/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

beerobot wrote:

What we have that works - What we're getting that doesn't - What can be done with effort and attention to detail

Most things aren't making it to that third tier so far.

I dunno I took it more as "how easy it is to turn that shitty sprite from if you just make it 3/4ths to a fucking great sprite if you just make the 3/4ths one look less like shit"

I mean the problem of "a standard" is it has to be achievable by most of the people it affects as well as enough new people down the road to replace them.

If we need that third tier of sprite to make this stuff work this will never hold up as time progresses and people like Ausops eventually move on.

Incoming wrote:

beerobot wrote:

What we have that works - What we're getting that doesn't - What can be done with effort and attention to detail

Most things aren't making it to that third tier so far.

Basically it's like the "directly ported from goon tiny toolboxes" versus the "actually redrawn toolboxes that aren't the size of a postage stamp" problem again.
I don't think anyone reasonable would have a problem with the new sprites if they were up to the standard of that third row.

The biggest issue is that a lot of the new ones I'm seeing fail at the one task a sprite has to perform.
The single biggest, most important criteria for a sprite. The nearest thing you're going to get to an objective standard.
Does the icon immediately, obviously and intuitively represent the thing that it is supposed to be representing?
It doesn't matter how pretty it is, how nicely shaded it is, what fancy bells and whistles and animations and colours, if it doesn't meet that standard, then it's failed its task as an icon.

edit: and I'd like to see the original, oblique-projection sprite done to the standard of that 3rd row. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Won't know unless we see.

no, oblique sprites are not at all the same perspective as spacemen. mobs are flat-in-front, everything else in the game is either oblique, 3/4th, no perspective at all, or top-down.

your argument is WRONG.

besides, the solution to this would be 3/4th mobs, and that'd be a MASSIVE SUPER HUGE PROJECT HOLY SHIT NO

you would LOSE depth and detail

how is this so hard to understand?

i'm not throwing terms around to confuse people, you need to understand what perspectives even are and what they mean to sprites jesus christ that would look horrible you regressive mongoloid

Screemonster wrote: Does the icon immediately, obviously and intuitively represent the thing that it is supposed to be representing?

Did protolathes and autolathes immediately, obviously, and intuitively represent the thing that it was supposed to be representing?

No, there was a learning process involved. A newcomer did not have a pre-existing autolathe and protolathe schema in his head. It was learned. Because of this, we know there is wiggle room which can be exploited. It can be exploited to teach players to recognize new designs, new patterns, new schema.

Is perspective a factor on whether an item has easily recognizable characteristics similar to the schema of the item in the viewer's mind? Not entirely. Visual fidelity to the represented item has more to do with good linework and shading than perspective.

There are legitimate challenges facing 3/4th perspective sprites but those are (difficult) challenges, not really arguments.

Theres alot of words that should not be near ss13, "srt direction" is not one of them

Learning with Space Cube!



When I say in coderbus that there's a loss of information when converting to 3/4ths perspective this is what I'm talking about. In the conversion of an iso cube to a 3/4ths cube an entire side is lost. This is the worst case but nearly all conversions to 3/4ths so far have been of this variety. The Ausops fuel tanks shows why this has to be avoided at all costs. I don't want this game turning into a load of incomprehensible two sided cubes for "consistency".

Incoming wrote:Learning with Space Cube!



When I say in coderbus that there's a loss of information when converting to 3/4ths perspective this is what I'm talking about. In the conversion of an iso cube to a 3/4ths cube an entire side is lost. This is the worst case but nearly all conversions to 3/4ths so far have been of this variety. The Ausops fuel tanks shows why this has to be avoided at all costs. I don't want this game turning into a load of incomprehensible two sided cubes for "consistency".

What the fuck are you talking about

captain sawrge wrote:

Incoming wrote:Learning with Space Cube!



When I say in coderbus that there's a loss of information when converting to 3/4ths perspective this is what I'm talking about. In the conversion of an iso cube to a 3/4ths cube an entire side is lost. This is the worst case but nearly all conversions to 3/4ths so far have been of this variety. The Ausops fuel tanks shows why this has to be avoided at all costs. I don't want this game turning into a load of incomprehensible two sided cubes for "consistency".

What the fuck are you talking about

The conversion moves the top of the cube into parallel with the front face, the side bounded by blue and green lines is removed. Fidelity is lost in what the object actually looks like. I argue that high fidelity is more important than high consistency.

Listen it's an art v logic debate, it's gonna sound dumb on both sides sometimes.

NikNakFlak wrote:

But he's right.
The fu'cked up thing is...Anyone can contribute! Anyone can be a coder or a spriter! So all you have to do is be the change you want to see!

That has some truth, but I think players should always be a factor. If you are coding something and the players don't like it, fuck off. You aren't coding the game for yourself, go play single player if you want that.
I'm fighting 3/4 sprites as much as I can, so what the fuck else do I need to shove in Wjohnston's face

NikNakFlak wrote:That has some truth, but I think players should always be a factor. If you are coding something and the players don't like it, fuck off. You aren't coding the game for yourself, go play single player if you want that.
I'm fighting 3/4 sprites as much as I can, so what the fuck else do I need to shove in Wjohnston's face

A gun

Incoming wrote:Learning with Space Cube!



When I say in coderbus that there's a loss of information when converting to 3/4ths perspective this is what I'm talking about. In the conversion of an iso cube to a 3/4ths cube an entire side is lost. This is the worst case but nearly all conversions to 3/4ths so far have been of this variety. The Ausops fuel tanks shows why this has to be avoided at all costs. I don't want this game turning into a load of incomprehensible two sided cubes for "consistency".

Pretty nice visual, shows one of the issues with 3/4ths as currently shown

Boxes in particular are atrocious for this

no actually everyone IS coding the game for themselves, and for other people IF THEY WANT TO. that's why we're here at all.

again, i'm not saying this is the best way things should be or anything, only pointing out that this is how things currently work.

also thanks for not including the comment shortly after where i said i'd merge better box sprites without hesitation.

you yourself can do this, too. you can join in the coder scene and change the game however you see fit. it's free, open source, no rules, no regulations (other than functional quality or VERY RARELY balance complaints).

Incoming wrote:Learning with Space Cube!



When I say in coderbus that there's a loss of information when converting to 3/4ths perspective this is what I'm talking about. In the conversion of an iso cube to a 3/4ths cube an entire side is lost. This is the worst case but nearly all conversions to 3/4ths so far have been of this variety. The Ausops fuel tanks shows why this has to be avoided at all costs. I don't want this game turning into a load of incomprehensible two sided cubes for "consistency".

Just for fun, here's the reverse, the new embattled box sprites in the iso style without all the missing information filled in.

There's an argument to be made that an extra side on that is detrimental, as it provides no useful information, it's a plain solid colour, it provides nothing of value.

Plus you've made those boxes too long, they're now rectangles.

The boxes were already too long, I just put what was already there on the diagonal. That's a case of information that was there being applied incorrectly, the boxes are just too long in any interpretation.

And yes plain cardboard boxes don't have anything in that space, but most things do. I just did it with the boxes because it was easy.

I'm getting very frustrated in this debate because it seems the people who need to be convinced are the people least open to being convinced.

That's the thing though, nobody -needs- to be convinced of anything.

Remie Richards wrote:That's the thing though, nobody -needs- to be convinced of anything.

This, while were at it, ban appeals should be removed because admin's word is final!

A small insular group of people is pushing an unpopular change past the majority and pissing people off for very poor reasons. Things in the background seem to be escalating. Drama sucks and I don't want it. We're never going back to the bad old days. We need to be friends. This is so dumb.

To say it's a small group is unfair, even the loudest of the "fuck this" brigade have come out and accepted when the sprites have been genuinely better (like Large 3/4ths Toolboxes/Toolboxes 2.0)

Player polls done a while after toolboxes were merged suggest that it was actually a vocal insular group of people on the forums against the change

@calzila
I know you must wonder all the time why no one seems to ever listen to your incredibly smart and insightful posts
and it's actually because you're not very smart or insightful at all
and that might sound crazy to you but the evidence is all there!

The pattern so far has been that nearly all the initial attempts at 3/4 are tragic head on boxes followed by someone stepping up and making them passible only because people keep bitching about it.

How many times are we going to have to go through this pattern before people realize that there are intrinsic problems with trying to piecemeal a 3/4ths view into a game that isn't at all in 3/4ths?

To say it's a small group is unfair, even the loudest of the "fuck this" brigade have come out and accepted when the sprites have been genuinely better (like Large 3/4ths Toolboxes/Toolboxes 2.0)

That doesn't make them "part of your group" that makes them "tired of fighting over this".

>it starts off as a debate but always works out in the end

what's the issue incoming?

I have made many valid points in this thread and you are not going to bait me into making poor ones so you can ignore the rest.

Ultimately what's happening here isn't things "working out in the end" it's "people being obstinate despite sound evidence until the other side gives up". That's not healthy for this codebase or anyone working on it.

I hope candidly that the people who need to come around do so before this turns into an even more frustrating situation. Read what I wrote. No more for today.

Even the server host doesn't like 3/4ths perspective. I'm waiting for the day MSO gets fedup and manually merges reverts on his end or something.

NikNakFlak wrote:Even the server host doesn't like 3/4ths perspective. I'm waiting for the day MSO gets fedup and manually merges reverts on his end or something.

How is that any better than what coderbus is being faulted for

It agrees with my views

captain sawrge wrote:

NikNakFlak wrote:Even the server host doesn't like 3/4ths perspective. I'm waiting for the day MSO gets fedup and manually merges reverts on his end or something.

How is that any better than what coderbus is being faulted for

Sprite changes are 100% opinion, such a huge transition in spriting as going from one perspective to another and changing everything around that needs a better reason than the spriters at that moment feeling like it.

Opinion: 3-4 looks like shit, I don't need the tops of everything taking up a third of the sprite and the side being completely imperceptible.

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Sprite changes are 100% opinion.

Objectively false.

Explain

captain sawrge wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Sprite changes are 100% opinion.

Objectively false.

Please explain how you objectively measure the quality of one sprite to the other.

baited

beerobot wrote:

alienware desktops on wheels

Damn. I never thought I'd see people get this worked up over something that isn't a conversion gamemode.

Although many of the new sprites are clearly superior in quality to the old ones (see toolboxes), I'm not liking the shift in perspective. While in the end I'd adapt and 3/4 would become the norm, nothing would change in gameplay, etc. I like the oblique perspective more, and SS13 doesn't really need a cohesive art style as far as I'm concerned. Before he turned to flaming and name-calling, WJohn made a good point that we don't have enough a real perspective, just a mishmash of different ones. And I think that's fine.

In short, while the sprites are better quality, I don't like the perspective shift and I think it's both wasted effort and takes away detail. I supported the toolbox PR because of how bad the sprites really were, but I don't like the trend of unnecessary follow-ups to shift good or passable sprites into a different perspective. Incoming and Cosmic stand out to me as people who have good, educated reasons for why the shift is bad, but they're being shot down for asinine reasons by people who, mostly, are behaving like children, including the people who made the new sprites themselves and who appear to be unable of taking any criticism before exploding. If I can cut my own gamemode entirely out of the game without argument, I think your small sprites aren't that big of a deal and I think you need to think about why you're wasting time and energy being so incredibly upset about people not liking a minor change you made to a server that averages around 100 concurrent players.

Just my two cents.

there is a russian code base with 3/4 sprites and it is amazing, although not just because of their sprites

https://github.com/Endless-Horizon/CEV-Eris

it works

Remie Richards wrote:>it starts off as a debate but always works out in the end

what's the issue incoming?

Incoming is afraid of change and the rate of change no longer makes him comfortable, however, the new rate of change is simply a sign of a healthy contributor base.

Hell the sprite churn is nothing more than some spriters being more active.

essentially he doesn't like conflict, so seeks to reduce or avoid change as it naturally brings conflict and debate.

What the fuck is this shit

These new boxes are seriously bad to look at. New vending machines/etc are also questionable, I just think the top side is too big.

If new box sprites are suggested, I'd be happy to merge them, as well as improvements over vending machines. I believe ausops is currently working on new box sprites, and dannno may be revising his vendors.

If you think that's bad you haven't even seen blank ID boxes.

i'm not, as trustygun made perfectly acceptable box sprites

Why does each and every object have to look like you [the person behind the screen] is viewing it when ingame the character has 4 different directions he/she/the dirty lizard could be viewing it from ?

Things that go Front-Left to Back-right and other non "YOU ARE VIEWING THIS FROM THE FRONT" angle are alright lol. It's going to look really ugly if you did manage to make all of these sprites fit the perspective imo.

Of course, i'm no art major, but I think uniformity in art isn't always a good thing.

>Why does each and every object have to look like you [the person behind the screen] is viewing it when ingame the character has 4 different directions he/she/the dirty lizard could be viewing it from ?

years upon years of real art majors and more importantly, mythical figures behind old snes games and the like, have collectively determined that to be a non-factor

beerobot wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:>it starts off as a debate but always works out in the end

what's the issue incoming?

Incoming is afraid of change and the rate of change no longer makes him comfortable, however, the new rate of change is simply a sign of a healthy contributor base.

Hell the sprite churn is nothing more than some spriters being more active.

essentially he doesn't like conflict, so seeks to reduce or avoid change as it naturally brings conflict and debate.

Don't misrepresent my position.

Yes I think that too quick a pace of change can be a bad thing because both players and coders need time to adapt to what the codebase throws at them before it changes again. I can't code for a game I cannot keep track of in terms of new mechanics and balance changes because I need to keep a bead on this stuff for my own considerations. The quicker it goes the more effort I have to put in on just mentally parsing things. It's not me being "afraid of change" it's me "expending too much effort on the parts of coding that I find tiring in a volunteer project". Maybe my tolerances for this stuff is lower than yours, but I hardly think it's an unreasonable concern to raise.

Most if not all coders have experienced this at least once recently. When clockwork cult was new and tweaks and reworks were coming in fast and constantly by a single person no one else attempted to even question it. I wager very few people were actively keeping track of these changes by the end, because every single one of them required the previous ones to make sense. After the first dozen or so PRs it gets tiring, you leave it up to the one person who knows the whole story.

That said none of that has anything to do with this problem. I don't like THIS for the bevvy of practical issues I've raised already. It's a perspective that insists itself be taken literally, and because it has to be taken literally now we have to deal with storage boxes that can be stored inside a backpack being larger (in terms of depth at the very least) than vending machines.

It has nothing to do with the pacing, it has everything to do with the content.

I think that while we do need to overhaul a lot of these sprites, that making it in this freakish 3/4th perspective is a mistake

Thunder11 wrote:If you think that's bad you haven't even seen blank ID boxes.

this + spare lights boxes are just atrocious imo

like, no offense to the guy who made these, but... wow