Sprite changes/Perspective

[captain sawrge]

Bottom post of the previous page:

tl;dr Sprites are iconic and beloved by the community, don't tear them out because you think the alternative is better.

no. lol!

[Qbopper]

I think you're misunderstanding what position I was arguing against. Which is my fault for making an overly broad statement but whatever.

There are two positions I find ridiculous. The first, the one that really bothers me the most and the reason I spoke up in the first place, was the one made by NikNak in the OP where he specifically says the new sprite is better but wants the old shittier one because of nostalgia. This argument is retarded at its base and obviously should be discarded. The second stupid argument is the one we're talking about right now, the empty complaint. Most complainers, no matter where they're complaining, are by definition a vocal minority. I would absolutely love to help the complainers because even a vocal minority of one is still one real person whose seriously pissed off. However, since they didn't specify what the problem was and not accepting the sprite is unacceptable since the new sprite would probably be liked by the silent majority, there's absolutely nothing that can be done to resolve the complaint.

Obviously that argument doesn't apply if the majority would not like the new sprite. This turns out to be very hard to prove in practice. For example the current crop of complaining may very well be a silent majority of dislike, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And before you point to that poll, no, the forums are not a representative sample of players. Of course it's some good solid evidence there's a very sizable group of people who dislike the new sprites, which is why I gave a friendly tip that they'll make a stronger case if they explain what the problem is clearly. And I want to stress the problem can be extremely subjective. Hate all 3/4ths? That's fine. Don't like how dark the new toolboxes are? Great! Do they just look too wide/flat/tall/short/skinny? Those are all resolvable problems, and yes, sometimes that resolution does in fact include reversion. But without knowing what the problem is, it sounds an awful lot like that "all change is bad" complaining NikNak made that nobody gives a fuck about.

I'm much more sympathetic to this position as stated and your concerns. However, I do find some space for the "nostalgia" position as, to a degree, SS13 has never really been about pretty graphics to many players. Its always been "a bad game that we play anyway" and many are drawn to it for that aspect. Its a design conundrum because making "improvements" runs counter to that desire. There's nothing really stupid about that desire. Its just different priorities. As the OP says, that silly old sprite is semi-iconic in its own way and holds cultural/emotional value for some players. There's nothing wrong with that.

As you mention, there are many who post on the forums and either don't/can't/don't bother with the game as something they actually play but feel motivated to chime in about it on the forums. Those can be rightfully dismissed, but I fear that given recent overtones in the conversation, legitimate players with complaints or general aesthetic dislike for changes are getting the "baby with the bathwater" treatment. Additionally, I'm not sure we're meeting eye to eye on this sub-issue. The presumption being presented is that changes are presumed good until proven so unsalvageable as to require reversion. Why should the presumption not be against inclusion in the first place until the change is determined to be desirable? I mean, if we're going to compare the sample sizes for feedback groups, a forum poll is certainly larger and more diverse than a github PR feed. The usual response is "anyone can access git/coderbus" but not everyone with a stake in the game should need to idle a coder channel just to keep an eye out for changes they don't like. That's just really backwards to me.

To subjectivity, a lot of why many complaints don't turn into specific feedback that results in "fixes" is because some complaints simply don't have accurate or complete ways to articulate themselves. That's part of what makes them subjective. For example, taken as a whole, I just don't like the new boxes as compared to the shape and style of the others. If pressed I suppose I could really dig into it and name off some specific minor gripes about color or shape or style, but none of them really articulate how I think or feel about the design as a whole. I imagine this is similar for many others. Where there lacks proper terms of specific gripes but overall the whole package just doesn't feel right, they explain it in the simplest way they can. "This sucks, I don't like it. Revert." Obviously that's not really helpful if the goal from the start is to keep the changed sprite in and just go through the "fix" ritual for an undetermined amount of time before allowing reversion.

extremely well put

I wish I was this articulate

[oranges]

<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

[John_Oxford]

<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

don't worry citrusfag your the first one im deporting when i become headmin.

[onleavedontatme]

Headmins have zero control over who is a maintainer.

[PKPenguin321]

<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

Thanks hg

[Luke Cox]

I'm interested in the new perspective, but I do agree that the console sprites look kind of shitty.

[oranges]

<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

don't worry citrusfag your the first one im deporting when i become headmin.

what are you gonna do? ban me?

lol

[Remie Richards]

He's not wrong.

vote 4 me and ill throw everything hg has done and worked for towards absolute seperation away within the first 100 days

(i need someone to replace sawfag, he probally wasen't voting for me anyways he's kind of a low energy degenerate)

All you'll do is end up without a codebase, plus you're not going to win anyway, you're the closest thing to a joke candidate allowed to run this time.

[Haevacht]

Headmins have zero control over who is a maintainer.

This. Oxford get your head of out your authority loving ass.

You have no power over the codebase now, and you will continue to have none if we're in the second darkest timeline where you win.

Regarding sprite changes any actionable criticism like the boxes look to thick or that sketch (how is that a sketch you fucking artist) I'm sure is appreciated by the spriters actually working on it.

[ShadowDimentio]

If the coders continue acting like they're the self-anointed gods of the game whose will is law then I absolutely wouldn't be opposed to a purge via holy fire and I'd hope the headmins this time around are with me on this.

[cedarbridge]

All you'll do is end up without a codebase

>its this threat again

[onleavedontatme]

The only way to "purge" oranges is to

A) Be as knowledgeable as him

B) Put in as much work as him

And nobody here complaining about toolboxes is going to do either of those things

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm ready and able to do both of those things.

Except code. I can't code. Everything else though.

[onleavedontatme]

I guess you've failed the knowledge requirement then.

[ShadowDimentio]

I wanted to learn but then you ruined it. #BlameKor

[onleavedontatme]

If suffering a single setback made you quit you've failed the hard work requirement as well.

[Remie Richards]

All you'll do is end up without a codebase

>its this threat again

It's less a threat and more a statement of what will happen if he does that (which he can't)
There's nothing ominous behind it.

[ShadowDimentio]

There will always be coders, Remie. The current coder regime getting thrown out wouldn't deter people from wanting to improve the game.

Worst case scenario there are fewer of them, and thus less need to maintain the game because there are fewer changes. Hardly any real loss.

[TrustyGun]

The only thing the spriters want is valid criticism. Wanting the old one back because of nostalgia is NOT valid. If we were to judge new content on the basis of nostalgia, Lavaland won't be a thing, every game mode other than extended won't exist, the game in general would look like shit, and our performance would suck ass

Now the post that had the sketch? That's something they can act on. Tell how to bring their work closer to the way you and others feel like it. Then progress can be made.

[ShadowDimentio]

I sincerely doubt that people preferred the asteroid to lavaland 2-1 at any point ever, and the same goes for all the gamemodes developed over the years.

And the important difference is that these are sprites we're talking about, there's nothing objective about them it's 100% opinion, and the stats say 2-1 want the old sprites back.

[danno]

I'm ready and able to do both of those things.

Except code. I can't code. Everything else though.

how are you this delusional lmao

day of the NT when

[Remie Richards]

There will always be coders, Remie. The current coder regime getting thrown out wouldn't deter people from wanting to improve the game.

Worst case scenario there are fewer of them, and thus less need to maintain the game because there are fewer changes. Hardly any real loss.

Let's see:
Less coders = Less Changes + Less Features + Less Fixes = Less Players
Or perhaps:
Purge all coders = Influx of terrible coders (Due to not standards) + More features (potentially) + More bugs + More instability = No Game

I really don't get your (and other's) immense hatred for us, we genuinely try out best for our (/tg/) version of the game, of course you're not going to like ALL of the changes, that's impossible.
The holier-than-thou attitude is just a bit of fun (notice how we only really pull it out in situations like this, where things are already ludicrous), We don't rub our hands together, roll a and say "Aha, a 3! that means we arbitrarily change the art! Mwahahaha!", though of course new players come in and assume it's for real because they don't personally *know* us like others do

[ShadowDimentio]

It's less I hate coders, with the two exceptions of HG and Papsmear who both unironically thought they ran the fucking game, I just hate trying to give feedback and it being ignored. I've campaigned for years for all manner of things and ideas and I don't think a single thing has been ever acted on, with the one exception of Xhuis listening. It's frustrating.

[danno]

HG and paprika have made more positive changes to the game than you ever will
This is quantifiable fact.
We can measure this. We can pit you against probably any coder you might hate and they will come out on top.

[TrustyGun]

I sincerely doubt that people preferred the asteroid to lavaland 2-1 at any point ever, and the same goes for all the gamemodes developed over the years.

And the important difference is that these are sprites we're talking about, there's nothing objective about them it's 100% opinion, and the stats say 2-1 want the old sprites back.

Really? When Lavaland was first implemented a good chunk of people wanted asteroid back, maybe not 1/3rd but not just one person either.

Also, it's a fourm poll that you cite as the 2-1 difference. If a player poll was ran, I'm sure the difference would be closer or different. Most players don't frequent the forums or git. In fact, I can wager that the majority don't care about the toolbox sprites.

[ShadowDimentio]

Nobody used to ever play miner. If you were doing R&D you'd have to go mining yourself once you hit the materials wall, nowadays you're lucky to get a miner jb even on midpop. Lavaland, as far as I can recall, has always been extremely well-received by effectively everyone.

[cedarbridge]

HG and paprika have made more positive changes to the game than you ever will
This is quantifiable fact.
We can measure this. We can pit you against probably any coder you might hate and they will come out on top.

And yet both have generally shown to be awful people to deal with. How does their contributions to the codebase change that?

[Thunder11]

3/4th perspective really does look pretty bad for anything with any sort of curved front. I tried redoing rechargers in it and all I ever ended up with is a box:

[oranges]

It's less I hate coders, with the two exceptions of HG and Papsmear who both unironically thought they ran the fucking game, I just hate trying to give feedback and it being ignored. I've campaigned for years for all manner of things and ideas and I don't think a single thing has been ever acted on, with the one exception of Xhuis listening. It's frustrating.

Have you ever considered that maybe you just have opinions that don't match anyone else

[Qbopper]

As much as I love to shit on shadow this thread has gone WILDLY off topic

On the topic of the sprites: I think it's important to be able to look at things critically, and voice things you dislike about something specifically (as stated before, eg. "I dislike the shading" or "it's got a strange shape", concrete definable issues), but I also think that it's not cool to disregard nostalgia/what people see as iconic

I think I would personally be a bigger fan of the toolbox resprite if they were closer in shape to the old sprite - the new one, though not objectively awful looking, just doesn't have the same feel IMO

I think there's people on both extremes here - some people are in the "fuck any and all changes, coderbus is satan's domain" and some are in the "you don't like [new thing]? you must be in camp 1 then you fucking stupid dumb idiot"

What I'm trying to say here is that believe it or not there can be a compromise between brand new stuff and the old things, and then EVERYONE will be unhappy (the ideal scenario)

[DemonFiren]

some people are in the "fuck any and all changes, coderbus is satan's domain"

i mean they're not wrong
coderbus IS satan's domain
just sometimes fun stuff comes out of there

[Incoming]

Anything that's cube shaped (as in H ~= W ~= D) looks terrible in "the new style".

Anything that's not cube shaped is significantly harder to sprite in "the new style".

I mean it really feels lose-lose here.

[imblyings]

3/4th perspective really does look pretty bad for anything with any sort of curved front. I tried redoing rechargers in it and all I ever ended up with is a box:

why is this dumb thunder cat facing it forwards

(add directionals, make it an east/west thing, cheat a bit come on)

[NikNakFlak]

It'll look like one of those hand sanatizer dispensers on the wall except it dispenses energy instead of antigerm gooey stuff

[Arianya]

There will always be coders, Remie. The current coder regime getting thrown out wouldn't deter people from wanting to improve the game.

Worst case scenario there are fewer of them, and thus less need to maintain the game because there are fewer changes. Hardly any real loss.

Please never actually be in charge of managing anything.

I'm not crazy about 3/4ths as a new standard personally, mostly because the use of mixed perspectives as it currently exists was done because not all objects are going to work well in a certain perspective.

[PKPenguin321]

I don't think people are really arguing "don't change them ever" so much as "don't change them to that"

For instance, the sprites under the spoiler in Niknak's post? The computer consoles?
Here's a shitty sketch of what I see in the old sprites versus what I see in the new, shifted to a more isometric perspective:


I won't deny the shading is nicer, but they simply don't look like what they're supposed to be.

Quoting again because this post is really good

[Qbopper]

I don't think people are really arguing "don't change them ever" so much as "don't change them to that"

For instance, the sprites under the spoiler in Niknak's post? The computer consoles?
Here's a shitty sketch of what I see in the old sprites versus what I see in the new, shifted to a more isometric perspective:


I won't deny the shading is nicer, but they simply don't look like what they're supposed to be.

Quoting again because this post is really good

[captain sawrge]

Thanx for the quote chain circlejerk about a dead PR. Big thumbs up, gang!

[DemonFiren]

Thanx for the quote chain circlejerk about a dead PR. Big thumbs up, gang!

[NikNakFlak]

There's a new PR with perspective changes to the 3/4 though so please stop using that argument sawrge.
Noting, they don't look quite as bad as the picture I linked in the original post and the perspective kinda works for this case because its vending machines, but that doesn't take away from the argument that there is still a general push to 3/4 regardless if an active PR is up or not (which as of this post, there is that vending machine one)

[MMMiracles]

3/4th perspective looks okay in only items, everything else just looks off if it isn't hugging a north wall.

Spoiler:

Like here, the vendors visually make sense in their perspective, no problems here.

Spoiler:

Situations like this, however, just seem off to me. They look like someone installed them in the wrong direction and didn't bother to rotate them around.

Directional sprites would solve this issue but that probably adds in a lot more work than people are intending for this shift in perspective to take. I might just be being weird about it but that's how I see most of these shifts working out.

[captain sawrge]

3/4th perspective looks okay in only items, everything else just looks off if it isn't hugging a north wall.

Spoiler:

Like here, the vendors visually make sense in their perspective, no problems here.

Spoiler:

Situations like this, however, just seem off to me. They look like someone installed them in the wrong direction and didn't bother to rotate them around.

Directional sprites would solve this issue but that probably adds in a lot more work than people are intending for this shift in perspective to take. I might just be being weird about it but that's how I see most of these shifts working out.

It's kind of the same thing with the old sprites though.
The main issue with directional sprites is that they're way less visually interesting. It'd basically just be a little coloured rectangle for most machines.

[Owegno]

I'm curious, whats wrong with the old perspective that makes it so we need a new one?

[Incoming]

Valid arguments against forced 3/4ths perspective (a work in progress)

1. It's terrible at showing depth. All you get is that wacky area at the top of the sprite. There's no context for thickness over the length of the sprite, meaning it only works on things that have a consistent thickness over the entire body of the sprite. Anything else is robbed of information.

2. It's more important to show what a sprite looks like in three dimensional space than how it might logically look from a specific viewpoint. SS13 is always going to be graphically lacking so letting people properly imagine what scenes playing out in game might look like is important. Knowing how something looks because you played before the sprite was changed is not a proper excuse.

3. There actually already is a fairly well established ruleset for how machines/structures look, it's a slightly offset isometric perspective pointing southwest to northeast. The diagonal showcases depth and gives a stronger impression of how things might actually look, the orientation being left up to the player.

4. Some of the PRs that added these sprites were written to be intentionally inflammatory, and I'm still not entirely sure this isn't just an extremely high effort shitpost.

5. The old style of sprites is direction agnostic, but 3/4ths sprites only really work well when they're "facing" south.

6. Creating 3/4th item sprites makes them blend into 3/4th machinery and structures. A rough shorthand currently is that if an item is shown face on, it's something you can pick up, and if it's show at the iso angle common to structures/machinery it's something you can interact with. This isn't true 100% of the time, but it's fairly consistent.

7. Creating 3/4 sprites are intrinsically trickier than allowing a more relaxed standard. This is a game that has trouble finding people to make sprites, we can't really afford to add a big barrier to entry. Not everyone is gonna know how to project a light source or understand how to angle things. Either less people will sprite or the people that do sprite might do a poorer job of it.

8. You cannot enforce a standard for sprites unless you commit to never leaving. I don't want that for you .

9. Creating a unique visual style means we can never port sprites from any other codebase (except maybe the goon leak) ever again.

10. Creating a unique visual style puts us at odds with every other codebase except goon. People like familiarity, goon is a dying server, we want to be a part of that?

11. I don't like it, your opinions are wrong >:((((((

12. You are expending a huge amount of effort to shit on a lot of previous effort for reasons even more subjective than these.

[WJohnston]

3/4th perspective looks okay in only items, everything else just looks off if it isn't hugging a north wall.

Spoiler:

Like here, the vendors visually make sense in their perspective, no problems here.

Spoiler:

Situations like this, however, just seem off to me. They look like someone installed them in the wrong direction and didn't bother to rotate them around.

Directional sprites would solve this issue but that probably adds in a lot more work than people are intending for this shift in perspective to take. I might just be being weird about it but that's how I see most of these shifts working out.

To be honest showing some current vending machines being up against walls might show off that it's an issue with the current ones as well. Maybe even against a specific left or right wall too.

I just wish they weren't squares.

These have nothing to do with 3/4th style.

The first argument is about these sprites not making sense if not aligned up to walls due to directionals. The old sprites have literally the exact. same. problem.

The second argument is about the shape of the sprites, which, need I remind you, were squares in the past, too. you just got to see a very shitty top and a very shitty side, barely giving it any depth and making the whole thing look extremely thin.

If you want them to have more rounded fronts, that's something we can do, and is a valid complaint.

These two complaints are not at odds with 3/4th at all, merely the quality of the individual sprites.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Hi

[oranges]

[Incoming]

What we have that works - What we're getting that doesn't - What can be done with effort and attention to detail

Most things aren't making it to that third tier so far.

[confused rock]

I dunno I took it more as "how easy it is to turn that shitty sprite from if you just make it 3/4ths to a fucking great sprite if you just make the 3/4ths one look less like shit"

[Incoming]

I mean the problem of "a standard" is it has to be achievable by most of the people it affects as well as enough new people down the road to replace them.

If we need that third tier of sprite to make this stuff work this will never hold up as time progresses and people like Ausops eventually move on.