Tabletop Simulator

[Ikarrus]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Hey, I disagree, but I don't think either of us are going to change our minds so lets just stick with the Rules when it comes to Promissory Notes. Play with Support, but no Free Trade.

[dezzmont]

Hey, I disagree, but I don't think either of us are going to change our minds so lets just stick with the Rules when it comes to Promissory Notes. Play with Support, but no Free Trade.

I am 110% willing to play with the trading of notes if people are down for that. I am just stating why I think it sorta perverts the game design. If I am right, good players at the table will be obnoxious with them you will never want to use the houserule again, otherwise everything is dandy and you get a better game.

[Ikarrus]

I host a game with a group that got together almost every week for a long time now and we never found it encouraged aggressive play or eliminations.

Usually the weaker empire getting beaten will hold a grudge and not offer anything to the aggressor, instead offering his Support for anyone else to fuck him over instead. That, and the fact that the binding agreement only applied to one immediate action, meant that giving it to someone who can destroy you anyways text turn is a stupid move.

It was used more of a "Fuck, that move is going to ruin my game-winning strategy. Lets try bargaining with Support and maybe he won't catch on"

I dunno. We love the rule, tried it without it and missed Promissory notes being used at all (We're usually really stingy with them in Assembly. Almost none get handed out). I understand its not for everyone, though.

[Ikarrus]

I actually like the idea of promissory notes being traded if they don't enforce their agreements as well, sort of like how the Haccan can trade action cards but suddenly decide not to give away a card if someone tried to cheat them or if they feel saucy. It creates a tension near the end game where suddenly it becomes a real risk that you are handing over a note in order to allow someone to backstab you and win the game with it.

Hey I wouldn't mind trying it this way either.

[Timbrewolf]

I think one of the core fundaments of Twilight Imperium is that nothing is really binding outside of what is stated on action cards and political agendas.

I can promise you the universe in exchange for your help now, and then laugh as your whole empire burns to the ground when you need my help. That's the quintessential nature of the game: political backstabber 2000. Attacking someone who was supposed to be your good buddy when you sense weakness. Letting an ally go off to war by themselves when you see an opportunity to let two threats knock eachother out of the race for Emperor.

You shouldn't ever really have alliances like that in the game. You should never swoop in to rescue someone and fight a liberating war for a "friend". There's no such thing as "friends" in the game. If two players are buddying up and one is tacitly accepting a sort of vassal relationship with the other they're kinda circumventing the game design and the balance of the game gets really screwy.

If people want to play with your promissory notes I'm fine doing what the group wants, I'm just kinda reluctant to want to put too many house rules into people's first learning experiences. Teaching them just the core mechanics of the game without our mods so they can later figure out for themselves what they would add or subtract from the game.

[Ikarrus]

I've never played with them tradable but not binding (Might actually be better this way) and I'd like to do that.

We're still going to play with all the optional rules + expansions?

Thoughts on Strategy Cards?

Leadership
Diplomacy II
Assembly I (Played with representatives)
Production
Trade II
Warfare II (AND Warfare I if we have 4 or 8 players. For initiative, Warfare I would go first)
Technology II
Bureaucracy

[Timbrewolf]

I can't remember what each card does just by name. I'd have to sit down and look at them.

[Tsaricide]

I'd like to but I probably wouldnt be awake until 8pm your time.

[dezzmont]

Trade 2 changes it so that trading with the secondary instead of costing command instead reduces the value of the trade by 1, so you trade more often, but get less value for each trade. It also gives the primary the ability to cancel a specific trade, rather than nuking all the trades. It soooorta devalues trade 1s but not really, because trade 1s are more about extorting a good trade deal than giving other people stuff and aren't worth a command point anyway. Good trade card.

Tech 2 makes the secondary cheaper, at 6, but allows the primary user to buy a second tech with 8. So getting it is no longer just about a free tech, but more tech. Again, encourages more tech play which is nice.

Diplomacy 2 has an ability that forces everyone to place a command counter in a system with a planet you own, effectively preventing them from activating that system without finagling, which means its almost total protection for one system, rather than Diplomacy's total block of activation between you and one other player for all your systems. It also lets you activate its new secondary without a command counter. Its secondary lets you pay a command counter and 3 influence to take over an empty planet other than Mecatol Rex that is next to one of your systems. Its sorta a mixed bag but makes getting forced to use tech better.

Warfare 2 nerfs warfare a lot while also changing its effect to be much less production oriented. You get a token that gives all your ships in the system with the token +1 to move and combat rolls. The token can move with any ships you move from the system its in if you want. The secondary lets you move two ships from an unactivated system to another for a command token, without activating that system, meaning you get consequence free movement. As warfare 1 was literally one of the most overpowered strategy cards in the game, and it sat high in number, I don't think it should replace the initiative card. Warfare 2 should be the only warfare used.

There are two Bureaucracy cards. I don't know which one they want to use because neither are labeled, I am assuming the non-red tape one, which doesn't grant any victory points when claimed, but instead rapidly places out new objectives based on its bonus counters if it hasn't been picked, grants you an extra command counter, and lets you choose from the top two objectives of the deck to put into play. Its secondary lets you draw a politics card and an action card. Basically it reduces how cripplingly important the 8th strategy card is by not having it be a generic 2 victory points or 1 for controlling Rex. I really hate the imperial card, and imperial 2 is only slightly better.

Production totally changes the 4 slot from a command point generator into... well... more production! It lets you build in a system without activating it, and even if it has already been activated, and it grants 2 bonus resources to do so. The secondary lets people spend a command point to build up to 3 units in a system with a dock, no bonus resources, but also no activation. Works well when using leadership, which we probably should.

Assembly gives you 1 politics and 2 action cards rather than 3 action cards, and lets you either claim the speaker title and choose someone else to play a political card, or to give away the speaker role to play a political card yourself. Secondary lets you refresh planets with a command token, with a combined resources and influence of 6 or less. Using reps I would assume is just using the assembly card while also using the stages from representatives, which is fine with me.

Leadership replaces initiative, and instead of making strategic secondaries free in terms of command it lets you take 3 command tokens. Secondary lets people buy up to 3 tokens for 2 influence each. Generic initiative is kinda meh once Imperial leaves the game, and leadership does interesting things.

[Ikarrus]

Here's some reference for Strategy Cards
http://www.sirreileffects.com/strategy-cards.html

>Warfare
I meant if we were to play with both of them so we'd play with 9 strategy cards (Mostly so the last player isn't forced to pick one). Warfare I would be Initiative 5, and Warfare II would be Initiative 5.5. Totally optional, though. I just thought we could try it out if we ended up with exactly 4 players.

>Bureaucracy
There's only one. The red tape one was a community-designed one and not included in the base game nor any of the expansions. I believe it's supposed to blend Imperial II with Bureaucracy. I don't mind Imperial II because you still have to work for it, and if you activate it using it's A ability, it gives every other player a free production action, which I think is a really neat tradeoff. It works well with the extended game option (14 VPs) and you get around the same length of game as you would playing Bureaucracy. The biggest downside for me is that there'd be two Production-related cards. Imperial I is shit and should never be played ever.

[Incomptinence]

I'm mostly attached to representatives because the idea of some grizzled assassin taking out the nekro "councillor" to save the senate amuses me.

[dezzmont]

I will be out to lunch at 12 PM EST for probably an hour or three on saturday so we should definitely lean towards early evening rather than early afternoon.

[Incomptinence]

Actually looks like I won't be able to make it please disregard me for this one.

[Ikarrus]

I'm mostly attached to representatives because the idea of some grizzled assassin taking out the nekro "councillor" to save the senate amuses me.

My group fucking loves the Political game, which is why we prefer to play with Assembly I for the added incentive of taking it. We also have a habit of voting in "Necessary Bureaucracy" (Every time you vote on a political card, draw another political card and immediately have another vote) every chance we get, which is surprisingly often. Like, every other game.

[dezzmont]

My body is ready! How we doing this?

[Ikarrus]

I'll be ready as soon as I finish my lunch here.

I'm assuming anon is hosting

[Timbrewolf]

Hey sorry I've been in bed with a migraine all day. I only got up to apologize to you guys for not being able to make it, take more painkillers, and probably crawl back into bed.

[Ikarrus]

If it's just Dezz and I then, we'll have to postpone this until later.

With a more concrete time hopefully.

[Incomptinence]

I spent the time driving for 5 hours to miss a job interview because I had unplugged my phone charger to vacuum the day before and well getting lost ensued.

Fuck me.

[Incomptinence]

So we going to plan anything else? Near everything worth playing in Table sim is prearranged locked games.