Public Headmin Discussion

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:23 am #17495

Bottom post of the previous page:

An0n3 wrote:Fatbeaver was/is an admin from ancient days of yore. I think he predates everyone on adminbus except for SoS and Deuryn at this point. It's kinda nostalgic to see him logging in again.

HerpA, XSI and I all predate him. Deuryn does not, if memory serves.

Post by **Higgin** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:36 am #17497

There is not a "more important" distinction to be made between fun and fun. People want to play a fun game. Unfair games aren't fun and neither are those that completely alienate characters and personalities, things found fun by a lot of the regulars and regulars-to-be that are some of our most well-retained players.

The distinction to be made is as to what yields the most fun; and forcing random-names, in the scope of the problem you've described as we see it from the ground level, does not yield the most fun. It alienates a lot of regular players whom you yourself like and whom others get to know and like as they themselves become more regular players on the server. These consistent and interesting people and characters bring people back in as they get to know one another, negating a good part of the argument about player flow as well if you look at Artyom.

The lines between what is bannable and not are host-protected rights and pretty much the meat of the game once you've figured out the mechanics and estranged yourself from a CoD-shallow dedication to hunting for redtext. If you push the lines down on what people can and do enjoy doing or having the ability to do, (without being a dick) you're limiting fun and hurting the game by alienating people and removing appealing things.

Dalta, Dante, Jarsh Mallow et. al. pushed the lines into bannable territory. They did things that greatly affected the rounds and negatively impacted players on the basis of metafriendship alone without regard for the round and reasonable developments like shitcurity. They got banned for it and people got along.

The preferential treatment you've described is not so bad because it's often regarding a positive thing that doesn't inhibit somebody from playing the game in a dickish fashion(as the rampages and security rape of the aforementioned often did,) metafriending is not as big of an issue as you've described (and there as many if not more accounts disagreeing with its problematic nature than agreeing,) so the incidence of this preferential treatment is reduced, it isn't something that negatively destroys a player's experience, it's circumventable easily, and there's a boon to depth in the community.

We continue to get new players, enough to keep Sibyl happy for sure; and a fun, good game experience is what is most important. All personal relationships and reputations are not entirely bad or detrimental because, for their part, they add a layer of depth for new players to enter into as they play the game more often and allow for us to actually have invested regulars; the community is not off-putting or biased towards people on the outside and the internal relationships, when not without the rules of fairness and non-dickery, are again an added layer of nuance to which persons can enter themselves for more fun overall.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:48 am #17500

It honestly just boils down to: "I don't know whats happen I have opinion! meta bad!" and "I hate those Artyom fucks arggh but I wont say it!"

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 6:58 am #17505

I really hate to say it, as I really like some of theese guys, but CERTAIN ADMINS are disillusioned when it comes to the problem of metafreinds.

That being there are none.

Oh dont get me wrong a long ass time ago there were, but they dissolved during the badger era.

Dalta, Dante, Jarsh Mallow et. al. pushed the lines into bannable territory... ...They got banned for it and people got along.

Incorrect.

Post by **Higgin** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:05 am #17508

Helios127 wrote:
Incorrect.

Screw me and my memory then. Pinky's still around afaik but I know Zaross is banned.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:20 am #17538

An0n3 wrote: Ultimately it's a question of what is more important:
Maintaining a flow of new players into our community by ensuring they're coming into a play environment that is fair and not biased towards popular players or against unknowns.
Keeping the players we have happy by allowing them to bring their personal relationships with eachother into the game proper.

Why can't we have both?

I mean, you're trying to make the point that bias towards knowns/friends is the same as bias against unknowns, right?

E: Should we take this to policy discussion?

Neerti/Pando/Bluespace for headmin

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:29 pm #17562

Subtle wrote:Paprika, for once in my life I'm completely lost on something nice to say. I'm going to do the most stupid* thing and respond directly.

Yes, in between the shit flinging which you all love so much I'm speaking up and as much as you might consider that an interruption, you should consider what I'm saying a little more clearly in the context of these votes before all of this shit means absolutely nothing when the popularity contest springs up again. I get it, you're trying to defend the most popular as equally qualified to be in the headmin role here, but that amounts to nothing when the election can just be run by people who know what they're voting for instead of a playerbase that comes and goes extremely fast.

All I see here is people trying to justify those leading in the current vote as qualified. They may be, but that doesn't change anything about the vote going on right now itself. Their qualifications do not matter to me because the vast majority of the playerbase hardly cares, and you can tell. I put myself in the shoes of the average voter that makes up the bulk of these polls because they're what decides headmins, not text in a forum thread. Look at this thread, look at the people talking here, nobody unfamiliar to you, or at least to me. The reason why is because it's only a select group of actual players like myself that take the time to invest in these inter-administration politics, out of hobby or out of passion for their hobby (the game), but we're not the majority of the vote and you have to realize that before trying to kick me out of an argument I don't even want to be apart of; it's an argument I want to prevent and replace with something more constructive.

Subtle wrote:The people whose opinion consists of nothing more than "fuck you" are being, and should be, disregarded.

Guess who that is? 90% of the playerbase, and 90% of the voters. You want them choosing headmins? Fine by me. It's not exclusive to this thread. Instead of disregarding those posters, take a minute to consider them a little more carefully in the context of the players. Maybe you'll realize how actually important this fucking is.

This is as polite as I'll ever be in the wake of one of the 'nicer' admins telling me to fuck off without reading my posts. I get it, an admin has to pander to the playerbase like HBL in order to secure a guaranteed headmin slot, and if that's what you want, and I'm killing that for you, I'm deeply sorry. But it's already been proven that's how it goes. Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed or blind.

You'll come to the conclusion that player votes are a bad idea one way or another. Address it or waste your time arguing about admin qualifications and justifying shit in the most pointless arguments ever.

Edit: Take a big hard look at page 4 of this thread, subtle. If you think what I'm trying to address is the thing ruining this thread you're legitimately just fucking stupid. I knew it would burst off into metagaming arguments. I knew it'd just be a big back and forth, topic-to-topic, until people lose their breath and this thread gets locked or abandoned. I'm trying to make something constructive on a topic that ALWAYS gets brought up while it's ALWAYS been an issue WITH HEADMINS and you're undermining it because I defended Brotemis. Mature as always.

Another thing we need to address is whether or not headmins should get remote again. You know, things that actually fucking matter and aren't pointless opinionated run-arounds that would serve better in policy discussion anyway.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:44 pm #17564

I am a big meanie and I agree with paprika.

Jesus christ people. You made the mistake once with the headmin elections. Then you do it again with community advocates. DO YOU REMEMBER NEXENDIA. Public votes are a joke and only good for weighing favor

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:31 pm #17573

I should probably address this from the last thread to ease subtle's mind too:

SubtleGraces wrote:Remember that part about "shouldn't be running at all" Paprika?

I was talking about the non-admin spacemanspark and errorage. Erro retired and submitted his application back when he wasn't retired. I'm not sure whether it was scaredy or someone else that said non-admins should apply but seriously, what?
Practically everyone taking it like a huge joke pretty much confirms it was a bad idea.

The list of candidates is outdated and extremely old. The applications don't reflect people's opinions on administrating 5 months later. A public vote would be a disaster. ALL of these things need to be addressed, because while I know you probably weren't at the IRC on sunday, scaredy seemed completely content to go forward with these candidates on a completely public vote. I don't know if you're just misinformed or ignorant.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:56 pm #17577

Apsis wrote:In short, are you gonna use sweeping generalizations like I've been seeing?
Neerti/Pendarsanic would also fall under this question too.

Elaborate?

Isane wrote:Back on topic, who the fuck is Fateweaver again?

Someone from over a year ago, whose behavior I am finding warrants perhaps a bump back to trialmin given his long absence.

Remind me of any questions I missed I guess.

Oh, and backstory is over. GG no re. No but seriously forcing random appearance and name is a stupid solution because people often have opinions about how their spaceman should look and random appearances tend to be p ugly.

A few other opinions I hold:

Players care more, in general, about their own experience than that of others
Admins care more, in general, about their own experience than that of others

Members of both groups should be watching for this behavior from themselves and others of both groups.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:57 pm #17579

paprika wrote:Guess who [the people whose opinion only consists of 'fuck you' is? 90% of the playerbase, and 90% of the voters.

Bullshit. Please provide proof that 90% of the playerbase is this terrible, instead of using it as a buzzword to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. If you really hold that much contempt for 90% of the playerbase, I'm surprised you can even stomach to play here. I'm sure you think you're naturally part of the 10%, too.

paprika wrote:All I see here is people trying to justify those leading in the current vote as qualified. They may be, but that doesn't change anything about the vote going on right now itself.

You can't have it both ways. Either players don't have a say in who runs for headmin, in which case then yes, they are pretty much limited in assessing the qualifications of the people who are running, or they do, in which case you probably shouldn't be throwing around accusations like "90% of the playerbase is shit."

This is as polite as I'll ever be in the wake of one of the 'nicer' admins telling me to fuck off without reading my posts. I get it, an admin has to pander to the playerbase like HBL in order to secure a guaranteed headmin slot, and if that's what you want, and I'm killing that for you, I'm deeply sorry. But it's already been proven that's how it goes. Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed or blind.

I don't really consider any of the leading candidates to be "pandering." If you want to throw that out, again, please provide proof. I mean, shit, if you want to talk about "pandering to the playerbase," look at how many people are writing Bluespace in for headmin. I don't have a problem with him personally, but he's both way too new to be headmin, and he has a history of making poor judgment calls about people's character, like almost promoting to admin-candidate a shitfuck who later got perma'd for multiple ban evasions.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:09 pm #17586

Honestly, if a CERTAIN ADMIN cannot even conduct themselves nicely, then CERTAIN ADMIN should just drop out.

The CERTAIN ADMIN knows who the CERTAIN ADMIN is.

Im not naming names because... uh.. hum..

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:18 pm #17589

Brotemis wrote:You mean to tell me that because you can't play your special snowflake and play with your special snowflake friends it's going to ruin your RP experience?

How horrifying, to be forced to give everyone a blank slate and a fresh start

No metagrudges. No metafriends. Final destination.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.
#2 is filled with terrible roleplayers.
And no, I don't mean in the way that they misspell everything and do stupid uncharacter like shit (some do) but I mean the fact that they're not -roleplaying-.
Their character is just a manifestation of themselves. A large majority of players in #2 have self inserts. And you can clearly, clearly see this through the fact they act exactly the same in OOC as they do IC. I gotta admit that heck even one of my character is a self insert and there's not much I can do to remedy that fact because he's well known, but I've been kinda pushing him out of the frontline and going with my other characters that aren't. That's completely dodging the point, the fact is, you remove peoples characters and you're not going to do much because they're going to act exactly the same. I bet you a lods of emone that if you force random one round and I, as an observer will be able to tell you the ckey of a player because of how he types and how he acts in game.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:54 pm #17597

bandit wrote:
paprika wrote:Guess who [the people whose opinion only consists of 'fuck you' is? 90% of the playerbase, and 90% of the voters.
Bullshit. Please provide proof that 90% of the playerbase is this terrible, instead of using it as a buzzword to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. If you really hold that much contempt for 90% of the playerbase, I'm surprised you can even stomach to play here. I'm sure you think you're naturally part of the 10%, too.

90% of the playerbase, okay, probably closer to 70%, doesn't regularly post in the forums or participate in the metacommunity we've got going on here.

bandit wrote:
paprika wrote:All I see here is people trying to justify those leading in the current vote as qualified. They may be, but that doesn't change anything about the vote going on right now itself.
You can't have it both ways. Either players don't have a say in who runs for headmin, in which case then yes, they are pretty much limited in assessing the qualifications of the people who are running, or they do, in which case you probably shouldn't be throwing around accusations like "90% of the playerbase is shit."

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have headmin selection and elections be completely within Adminbus. Log the initial candidates and the reasons they didn't make the cut for transparency's sake, then run the final list by the playerbase at large, see if anyone raises any grievous objections and if not, they're in and done. I know that you or I or Subtle or whomever is going to care enough to intelligently vote, but a majority of the players don't.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:07 pm #17628

How do people in this thread manage to keep drawing "defense of the popularity contest" and "justifying the people in the lead" when I've literally said in every one of my posts that public votes don't work, and shouldn't be used. That alongside presenting HG as a strong candidate with vision and experience to justify his being in the position. Yes, I understand you're very very upset about the last elections Paprika. I understand we're deeply at odds here, but likewise if I have to spend my time refuting the same point every time you post please at least meet me halfway.

Because nobody is asking for a public vote! I'm not pandering for the "forerunners", (again, the forerunners in a fake election) I'm asking them to justify their public support!

WHAT VOTE GOING ON "RIGHT NOW"? WHAT VOTERS? WHAT SUPPORT OF A PUBLIC VOTE? OF COURSE WE ALL AGREE WITH YOU.

The vote was a huge joke because it was fake. Let me say it one more time, nobody here wants or suggests to want, as far as I can tell, another blind player-vote only popularity contest. In fact most people in this thread don't appear to want players involved at all!

We're completely off the point and I'm angry as hell that I've got to spell out the same thing I've been saying letter-for-letter just to get some of you to read it. If your goal was to make an ass out of me congratulations; you win the "piss off Subtle" award. You've repeated yourself twenty times, and I've said "that's not what I'm saying" twenty times. At this point I just have to assume it's your goal to misinterpret and paint this thread for something its not.

All I ever wanted was for people to have a civil discussion about the merits of our potential headmin candidates. For folks involved to give actual reasons behind why they support the person they do and why they don't support the person they don't without all the hurt feelings. If arguing, AGAIN, about how we shouldn't have the public elections nobody, INCLUDING ME, wants to have will make you happy then be my guest.

EDIT: Less completely unwarranted insults and cursing.
Definitely need to take a chill pill, Jordie; for what it's worth you were entirely right. Hopefully we can still get something useful out of this thread.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:34 pm #17633

Paprika going on and on about

Paprika wrote:shit flinging

when this was so many times more civil before Paprika and Brotemis got here and started flipping tables. Seriously, this degraded in just the last page - maybe two.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:50 pm #17637

Pandarsenic wrote:
Apsis wrote:In short, are you gonna use sweeping generalizations like I've been seeing?
Neerti/Pendarsanic would also fall under this question too.
Elaborate?

Sweeping generalizations like "force random it's the only way even though I never go to this server!"

Artyom has: a different map, codebase, player count, and play style differences because of all this. One server's a grizzly bear, and the others a polar bear at this point. I want headmins who can understand this. Tell admins who don't even go to Artyom to not butt in.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:38 pm #17661

Subtle wrote:Stuff

Wait wait wait. So basically Paprika and a few others started crying so hard about a playerbase vote, that they actually managed to convince themselves and others that there actually was a playerbase vote going on, despite there not being one?

Like, those wall of texts Paprika typed up, complaining about "this current vote" and such, are all basically moot, and complaining for the sake of complaining?

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:45 pm #17662

Wanna make a quick POLITICAL STATEMENT.
I am not interested in running for headmin or any sort of position apart from GameAdmin for the foreseeable future.
I fill a niche as a funmin who likes to run questionable gimmicks, get everyone involved and be a bit whacky, so everyone has a fun time.
My time during admintrainer rank left me feeling like I wasn't able to make confident decisions regarding people's future prospects as an admin. I feel, personally, I'm in the best place to make the server better where I am.
Don't want to come off sounding like "I get you all want me but no.", it's just I want people saying bluespace for headmin to realise there are candidates 10x better than me.
Lastly, a fun question we should ask then all; "If you're made headmin, what changes can admins expect to see? Furthermore, what changes will players see?".
Enjoy your evening all.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:51 pm #17663

Tomorrow, starting at 5 PM, Eastern Standard, myself along with Neerti will be on teamspeak to answer any questions in person that you may have in regards to really anything. It'll probably last about an hour, and we'll try and answer all the questions and concerns you may have. If any other headmin candidate would like to participate, feel free to PM me, or just come by. I'll be answering other questions posted, and PMed through the rest of the day.

ministation13.no-ip.org is the address.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:23 pm #17682

That sounds excellent, thanks for creating the opportunity you guys.

Hope we'll see that platform being used for some productive discourse.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:31 pm #17683

Not all of us will be able to participate in the teamspeak discussion. Will there be a recording?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:53 am #17705

Isane wrote:Wait wait wait. So basically Paprika and a few others started crying so hard about a playerbase vote, that they actually managed to convince themselves and others that there actually was a playerbase vote going on, despite there not being one?

Like, those wall of texts Paprika typed up, complaining about "this current vote" and such, are all basically moot, and complaining for the sake of complaining?

Nah, everyone here is deluded or uninformed.

I said it once and I'll say it again.

Scaredy quite literally said he was going to run a public, PLAYER BASE VOTE on the community meeting last sunday.

I even told you this was the case.

Yet you're saying this is not an issue and I'm making it up.

Jesus christ. Ask anyone that was there in the IRC and they'll tell you that's what Scaredy was planning on. The same thing as last year.

I'm actually getting tired of this amount of stupidity.

YES, the current player poll on the server wasn't scaredy's idea, someone else threw that up or something.

YES, scaredy STILL PLANS on doing a playerbase vote. He even said he was going to ask for players to send him votes via AHELP.

READ THE IRC LOGS. STAY INFORMED. STOP MAKING YOURSELVES LOOK LIKE JACKASSES AND HAVING ME WASTE MY TIME.

bandit wrote:Bullshit. Please provide proof that 90% of the playerbase is this terrible, instead of using it as a buzzword to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. If you really hold that much contempt for 90% of the playerbase, I'm surprised you can even stomach to play here. I'm sure you think you're naturally part of the 10%, too.

BUT I AM PART OF THAT 10%. I'M HERE, SO ARE YOU. THE LARGE PART OF THE PLAYER BASE IS NOT AND THEY'RE JUST ON THE SERVER TO PLAY THE GAME. This is just how it is, denying that makes -you- look like a fucking asshole.

The problem with that lies in the fact that these same people who rarely go to the forums outside of FNR are going to be the ones voting in the player poll too. They're uninformed and are just going to vote for who they like the best. Why they like them is completely irrelevant 90% of the time because they're not involved in admin politics, this thread, or anything like that. They will literally just not vote for someone because they handled a ban wrong or something once. That's not who we want picking a few people that will handle admin-based decisions that won't really necessarily impact the playerbase in a HUGE HUGE way anyway.

I DON'T hold the playerbase in any sort of contempt. That's where you're wrong. I'm saying that they lack the knowledge to make an informed vote in this case and that's not calling them dumb or stupid, I'm saying that it's a wasted vote and you know it. The people who are informed will be VASTLY overshadowed by these people. Maybe it's not huge, maybe we don't have a 10,000 pop player base, but it's significant enough to shit up the poll and ruin the headmin process entirely.

Nobody will respect headmins that aren't chosen fairly, by people who are informed. Even if erro was chosen by the adminbus legitimately I would have literally no choice but to take him seriously. If admins want erro leading them and making decisions or whoever the fuck, that's what they want and there's obviously a reason for that. This is hypothetical of course, but that's why it matters for admins to choose the headmins and not players. Not only will the headmin elections be more signficant and the votes hold a TON more weight, but it'll help boost the headmins to know that the other ADMINS wanted them there.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:16 am #17711

Righto, my mistake then. So basically everyone is getting mad as hell over video games. Go yell at Scaredy then about not having any sort of vote maybe instead of doing it in this thread?

Anyway, let's drop this shit about votes, how the vote is going to be done, forcing random names on, etc. And actually talk about the candidates. Seriously, the candidates, lets discuss them please.

Can we just have Antonkr, Pandar, and Neerti as headmins and call it a day? Between them they know the game, know how to see things like a player, know the code, and aren't huge jerks and are quite level headed in all my dealings with them. Maybe Ikkarus too, though I haven't seen enough to form an opinion of him. Deuryn spent most of his time as headmin not even around, HG is an abrasive jerk, Elyina I believe abused their admin powers to ban evade in the past, and who the fuck is Fateweaver again?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:29 am #17714

Anton is AWOL but once he gets back he's already really excited about wanting to be involved here.

I don't really care what any of these candidates have done in the past. Sure, it shows initiative for change and that they're willing to do it (pandar really convinced me about silicon hulk human policy needing to be a thing that was written down) but it doesn't matter if they're not going to make positive changes for the administration and be at least semi-neutral when it comes down to making harder decisions, which there will be a lot of.

Anton, neerti, and pandar all like each other. They've all been on both servers. They're willing to cooperate even if they disagree.

Tomorrow I'm going to ask what they're willing to bring to the table. I really, really want some harder decisions towards administrating etiquette to be made with actual consequences. If all the admins sort of operated under the same standards (which they sort of do right now) to a larger extent, they'd ALL be accountable for change and contribute positively towards making those changes if the current operating procedure shows serious fault with not only their effectiveness in banning shitlords but actually being received positively by players. NOBODY wants people to dicksuck and get yelled at if they don't follow a script when responding to ahelps like indian tech support people, but there needs to be something to fall back on if the admin in question is tired or can't be fucked or biased towards a player or what have you. There needs to be a common procedure that's a lot more cemented than what currently happens and that's what I want to see the admins decide on first and foremost. I don't want 'do this or get deadminned' .pdfs but it'd be kind of nice if ahelping wasn't a mixed bag I guess. I don't know, this is my speculation on how administrating goes because it seems kind of like everyone has their own way of doing it which might work for them but it's detrimental the more I see it conflict with actual ahelps. I'm not speaking from any personal experience with ahelps but I've certainly seen it in FNR.

Maybe instead of running individually headmins should run as a group of three. Like a political party.

We politics now!

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:37 am #17717

If you have a problem with uninformed voters, let me introduce you to something called literally every political process involving votes in the world. The problem is that the alternatives aren't any better and are often worse. (Insert US-based bitching about half the the Supreme Court being appointed by Republicans which is fucking up everything.) Admins can be uninformed too -- Neerti mentioning that half the admins don't know there are multiple metafriend gangs is a great example. Or I hate to keep picking on Bluespace, especially since he's on vacation, but the Dawn of Man thing is an excellent example of a case where player input could have headed off something bad before the admin(s) went ahead with it anyway. Admins are also just as guilty of voting based on factionalism or politics or who trialminned them or who they think is most likely to do them a solid in the future as players were. They don't magically become different people once they become admins and not "the playerbase."

Also: Is there a reason we have to have three trialmins? Anton, Ikarrus, Neerti and Pandarsenic are all qualified as far as I'm concerned (I was less sure about Neerti but his posts here are solid).

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:40 am #17719

I'm not insisting anyone is making Scaredy's plans up. As I said in the start of this thread, the form they'll take isn't really up for debate by us and most people's opinions have been made clear regarding how public votes aren't a good thing. There's no vote running right this second. The opening post states this was about the candidates rather than the form because I feel SoS has the end say in that. Please don't confuse a lack of desire to discuss it, off topic for the thread, with delusion or some kind of support for the flawed process. Try as I might to prevent last thread's discussion from bleeding into this one...

Praying the teamspeak tomorrow salvages some worth from asking candidates questions as it's unlikely we'll hear much more from them here.

Glad we're finally on-topic, at least.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:48 am #17721

What do metafriend gangs on a server some admins never touch have to do with them choosing headmins again? If I was a primarily sybil-based admin I'd think the same thing about artyom or server 2, there's plenty of evidence for that to be the case even if it's wrong. 'The roaming metafriend gang clique that gives each other all access'. But it has nothing to do with admins choosing headmins, it's a very minor issue in the grand scheme of administration even if it is an issue that will pop up and need to be addressed down the line.

Subtle wrote:As I said in the start of this thread, the form they'll take isn't really up for debate by us and most people's opinions have been made clear regarding how public votes aren't a good thing.

The form the headmin votes will take is totally up to discussion by us. This is what I'm trying to get across here. Stop thinking scaredy is some benevolent being who wants things this way or that. He wants to know what you have to think. If you have a better idea, he wants to hear it. But he's a busy man, so I understand why you get that impression, but the evidence for him wanting people's feedback on these processes is right in front of you. It's always been there. Nobody but me has taken the time to speak up and that's a fucking shame. You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them, but then I see posts from people saying player votes are the best way to go about it and there's no better alternative. This is why I'm upset, not only because you're deciding to once again discuss meta gangs on artyom and shit people generally don't even know what they're talking about.

This is why I've been a big asshole about it. If people don't speak the fuck up and express their desire for change, it won't happen. It didn't happen before, even though people I personally respected didn't want public votes either. It's not that you might support the player votes, it's that you're apathetic and willing to let other shit take precedence when things like this really need to be discussed and agreed upon before candidates are talked about. It'd be nice if it was agreed upon that we have a new system for voting so those admins that usually tune this shit out can snap back into reality and realize their vote will actually matter this time and they don't have to just sit there and be like 'oh well new headmins what else is new'

Post by **oranges** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:55 am #17732

If I recall correctly Scaredy never said the poll would decide the headmins, merely that he is running one.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:28 am #17736

paprika wrote:You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them

I'm still waiting for proof about how literally anything about the player's vote caused HBL and Intigracy to stop talking to each other and Deuryn to fuck off. (I don't actually have a problem with any of them, I'm just being blunt.)

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:35 am #17737

oranges wrote:If I recall correctly Scaredy never said the poll would decide the headmins, merely that he is running one.

I asked 'how will headmins be decided' and he responded 'i will run a public poll'

bandit wrote:
paprika wrote:You say everyone knows how bad the elections were and how detrimental they were to how headmins operated following them
I'm still waiting for proof about how literally anything about the player's vote caused HBL and Intigracy to stop talking to each other and Deuryn to fuck off. (I don't actually have a problem with any of them, I'm just being blunt.)

I don't even pretend to know what the thought process of admins in the bus were at the time but I hardly think there was roaring support for HBL, a newcomer admin who really only won because of extreme (deserved) popularity among the players.
As for intig and deuryn, I can't really comment there. Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:05 am #17743

I don't even pretend to know what the thought process of admins in the bus were at the time but I hardly think there was roaring support for HBL, a newcomer admin who really only won because of extreme (deserved) popularity among the players.
As for intig and deuryn, I can't really comment there. Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

No, they're to blame if they ended up shitting the bed. There's no real way to tell how any given three players will interact in positions of power without actually putting them there, so blaming the election is stupid. The players did not force them to do anything by the act of electing them. Are you seriously putting all the blame for admins' actions on the playerbase?

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:20 am #17744

paprika wrote:Them being headmins was the result of a playerbase poll, so that's what to blame if they ended up shitting the bed.

Yeah, not sure at all how you're blaming the players for Intigracy and HBL deciding to be assholes to each other, and Deuryn to not even be around most of the time.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:15 am #17747

You people voted in someone who literally said it was a mad grab for power. They just wanted the power. Or how they shouldn't let "sybil boss them around any more." With the whole badger stronk bullshit. And they promised wild things to those that voted for him like pulse guns and shit. Literally bribing players.

And you people fucking fear getting bwoinked from me a "Big meanie authoritarian admin who always take the admins side" when someone like me wants nothing to do with the headmin position.

Also, daily reminder you people almost voted nexendia in as a community advocate.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:38 am #17752

Brotemis makes an excellent point for why the player's input should be a greenlight or a stamp of approval and nothing more.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:01 am #17753

Nexendia had to have rigged the poll actually because outside of mass-joke polling he was universally hated on server 2

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:43 am #17772

No offense but Neerti doesn't really know the code. He's a decent coder and probably has the potential (I don't get to decide those things though, just a personal opinion) to become a tg maintainer if he wants to and tries, but he's far from there yet. (Also, he mostly codes for nt which sort of reduced his maintainership chances :V)

HG isn't really an abrasive jerk either. He's done many controversial things, but most of his being an abrasive jerk was jokingly AFAIK. He does want to change shit and would, imho, make a fairly good leader. Unless all the admins hate him or something, I have no idea of the intra-adminbus politics.

420goslingboy69 · Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:55 am

no fucking shit the community is stupid. on the "try out a new lawset on artyom" poll, like 33% of the votes went to the bay lawset. fuck thats dumb

captain sawrge · Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Brotemis wrote:Also, daily reminder you people almost voted nexendia in as a community advocate.

Daily reminder Skorvold was almost deadminned during his trialmin vote specifically for saying not-nice things to certain admins in admin feedback threads.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:26 pm #17836

And that's why other admins didn't call out the people mentioned in his feedback for their bullshit as well.

Oh wait. They did. Beside the point, what you're tryjng n to point out has literally no bearing on headmin elections

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:28 pm #17837

Daily reminder that "daily reminders" are a meaningless trope and the epitome of shitposting.

Miauw wrote:No offense but Neerti doesn't really know the code. He's a decent coder and probably has the potential (I don't get to decide those things though, just a personal opinion) to become a tg maintainer if he wants to and tries, but he's far from there yet. (Also, he mostly codes for nt which sort of reduced his maintainership chances :V)

Glad to hear from someone with a code-oriented viewpoint. At the same time though if code-knowledge is one of your requirements there aren't many candidates to choose from. As you said Neerti is making a genuine effort to understand the game from that perspective and I feel it's a positive, almost necessary, quality for a Headmin to have. Especially considering the historic precedent for unnecessary drama between Admins/Coders.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:33 pm #17840

Hornygranny and Ikarrus are both established coders who know what they're doing. Which is important because some code dictates policy stances. (See IED'S and their subsequent change because of how they were being used)

ColonicAcid · Post by **ColonicAcid** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:09 pm #17847

Subtle wrote:Daily reminder that "daily reminders" are a meaningless trope and the epitome of shitposting.

But sawrge has a good point.
The fact that the majority of people don't know about the blatant misuse of authority to get rid of someone because he said meaningful constructive criticism is absolutely atrocious.
Just because it's hurtful doesn't mean it's not true.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:13 pm #17850

Clearly the only solution is to nuke the community from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:18 pm #17852

Just have SoS pick three people then. Why even argue about it?

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:22 pm #17853

Yeah well you guys are terrible. You cannot even pick a way to pick a headmin.

Why don't we pick a way to pick a way to pick a headmin. What about a public vote?

Oh and next time add "Not interested" option in a public vote.

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:25 pm #17854

ColonicAcid wrote:But sawrge has a good point.
The fact that the majority of people don't know about the blatant misuse of authority to get rid of someone because he said meaningful constructive criticism is absolutely atrocious.
Just because it's hurtful doesn't mean it's not true.

He and everyone else can have good points all day, I'm not arguing that it's invalid. Phrasing it like that just serves to drag down our discussion. (again)

Apsis wrote:Just have SoS pick three people then. Why even argue about it?

Headmins in some form will happen either way.
If there's no public election, well, this thread serves as a ground for debate. If there is? It's worth discussing merits.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:02 pm #17864

Myself neerti panda and ikky are on teamspeak3 at ministation13.no-ip.org to answer any questions you may have.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:17 pm #17877

The Q&A has ended, thank you to everyone who attended.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:12 am #17891

Thanks for coming, those who did.

I hope you all found it productive and perhaps even enjoyable.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:27 am #17898

Could we get a summary for those who missed it?