/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

ShadowDimentio wrote:tl;dr Sprites are iconic and beloved by the community, don't tear them out because you think the alternative is better.

cedarbridge wrote:

MisterPerson wrote:I think you're misunderstanding what position I was arguing against. Which is my fault for making an overly broad statement but whatever.

There are two positions I find ridiculous. The first, the one that really bothers me the most and the reason I spoke up in the first place, was the one made by NikNak in the OP where he specifically says the new sprite is better but wants the old shittier one because of nostalgia. This argument is retarded at its base and obviously should be discarded. The second stupid argument is the one we're talking about right now, the empty complaint. Most complainers, no matter where they're complaining, are by definition a vocal minority. I would absolutely love to help the complainers because even a vocal minority of one is still one real person whose seriously pissed off. However, since they didn't specify what the problem was and not accepting the sprite is unacceptable since the new sprite would probably be liked by the silent majority, there's absolutely nothing that can be done to resolve the complaint.

Obviously that argument doesn't apply if the majority would not like the new sprite. This turns out to be very hard to prove in practice. For example the current crop of complaining may very well be a silent majority of dislike, but there's no way of knowing for sure. And before you point to that poll, no, the forums are not a representative sample of players. Of course it's some good solid evidence there's a very sizable group of people who dislike the new sprites, which is why I gave a friendly tip that they'll make a stronger case if they explain what the problem is clearly. And I want to stress the problem can be extremely subjective. Hate all 3/4ths? That's fine. Don't like how dark the new toolboxes are? Great! Do they just look too wide/flat/tall/short/skinny? Those are all resolvable problems, and yes, sometimes that resolution does in fact include reversion. But without knowing what the problem is, it sounds an awful lot like that "all change is bad" complaining NikNak made that nobody gives a fuck about.

I'm much more sympathetic to this position as stated and your concerns. However, I do find some space for the "nostalgia" position as, to a degree, SS13 has never really been about pretty graphics to many players. Its always been "a bad game that we play anyway" and many are drawn to it for that aspect. Its a design conundrum because making "improvements" runs counter to that desire. There's nothing really stupid about that desire. Its just different priorities. As the OP says, that silly old sprite is semi-iconic in its own way and holds cultural/emotional value for some players. There's nothing wrong with that.

As you mention, there are many who post on the forums and either don't/can't/don't bother with the game as something they actually play but feel motivated to chime in about it on the forums. Those can be rightfully dismissed, but I fear that given recent overtones in the conversation, legitimate players with complaints or general aesthetic dislike for changes are getting the "baby with the bathwater" treatment. Additionally, I'm not sure we're meeting eye to eye on this sub-issue. The presumption being presented is that changes are presumed good until proven so unsalvageable as to require reversion. Why should the presumption not be against inclusion in the first place until the change is determined to be desirable? I mean, if we're going to compare the sample sizes for feedback groups, a forum poll is certainly larger and more diverse than a github PR feed. The usual response is "anyone can access git/coderbus" but not everyone with a stake in the game should need to idle a coder channel just to keep an eye out for changes they don't like. That's just really backwards to me.

To subjectivity, a lot of why many complaints don't turn into specific feedback that results in "fixes" is because some complaints simply don't have accurate or complete ways to articulate themselves. That's part of what makes them subjective. For example, taken as a whole, I just don't like the new boxes as compared to the shape and style of the others. If pressed I suppose I could really dig into it and name off some specific minor gripes about color or shape or style, but none of them really articulate how I think or feel about the design as a whole. I imagine this is similar for many others. Where there lacks proper terms of specific gripes but overall the whole package just doesn't feel right, they explain it in the simplest way they can. "This sucks, I don't like it. Revert." Obviously that's not really helpful if the goal from the start is to keep the changed sprite in and just go through the "fix" ritual for an undetermined amount of time before allowing reversion.

John_Oxford wrote:<some large text>

beerobot wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

beerobot wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

John_Oxford wrote:

beerobot wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:<some large text>

wrong, it's our job to do what we like and it's your job to be quiet and take the dicking peacefully

don't worry citrusfag your the first one im deporting when i become headmin.

John_Oxford wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:He's not wrong.

vote 4 me and ill throw everything hg has done and worked for towards absolute seperation away within the first 100 days

(i need someone to replace sawfag, he probally wasen't voting for me anyways he's kind of a low energy degenerate)

Kor wrote:Headmins have zero control over who is a maintainer.

Remie Richards wrote:All you'll do is end up without a codebase

cedarbridge wrote:

Remie Richards wrote:All you'll do is end up without a codebase

>its this threat again

ShadowDimentio wrote:I'm ready and able to do both of those things.

Except code. I can't code. Everything else though.

ShadowDimentio wrote:There will always be coders, Remie. The current coder regime getting thrown out wouldn't deter people from wanting to improve the game.

Worst case scenario there are fewer of them, and thus less need to maintain the game because there are fewer changes. Hardly any real loss.

ShadowDimentio wrote:I sincerely doubt that people preferred the asteroid to lavaland 2-1 at any point ever, and the same goes for all the gamemodes developed over the years.

And the important difference is that these are sprites we're talking about, there's nothing objective about them it's 100% opinion, and the stats say 2-1 want the old sprites back.

danno wrote:HG and paprika have made more positive changes to the game than you ever will
This is quantifiable fact.
We can measure this. We can pit you against probably any coder you might hate and they will come out on top.

ShadowDimentio wrote:It's less I hate coders, with the two exceptions of HG and Papsmear who both unironically thought they ran the fucking game, I just hate trying to give feedback and it being ignored. I've campaigned for years for all manner of things and ideas and I don't think a single thing has been ever acted on, with the one exception of Xhuis listening. It's frustrating.

Qbopper wrote:some people are in the "fuck any and all changes, coderbus is satan's domain"

Thunder11 wrote:3/4th perspective really does look pretty bad for anything with any sort of curved front. I tried redoing rechargers in it and all I ever ended up with is a box:

ShadowDimentio wrote:There will always be coders, Remie. The current coder regime getting thrown out wouldn't deter people from wanting to improve the game.

Worst case scenario there are fewer of them, and thus less need to maintain the game because there are fewer changes. Hardly any real loss.

Screemonster wrote:I don't think people are really arguing "don't change them ever" so much as "don't change them to that"

For instance, the sprites under the spoiler in Niknak's post? The computer consoles?
Here's a shitty sketch of what I see in the old sprites versus what I see in the new, shifted to a more isometric perspective:


I won't deny the shading is nicer, but they simply don't look like what they're supposed to be.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Screemonster wrote:I don't think people are really arguing "don't change them ever" so much as "don't change them to that"

For instance, the sprites under the spoiler in Niknak's post? The computer consoles?
Here's a shitty sketch of what I see in the old sprites versus what I see in the new, shifted to a more isometric perspective:


I won't deny the shading is nicer, but they simply don't look like what they're supposed to be.

Quoting again because this post is really good

captain sawrge wrote:Thanx for the quote chain circlejerk about a dead PR. Big thumbs up, gang!

MMMiracles wrote:3/4th perspective looks okay in only items, everything else just looks off if it isn't hugging a north wall.

Spoiler:

Like here, the vendors visually make sense in their perspective, no problems here.

Spoiler:

Situations like this, however, just seem off to me. They look like someone installed them in the wrong direction and didn't bother to rotate them around.

Directional sprites would solve this issue but that probably adds in a lot more work than people are intending for this shift in perspective to take. I might just be being weird about it but that's how I see most of these shifts working out.

MMMiracles wrote:3/4th perspective looks okay in only items, everything else just looks off if it isn't hugging a north wall.

Spoiler:

Like here, the vendors visually make sense in their perspective, no problems here.

Spoiler:

Situations like this, however, just seem off to me. They look like someone installed them in the wrong direction and didn't bother to rotate them around.

Directional sprites would solve this issue but that probably adds in a lot more work than people are intending for this shift in perspective to take. I might just be being weird about it but that's how I see most of these shifts working out.

CosmicScientist wrote:To be honest showing some current vending machines being up against walls might show off that it's an issue with the current ones as well. Maybe even against a specific left or right wall too.

I just wish they weren't squares.

beerobot wrote: