[Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

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[Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 07, 2019 2:24 am #492439

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Sybil
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Yakumochen, Space Dragon
Admin: Cedarbridge
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 107746

Disclaimer: This is not an ided complaint or a complaint about events. This is admin criticism about admin handling of events I would like a headmin response from. I enjoyed the round and don't really care about how it ended, I just dislike the admin actions to respond to events.

Detailed summary: I'd love to spin a tale about an epic gamer time but since this is FNR I will try to keep it brief.
-Admins spawn three blobs. This is unrelated but provides some context to what the station has to deal with.
-Random space dragon event. I get picked. Fuck you I'm a dragon.
-TrogdorTheBurninator.wav
-I am enjoying the round as a Dragon. I kill a bunch of mechs and eat people. Eventually eat my target. Try to help blobs by distracting crew and eating them.
-ERT with pulse weapons get called. Understandable since three three blobs and a dragon. The ERT doesn't really try hard to deal with me, they have their hands full with the blobs anyway.
-A guy in captain's hardsuit, jetpack and with his sword [henceforth referred to as "The Captain"] however decides to do battle with me, with just the sword.
-Some cool admin decides to play the Skyrim theme while we have this battle in space. It's probably the most fun time I had that round battling The Captain, neither of us had a significant edge over the other and The Captain was successfully preventing me from attacking the rest of the crew by fighting me
-Eventually the fight ends with a draw. Both of us retreat to heal in our respective ways (me by eating dead mobs and blob stuff since it heals me)
-Eventually head back towards Aft to eat Xenobio mobs. Blobs are dead and shuttle is counting down to leave. The Captain appears again to fight me.
-I expect one last fight, maybe hoping to stall him out of the shuttle timer and strand him and end him for good. Excited because the tension has been high this round and I have been enjoying it.
-Captain hits me once. I am a ghost now. I am confused.
-I ahelp it. I get a response from an admin (can't remember who) who responds with "He found a supermatter sword"

So, I was prepared to drop this, as the round was over and I enjoyed the rest of the round, but another thread ided whining about Space Dragons and my other experience as one (cedar (I think) spawned two deathsquad, which are essentially unkillable for Space Dragons, because he doesn't like the antag) has convinced me otherwise. This isn't specifically about space dragons but it is about how admins respond to threats which can destroy an unprepared crew.

So, let's talk tension. Tension is a very important part of the game.It is a good thing when the crew is very afraid they will not make it home in one piece. Probably some of the most exciting moments are watching a shuttle leave on the precipice of getting destroyed by something (like a singulo) or watching the last survivor try and hide on a shuttle from a hijacking traitor.
Good tension = Good Story. Good Story = Memorable Round
I believe strong antags deserve to create a lot of tension for the crew. The crew should rightfully have difficulty fighting a robust antag. If the crew wins, good for them. If the crew barely survives winning against them, even better. If the antag wins and kills everyone, that should be fine too.

However, mashing the "SPAWN I WIN THING" against an antag who is dominating I feel is an extremely poor way to handle an antag. It completely deflates the tension when an admin just lets someone """""""find""""""" a Supermatter Sword to conveniently oneshot a threatening antagonist. It reeks of bias and an ided attitude from admins, and ruins any more possible fun things that could have happened had admins not gotten their way. It's not even about "winning" for the antag, it's about the experience of watching or doing a fight that has the potential to be cool and fun and memorable.

Say I had decided to attack the shuttle from space as it was leaving. That would have been fun. The crew was heavily armed and there was an ERT with pulse guns, if nothing else I could have set a few people on fire, I probably wouldn't have been able to overtake the shuttle's passengers and might have died or have been forced to run away.
Say the captain had fought me one last time with his sabre to force me to focus on him instead of going for the shuttle. I know there was a very large number of observers around me, they likely would have been eager to watch that last fight had it been legitimate.

The criticism here is that admins should focus on creating a memorable experience. I think someone needs talking to about that, because whatever caused the admin to spawn a supermatter sword to "end" the antag threat, possibly for reasons of salt that it was dominating or being killed by it, should reconsider how they handle oversight of rounds and handling the tension the game creates.
Last edited by Yakumo_Chen on Tue May 07, 2019 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: [Unknown Admin] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Hulkamania » Tue May 07, 2019 2:55 am #492447

A reminder that you should include what admin in specific you are talking about here, as this forum is not designed for anything other than that. If you do not know the name of the admin, I can let you know so that you may make the complaint more specific.

Keep in mind the following post that is stickied in this subforum as well:
If you have a problem with an event, it no longer goes here. Use Event Workshop for critique and ideas, use admin feedback to talk about a specific admin's events, and use singulo to bitch. Remember you can also talk to any admin by adminhelping, finding an admin you trust and PMing them or in #supportbus.


If you believe that this incident still warrants an admin complaint after reviewing this and making your complaint specifically directed, we can leave it up. Otherwise you may wish to open a policy thread or leave feedback in that admins thread as an alternative.

PostThis post was deleted by Hulkamania on Tue May 07, 2019 3:30 am.
Reason: peanut posting

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Re: [Unknown Admin] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 07, 2019 3:27 am #492468

Hulkamania wrote:A reminder that you should include what admin in specific you are talking about here, as this forum is not designed for anything other than that. If you do not know the name of the admin, I can let you know so that you may make the complaint more specific.

Keep in mind the following post that is stickied in this subforum as well:
If you have a problem with an event, it no longer goes here. Use Event Workshop for critique and ideas, use admin feedback to talk about a specific admin's events, and use singulo to bitch. Remember you can also talk to any admin by adminhelping, finding an admin you trust and PMing them or in #supportbus.


If you believe that this incident still warrants an admin complaint after reviewing this and making your complaint specifically directed, we can leave it up. Otherwise you may wish to open a policy thread or leave feedback in that admins thread as an alternative.

Yes, I am having a hard time getting to the logs via statbus (I just get errors) and as stated in the thread I believe the admin who did it should be warranted a complaint. This is not about an event, it's about an admin's actions. I did in fact already consider this, which is why there's a disclaimer, in bold!

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Re: [Unknown Admin] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby oranges » Tue May 07, 2019 3:31 am #492473

parsed logs are broken so you won't be able to access them, then again so is raw logs, I'll connect via keyholder and see if I can get the relevant details
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Hulkamania
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Re: [Unknown Admin] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Hulkamania » Tue May 07, 2019 3:32 am #492474

Cedarbridge is the one who spawned the sword, please edit your original post accordingly. oranges providing you logs is also much appreciated.

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Re: [Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 07, 2019 3:36 am #492476

Great, I have edited the post. It's interesting because Cedar is already relevant to why I made the thread in the first place (they are unabashedly biased against the antag in question and already have a history with poor handling of space dragons being spawned with regards to tension.)

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Re: [Ceaderbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby oranges » Tue May 07, 2019 3:44 am #492480

Relevant logs , with ext ra info snipped.

Getting this was kind of a pain over RDP, so I won't warrant that the order is correct, or that I got everything, but I think it's right.

[2019-05-06 12:34:14.919] ADMIN: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) spawned /obj/item/melee/supermatter_sword at Emergency Shuttle (97, 59, 2)

[2019-05-06 12:34:32.011] ADMIN: SubtlePM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) -> Git Dat Disc/(Nick Power) : Go back and look under the chair

[2019-05-06 12:35:16.579] ADMIN: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) deleted the supermatter sword at (97,59,2)

[2019-05-06 12:37:38.265] ADMIN: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) spawned /obj/item/melee/supermatter_sword at The Dungeon (132, 66, 2)

[2019-05-06 12:37:52.654] ADMIN: SubtlePM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) -> Git Dat Disc/(Nick Power) : Every hero needs a sword

[2019-05-06 12:39:48.186] ADMIN: DSAY: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees) "orbit me for the hero that will save the station" (RAGE CAGE SUPREME (107, 79, 2))

[2019-05-06 12:40:51.243] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Cedarbridge/(Dreams-of-Trees)->Yakumo Chen/(space dragon): He found it.

Taken from the raw logs of that round
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Re: [Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby cedarbridge » Tue May 07, 2019 4:26 am #492498

Yakumo_Chen wrote:Great, I have edited the post. It's interesting because Cedar is already relevant to why I made the thread in the first place (they are unabashedly biased against the antag in question and already have a history with poor handling of space dragons being spawned with regards to tension.)


If by "unabashed'y biased against the antag" you mean, I find that the antag is itself a poor addition to the game and that it leads to substantially less interesting rounds where it is introduced, sure. Guilty.

To start with, that particular dragon was never supposed to spawn in the first place. It only did because I failed to cancel its spawn when the notice appeared. In a round where two blobs had been spawned (and then a third behind it at a second admin's discretion), I didn't believe the addition of a buffed megafauna was at all needed. The addition of a super-powered solo antag, in this case, did nothing to add "tension" to the round. Considering that's the basis of your complaint is that somehow adding a "dominating" antagonist to a situation makes things more "tense" and that by adding this "tension" to the round it is per se improved, I simply disagree. Tension in a round and the excitement of survival is built on maintaining a balance between threats and means to combat those escapes. Having an all-powerful super-carp flying around gibbing people and then coming back fully healed to do it again is not tense. It does not add excitement to the round. This is also hampered by the extremely limited means the crew have to dealing with the antagonist. This is also not "tense" or interesting for the crew. There is plenty of room for poweful and threatening antagonists in rounds, but ultimately those threats need to be tempered with meaningful counterplay in order to be interesting or instead of "tension" and interesting stories you get "and then the all powerful god being killed me and there was nothing I could do." I'm sure that feels really good from the position of the dragon player. As you were the dragon player in both of these cases I'm sure you felt very good slowly wittling down the station population one defenseless mime after unarmed assistant at a time. However, its my job as an admin to consider the play experience of the other 69 potential people on the server as well. This is the same reason that admins intervene when we have solo traitors who "dominate" too much of a round silently and uninterestingly murdering the whole station. Again, powerful antagonists are sometimes important to create a powerful threat for the crew to counter and rise against, but I'm simply not impressed that space dragons create that powerful but interesting threat. Like anything else, you're not entitled to a superpowered role antagonist role and its within admin discretion to make changes to the round's narrative to hamper or remove you if doing so allows the round to progress or move to something more interesting.

After discussion with other admins on the subject, I'm willing to concede that the particular tool I provided to the captain in counter to the dragon was overkill. There are other items that are both powerful and less anti-climatic. Ultimately, however, I believe the only thing that went wrong with that outcome was the anti-climax itself. As you admit yourself, the crew had more than their hands full already without your assisting the blobs by attacking the people fighting them. Your doing so was not for the purpose of adding "tension" to the round but entirely for the purpose of flexing a murderboner on the crew as a neigh untouchable antagonist mob. This is puzzling when you framed this complaint as "not an ided" complaint when it either really really is one, or you just don't like that I'm not on board with space dragons. The first is my problem only insofar as I provided an anti-climatic way that the result was brought about (in the second case anyway, the deathsquads in the first were very warranted.) The second is not likely to change as I'm simply not impressed that the space dragons side antag is worthy and I am not inclined to intentionally include it in any future rounds.

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Re: [Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue May 07, 2019 6:18 am #492509

My only problem was that you used a supermatter sword, which was extreme overkill. Having you admit that is really main basis of my complaint. I really, truly don't care that I died, only that it was done in an incredibly boring and overpowered way. I don't care if you get punished or not either, I just am tired of seeing dumb overpowered shit used against me because the admin wasn't happy with an antag.

Your opinion about space dragons is simply not true, but that isn't really on topic for this complaint. Being the second time you've summoned something really overpowered to deal with it is when it becomes an issue.

Deathsquads are really dumb to summon in almost any situation, let alone against a lone antagonist, especially an antagonist that mainly does damage through burn (fire immune hardsuits) and brute (the armor has like 80 brute resist) and they have like 50 charge pulse rifles. Even half damage against the mob they still shave a full 10% of the HP off, not to mention their pistols fuck up any space dragon day. ERT at least don't have all the benefits of deathsquad armor.

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed May 22, 2019 5:37 am.
Reason: peanut

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed May 22, 2019 5:37 am.
Reason: peanut

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed May 22, 2019 5:37 am.
Reason: peanut

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Re: [Cedarbridge] Yakumo Chen - "He found a Supermatter Sword"

Postby Nervere » Fri May 24, 2019 1:34 am #495258

Supermatter swords are indeed a very lame way to deal with an antagonist, even on a hellish shift like that one.
I want to point out something, though: the shift was practically already lost to adminbus. Three blobs on the station is already a huge threat, but a space dragon added to the fray is even worse.
Put it another way, this shift already really sucked. When the station is in dire straits like it was during this rounds, admins have to improvise to keep the round enjoyable, especially when something unexpected happens like a random event antagonist, such as the space dragon.

I do not buy that a space dragon helping three blobs kill the station added anything to the fun or "tension" of that shift, it was already a chaotic murder fest and nothing was gained from another overpowered antagonist contributing to the death count. That being said, this doesn't mean that what Cedar did was good. I want to reiterate that supermatter swords and any other sort of instant-kill weapon are boring ways to deal with a threat to the station.
Cedar has acknowledged that his actions were overkill, has fully explained his perspective, and concedes that could have been done better. Frankly, that's all that I needed to see from him in this complaint.
The incident isn't a big deal itself, and as long as the message is received that supermatter/insta-kill weapons are a bad way to handle events even in an already chaotic round, I think we can all walk away from this satisfied.

On the events side of things: Cedarbridge is advised to be cautious with how he IC'ly keeps the round fun for everyone involved.
On the actual complaint side of things: We've decided to not uphold this complaint on the basis that Cedar did not violate admin conduct rules and handled the situation with care, as shown by his explanation of the events during the round.


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