able to have friends in game is a good thing and promotes healthy social behavior. if people are making cliques and causing problems you fucking ban them why dont you get this

nah nah nah
force random was fun as fuck fuck you unfun faggots
we need like a whole week of just force random i would actually play 24/7 because it would be ~fun~ and the best part was when all the cool kids somehow found eachother anyway and continued doing the exact same thing they did as if they weren't all random.
that was the funnest bit tbqh.
Last edited by ColonicAcid on Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
crack is whack but smacks got your back

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Mandurrrh » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:53 am #17170

miggles wrote:
An0n3 wrote:Scaredy is supposed to be the host and El Jefe Spacerino
Would it be too much to ask him to just look at everyone that wants the position and make the decision himself?

And yeah I think forcing random for at least a month would do a lot of good by forcing people to:

1) Stop the metafuckery
2) Metacommunicate to continue the metafuckery, in which case you become a very easy target for permabanning and we've rid ourselves of a shitter
3) Leave, if metafuckery with your circlejerk is the only reason you play

I also think Hitler did nothing wrong and I'm the next Bearded Hitler and a horrible oppressive asshole etc. etc. etc.

remember april fools last year when everyone got mad as fuck about that and it was supposed to just be a stupid 1 day joke
if theres an issue with people metacommunicating you fucking ban them, that's how it works, you don't penalize everyone who plays the server
i honestly don't see a point in playing ss13 if you can't even decide your own character. that's like trying to play dnd with a blank character sheet. it's a roleplaying game, not an action shooter.
knowing people and being able to have friends in game is a good thing and promotes healthy social behavior. if people are making cliques and causing problems you fucking ban them why dont you get this


I think it's hard for them to decide where the line between acceptable ic relationship/meta cliquish should be drawn. But I agree with Miggles. It's a role playing game. If we can't use our own characters and are just supposed to KO each other it's not really spessmen. I think it's not as black and white easy fix as anon3 wants to believe but going to be a constant and continuous best decision possible based on individuals scenarios. Which is why we need good leaders who will be present and active. We don't need a month of forced randoms from an admin who's not present in the community or games. We need active leaders more consistently involved. Artyom has gone from no admins to us knowing and trusting a handful very well. We are doing better and continuing in that direction is what's best.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby ColonicAcid » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:56 am #17172

Higgin wrote:As for circlejerks?
"Leave, if playing and RPing with consistent characters and people you get along with is the only reason you play."
Ban people for things that break the rules. Not for things that they like to do that don't fundamentally damage the game.

>circlejerks don't fundementally damage the game.

.............................
are you for real right now?
like i'm just gobsmacked.
like woooooooooooooooooooooooow.
crack is whack but smacks got your back

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Higgin » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:49 am #17182

ColonicAcid wrote:
Higgin wrote:As for circlejerks?
"Leave, if playing and RPing with consistent characters and people you get along with is the only reason you play."
Ban people for things that break the rules. Not for things that they like to do that don't fundamentally damage the game.

>circlejerks don't fundementally damage the game.

.............................
are you for real right now?
like i'm just gobsmacked.
like woooooooooooooooooooooooow.

>people don't associate into groups
>this doesn't happen in randomname games anyway
>"metafuckery", metacomms and rule 1 violations = RP

People being dicks and flipping off the handle against sec et. al. because of their characters' relationships are still being dicks. That crosses the line which admins are called upon to judge.
People associating with each other and making friends don't harm the game. Everyone has the possibility of being a traitor and flipping that around with full license to do so if they wish, so group security is no benefit.
RP is not the problem and I'm against random-naming because it'd kill RP, remove a lot of interesting characters, not address the problems of people breaking rules, metacomms, and frienddickery, and accomplish little but turning Artyom into Basil and Sibyl into Sibyl with different names.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby paprika » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:16 am #17184

Why is letting admins decide headmins a bad way to go about it? There was a long discussion about how players don't see the behind the scenes contributions that admins make, aka the contributions that matter a lot more most of the time, thus their opinion on fellow admins carries more weight than 99% of players who just vote for who's the nicest admin or the admin who hasn't pissed someone off.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:30 am #17186

This "friendly RP" has all but ruined the fucking game.

If I'm a random-faced assistant and I walk up to the Chemist and I ask for something, it's usually a simple matter of what I'm asking for and how scrupulous the Chemist is.

If I'm part of the circlejerk it doesn't matter what my job is or what I'm asking for, I'm going to get it.
When the circlejerk is large enough that it's spread out over a few different departments you get a network of assholes supplying eachother with everything the station has to offer.
When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.
A new player might ask for something and get rejected only to watch someone just like themselves wander up and receive full service and they wonder what the fuck is going on here.

Our gradual acceptance of more and more "meta" behavior has turned the station into a fucking middle-school playground.

But it's okay because our characters are friends and friends help eachother out.

At worst this even extends into FNR where people start phoning in friends to come vouch for themselves or against the person they're having problems with.

What boggles my mind about this is you're all retarded one-dimensional characters that you cling to like you're enacting shakespear everyday on the station. DONT TAKE AWAY MY ROLEPLAYS! MY CHARACTER IS VERY SPECIAL TO ME! Bullshit your character is just a skintone, a haircut, and a name. And a list of people you cooperate with and a list of people you don't.

If I could I would smash all that shit with a giant hammer.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Swagile » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:31 am #17187

And players tend to pick admins who makes the most events.

Or most interesting.

But, like pap said, there's a lot of behind-the-scene work that goes on that is usually more important.





and anon is based god, he knows whats up. i agree 100%, no sarcasm or :^) face. the meta is real and needs to stop.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Timbrewolf » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:38 am #17189

I wont name any names because the fucking ridiculous part of it all is that I like everyone I'm complaining about.
I'll tell you in general terms that I think what you're doing is wrong and really fucking sucks but I'm not going to force you to change, because in some weird way I consider you friends.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Isane » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:58 am #17194

Or you could name names so people don't think you're blowing an issue way out of proportion. Especially since your suggestion to fix it is something that would piss off the majority of the servers.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Higgin » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:11 am #17199

paprika wrote:Why is letting admins decide headmins a bad way to go about it? There was a long discussion about how players don't see the behind the scenes contributions that admins make, aka the contributions that matter a lot more most of the time, thus their opinion on fellow admins carries more weight than 99% of players who just vote for who's the nicest admin or the admin who hasn't pissed someone off.

It isn't.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Higgin » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:21 am #17201

"Friendly RP" doesn't happen when that person can and does turn around and shoot you for the greentext, but that doesn't always happen - so there's some point. It's as random as those scruples you're talking about.

But we say that this is a light-RP game. If we want it to be pure, paranoid, alienated SS13, random-name away. I and a lot of others like RP and random-naming would kill a lot of character interaction, development, and fun - take a visit to the backstories page. People DO RP, and you inhabit Sibyl for the largest part of your time around, Anon.

When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.
A new player might ask for something and get rejected only to watch someone just like themselves wander up and receive full service and they wonder what the fuck is going on here.


As we've been arguing at the level of anecdotal evidence this whole time, I'm gonna say that I haven't seen this sort of thing happen very often on Artyom. People aren't always unfair dildos and this isn't going to address those that are.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby bandit » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:18 am #17206

The circlejerk stuff is stupid and separate and has nothing to do with headmin elections. If you really don't like it, be the change you wish to see in the world and randomname yourself. (It's also completely fucking pointless if no one names names.)

Blaming the players for admins or headmins' behavior is also stupid. The players didn't make two out of three headmins stop talking to each other or disappear and make the headmin system functionally useless. There is literally no line of reasoning that makes this the case. The players didn't even have any knowledge that this would happen, and if you say you knew it would happen you're fucking Nostradamus.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Pandarsenic » Thu Jul 03, 2014 5:47 am #17215

FACT: I have, personally, gotten all-access I didn't even ask for because someone liked me. This led to me murdering half the station because I realized it eventually, and I was a changeling. This same person was banned in the same round for giving a lawyer all-access then tasing sec when they tried to stop the lawyer from grabbing sec gear without saying anything about it.

It DOES happen a nonzero amount of times, and it shouldn't, but all randomname won't fix that.

Anyway, to answer the original question: "What are your definitions of powergaming and metagaming in relation to /tg/station?"
Powergaming is when you go over the top with gearing yourself up for fights before you have a reason to expect them, usually so you can valid the shit out of an antag who shows up - getting yourself sunglasses, holy water, space lube spray, a stun prod, cable cuffs, a hardsuit helmet... shooting and force-implanting people as soon as the mention of flashing in the hallways goes up so that conversions will fail...
Getting the coveted insulated gloves at roundstart as Captain or HoP...
In short, going "I don't need these... but I MIGHT, so I'm getting them, so I can Win if it comes up."

Metagaming is following around the dude with the roundstart flash until he flashes you or to robust him posthaste, or yelling "REVOLUTIONARIES" at the first sound of a flash, or god fucking help you if you compare the number of readies to the number of PDAs and silicons to figure out whether it's a wizard (1 PDA missing) or nuke ops round (5 missing) and get ready to face it, or otherwise reacting to threats that you only know because of out-of-character knowledge applied in an anti-immersive way. Using OoC knowledge like how many people readied or the like is metagaming, as would to my eyes the old "He is repulsively uncanny!" message on humans, where it was literally possible to declare someone too ugly to be human, and thus they had to be a ling, until I asked hornygranny to make a pull to change it (which went through) and make it apparent they were nonhuman, not just a gross old person. So is something like spacing yourself if you're being attacked by a changeling or cult in case they have to take your brain or sac you.

So powergaming: Acting in an unreasonable way IC because of OoC desire to win a conflict when you don't even know IF it will happen; Metagaming: Acting in an unreasonable way IC because of OoC knowledge of game patterns and mechanics.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Mat13295 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:54 am #17225

You guys remember the last April fool's with random name enforced? People found a way to find out who their friends were and just continued playing as if static names were still in.
I don't even play here anymore, hue.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Fatal » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:06 am #17227

Regarding the whole, circlejerk thing slightly

This often seems to be the cause of a lot of the greytiding, and is anything going to be done about it? The greytiding is getting out of control quite often on sybil now and I frankly refuse to play security until people stop it

Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Pandarsenic » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:08 am #17228

Fatal wrote:Regarding the whole, circlejerk thing slightly

This often seems to be the cause of a lot of the greytiding, and is anything going to be done about it? The greytiding is getting out of control quite often on sybil now and I frankly refuse to play security until people stop it

Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)


I already ban for gray tiding. If you fuck with anyone, you had better have a reason. Sec is no exception. If you harass sec just because they're sec, I will ban you and say "Get your shit together by the time you're back." If everyone enforced Rule 1 about that matter, it wouldn't be a problem.
(2:53:35 AM) scaredofshadows: how about head of robutts
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby WeeYakk » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:19 am #17240

An0n3 wrote:When the circlejerk is large enough that it's spread out over a few different departments you get a network of assholes supplying eachother with everything the station has to offer.
When a player the circlejerk doesn't like tries to do basic shit they'll often be interfered with every step of the way by seemingly the entire station.


Sounds like how a well behaved, law abiding crew is supposed to work. Departments interacting and supplying each other as needed.
People who are good employees get trusted to be good. People who are shit are expected to act like shit and do not get the same privileges. Seems pretty in character.

Maybe I'm in too deep (or it's happening on Sybil but I wouldn't know that cause I don't play there) but I don't see the "metacliques" operating at a game ruining level.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby MisterPerson » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:36 am #17245

Frankly I don't think it matters who we pick. All the candidates are running on a "the system works, why change it?" platform. None of them have any remotely controversial viewpoints or proposed changes (unless An0n3 started running while I wasn't looking). Thus it basically comes down to who the other admins will follow, and the only people with an inkling of that are the admins themselves. And even if we do fuck up and elect Hitler, Stalin, and Obama, I'm pretty sure all the other admins would continue to run things pretty well because they're all pretty dedicated and not retarded. I mean shit, look at the state of things right now and how everything continues to function. Bureaucracy in action ladies and gentlemen.

So unless someone would like to reveal their secret desire to unban 2beard or something equally absurd, I'd stop worrying so damn much on how headmins are chosen or even who they are and instead just do some changing of the guard ASAP.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Psyentific » Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:16 am #17251

Honestly, the only reason we need headmins is to elevate FNRs and policies and such. The only thing bad with the old set was HBL/Inti drama, and two of my favorite admins driving each other up the wall. If I had to pick three, though? I dunno, Pando, Bluspess, Antonkr?
I haven't logged into SS13 in at least a year.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Helios127 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:42 am #17271

Mat13295 wrote:You guys remember the last April fool's with random name enforced? People found a way to find out who their friends were and just continued playing as if static names were still in.


Metagaming is a bannable offense.

Anyways, I really dont know where this 'stop the metafreinds circlejerk' discussion came upon, because from my experiance playing it doesnt happen. Not on Artoym at least, and I have a feeling that even if it does happen on sybil, its not to nightmarish degrees where something needs to be done where one will gladly out themselves as an antag... and still get help from their metabuddy anyways.

Aside from Hornygranny, ALL OF THE HEADMIN CANDIATES ARE REALLY GOOD! I personally like Pandarsenic, but Anton is also a pretty sweet choice. Fortunetly theres really no need to worry about HG getting the position judging from the pre-polls. HG is a awful choice and everyone seems to know this now.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Subtle » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:16 pm #17275

Now we're getting somewhere!

It would be interesting to see where some of our other candidates fall on the subject of metagamers/meta-cliques. To those who suggest it's unimportant who we elect; I'd say that even this conversation is preferable to blindly voting for whoever provided you with the most cookies the last time you prayed. (And if the last public elections, including this fake one, are anything to go by that's a real problem) I continue to insist we can't argue over the form these elections take because we've all come to realize public votes are terrible. There are some very real doubts in my mind that Scaredy will even include actual votes!

He does however visit threads on the forum. If we can keep it civil enough to tolerate reading we might be able to bring some genuine issues to light for both him and the playerbase at large. (which includes Admins and Coders; in a perfect world anyway) The concept of "how" these elections will be run isn't up for debate. Not by us anyway, so let's focus on the people involved.

MisterPerson wrote:Frankly I don't think it matters who we pick. All the candidates are running on a "the system works, why change it?" platform.

Legitimate point here, one I keep hearing; but again I'd love to hear suggestions as to who might be better for the position! Perhaps I'm over-weighing the actual propensity for change from this system at large, but if we could get these candidates to at least think about taking some sort of direction then we might see more real changes being attempted by them. Adminbus is pretty vanilla, or people are fairly afraid to speak up about controversial opinions. I'd like to see the end of that.

Helios127 wrote:Aside from Hornygranny, ALL OF THE HEADMIN CANDIATES ARE REALLY GOOD! I personally like Pandarsenic, but Anton is also a pretty sweet choice. Fortunetly theres really no need to worry about HG getting the position judging from the pre-polls. HG is a awful choice and everyone seems to know this now.

I think most people would be fairly surprised to find out what a standup guy HG is outside of the feedback threads where everyone is calling for his blood. I would personally rather have a hard-handed leader with some form of direction for the game and an iron shell than, say, those who intend to maintain the status-quot. This might be an unpopular opinion to have but he's easily one of the most qualified people on that list.

Fatal wrote:Would love to know the candidates opinions really (IE, stricter rules regarding greytiding)

Agreed; I've been facing some issues lately regarding people performing breakouts, attacking security and such for no real reason. It's no more endemic these days than in the past though. Fun fact that some folks might not know... Greytide is actually, in part, a host-protected right of the assistant. This is (as far as I can tell) because in the days when we were a smaller server they could be counted on not to do it for genuinely malicious reasons. It was a funny thing, a little blip that happened to bother Sec in the odd round. I think its evolved into something much darker though.

Finally, to briefly touch on the meta-clique issue as well, it is very real on Artyom. Less-so on Sybil but I can still promise you Mugen Lloris (sp?) gets what Mugen Lloris wants. (Just to use Dawn as a genuinely random example of a well known name) I understand you want to have a storyline, or that persistent character relationships are rewarding to build, but I've had to ban six people over the course of two rounds on Arty because of these "persistent relationships" literally being used as justification to break into the brig and murder the HoS to save their friends. I'll sum it up like this... I don't care how much you two have been through, if your best friend turns out to be a deadly syndicate agent, or guilty of a serious crime, I think you should be banned for saying "Oh, okay, I'll cover for your crimes/murders because we're friends." At least make an effort to justify it with this round's RP.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Mat13295 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:40 pm #17278

Subtle for headmin
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby miggles » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:47 pm #17280

an0n3 i have a question for you:
do you know what the hell you're talking about?
for how long have you been playing recently? didn't you quit like 5 different times?
you're acting like the server as it is now is worse than it was in sibyl 2 days.. because, what, people roleplay in a roleplaying game?
you really are trying to force your agenda on the "golden age of tg" arent you? what's the golden age? do you actually think you're battling a real phenomenon or do you just want the server to turn into your vision of a nostalgic tg?
you want to play on a server where people dont care about roleplay? play on a different server. don't even try to deny that roleplay exists because that's just ignorance to the max. maybe to YOU, YOUR character is just a name with a face, but you can't speak for everyone else with that statement. if you actually spent any significant amount of time on either server recently you would be able to easily notice how many characters have existing personalities that separate them from bald green eyed assistant default human #82974.
and that's not being a "special snowflake," its being a sociable fucking human being.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Brotemis » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:48 pm #17290

The golden age was when I was a trialmin.

Quit being so melodramatic, Miggles. Anon3 is completely right.

The "radical" idea of forcenaming even for a week would do the community a lot of good. Anyone remotely attempting to identify as who they actually are would be slapped with a metagaming ban. Think its too controversial or a bad idea or people will leave the server?


Good. Fuck them and fuck you. I would rather new blood in the server that has no idea what they're doing than a bunch of circle jerks. Pandarsenic's example is good.



I've personally seen other HOP's give full access to mimes WITHOUT ANY PRIOR CONVERSATIONS or people pulling each other in the halls, or just in general, act friendly to people and give anything to those they know but hostile to those they dont.

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:54 pm #17292

Was I in that round Pander was reffering to? The one where a Lawyer wordlessly ran into Sec and started taking Security gear, I arrest him, he starts screaming and then the HoP runs in and wordlessly stuns myself and another Officer before bailing with the Lawyer? We did arrest both of them a few minutes later.

To be honest, with the amount of HoP's that just hand out access like candy I can't tell if the person is just a "friend" of the HoP or just got lucky.

Aside from HoP's I have seen a few similar incidents on Sybil. For example a Chemist refused to give chems to a Botanist one round for no reason, another round the QM refused to order a legitimate crate for someone even when the Captain (Myself) ordered them to do so.
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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Fatal » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:58 pm #17293

The biggest problem I have so far on sybil, and I've not played so much recently, is not so much blatant attacking security for no reason at all, but, being extremely shitty, doing criminal things, and then getting people to use it as an excuse to riot and rebel against security

Good example was a recent round where I was AI, some of the details are bit iffy, but anyhow:

Captain gives security a free pass to execute any one guilty of that level of crime
Someone eventually gets executed, for being a shitler and breaking a window into permabrig and the security equipment room (both exposed to space)
Captain doesn't like it, claims security are not loyal to NT, and that the dead criminal was (and claims security is evil)
A few people take this an excuse to fight against security (despite not knowing the details) and promptly get killed by security also (deservedly)
HoP outs himself as a traitor to the Captain, parapens a sec officer who tries to arrest Captain and HoP, and kills a lawyer trying to help, and welds the sec officer into a locker
I get my core blown up
Aliens happen
Everyone dies

Maybe I'm just overly critical of things these days, but peoples attitudes in general are just poor and I would love to see much done about it (not easy, I know)

Forcing random name would be a good idea, if only for a week to see how it plays out

Some stricter rules in some areas would be nice to see perhaps also

(I remember that round with the HoP and lawyer, was shameful from both of them)

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Re: Public Headmin Discussion

Postby Miauw » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:10 pm #17297

have coders vote for headmins :^)

Jokes aside, I think admins should vote for headmins for the same reason why coders should vote for headcoders: the playerbase only sees a fraction of what they really do and who they are.

(also if you like :^) remember that hg popularized it as an alternative to :)))))))))))))))))) which was popularized by erro's passive-aggresive :)'s)
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