[Ambassador Magikarp] Richard Lord - uncertainty

[4dplanner]

Post Content:
Byond account and character name: 4DPlanner, Richard Lord
Admin: Ambassador Magikarp
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Basil, just before 1:30 GMT
Detailed summary: I had realised a virus as virologist that contained regeneration and a number of completely nonharmful buffing symptoms (sneezing, alopecia, fever, itching, shivering, evolutionary acceleration).
I announced this virus on the radio, and told people the cure in case they wanted to remove it. I was then killed by Edward Sloan, who dragged my body away afterwards where it was incinerated by an antag.
I ahelped about this, and I was cloned despite the incineration - at which point Edward Sloan tracked me down and killed me *again*. The following exchange with ambassador magicarp occured:
[Logs are not yet up and the screen scrolled, so I'll have to summarise this bit]
Ambassador Magikarp roughly said that people often assume that the virus is bad when they see what he termed an "annoying symptom" such as sneezing.
Admin PM from-Ambassador Magikarp: Assuming that people have full clairvoyance of an event is a very very bad way to look at things. The nature of the game is shrouded in misunderstandings and actions can be taken during these misunderstandings.
[This part lost again until I can find logs] Magikarp basically said that he reacted as though I had released necrotising fasciitis, because he simply did not know.

My complaint here is that I don't think it's enough to merely say "he was uncertain", because you shouldn't take an action that ends someone else's round on flimsy reasoning. Here Sloan had to assume a virus that the whole crew had that wasn't actually hurting him at all was "like necrotising fasciitis", and kill me *twice* on that context - despite no-one saying over radio the disease was bad, or any other evidence.. While obviously in a game like this you can't assume that people have perfect information, acting on such meagre evidence as this is negligence on the part of the player, and should be punished or discouraged as such.

[4dplanner]

(I'll update this post with exact logs when I can get them)

[Lazengann]

I personally hate when virologists spam up my chat with constant sneezing and itching and such so it's fine by me.

More related to your anecdote, anything other than sneezing is going to make people think it's a harmful virus. And if a harmful virus is released, it's better to dunk the virologist sooner rather than later.

[BeeSting12]

Edward Sloan here.
>skin flaking
>feeling hot
>hair falling out
>sneezing
I'm pretty sure you had more negative symptoms than positive symptoms in there bud. So yes I killed you for releasing a shit virus. And Ambassador Magikarp did ask me about me lynching you, I responded and told him why. He told me I wasn't in trouble and that was that. Maybe next time don't release bad viruses?

[4dplanner]

Those aren't really negative symptoms, though, as they have no in-game disadvantages.

[4dplanner]

And Magikarp telling you you weren't in trouble is the reason for creating this thread.

[D&B]

If your virus has less inherent good benefits and it's outnumbered by buffers that cause chat spam and lost of cosmetics you're more likely than not going to get lynched by the crew.

How many good benefits did your virus have? How easy was it to cure? If you release a hard to cure, barely good virus, then yeah bet your ass you're going to toolbox town.

[Owegno]

If this is the virus I am thinking of it required orange juice to cure. Also sneezing makes you drop small items you are holding which is detrimental outside of chat spam and cosmetics.

[D&B]

Hair falling out though, you can bet players with snowflake characters would be pissed.

[BeeSting12]

Sloan is the specialest snowflake ever and I was very angered to see him look like a cancer patient. And there's this thing called ROLEPLAY where you would get somewhat pissed off at the virologist who is causing you to lose all your hair, nose running like a faucet, and skin flaking everywhere + a fever. At that point I'd literally kill the person who gave it to me if it was real life. The cure was table salt so it wasn't such a bad cure, it was the fact that he gave the whole crew an annoying virus with more negative than positive symptoms that triggered me to kill him. And Owegno, I'm pretty sure that's coughing.

[Owegno]

And Owegno, I'm pretty sure that's coughing.

I could of sworn someone told me it was sneezing, and I just checked the code and you are right, whoops.

[4dplanner]

The virus in question did not have coughing - and in what way is "I got a disease so I'm going to wordlessly kill this man without explaining myself or giving him a chance to do so" good roleplay?

[4dplanner]

In addition, in real life you would be a total psychopath if you killed someone for making you bald and snotty, jesus christ there is such a thing as proportionate response

[4dplanner]

Also, the cure was table salt

[BeeSting12]

In addition, in real life you would be a total psychopath if you killed someone for making you bald and snotty, jesus christ there is such a thing as proportionate response

Don't forget the fever and skin flaking off.

Also, the cure was table salt

I mentioned that.

The virus in question did not have coughing - and in what way is "I got a disease so I'm going to wordlessly kill this man without explaining myself or giving him a chance to do so" good roleplay?

In what way is releasing a shit virus and calling it positive when it has more negative symptoms than positive good roleplay?

[4dplanner]

I'm not the one claiming extreme roleplay here, so that comeback doesn't really work

[Lazengann]

It sounds as beneficial as the Chaplain smacking everyone with his Bible

[4dplanner]

My basic point here is that while you're saying "Negative symptoms", words popping up on your screen is not enough justification to kill someone

[4dplanner]

Except the bible gives brain damage, which is an actual disadvantage, and most people would warn the chaplain first even in that case and not kill him without saying a single word to him

[Lazengann]

Well now you know better and knowing is half the battle.

[BeeSting12]

I'm not the one claiming extreme roleplay here, so that comeback doesn't really work

It is good roleplay because ICly, I wouldn't know these symptoms aren't gonna kill me. All I know is that I've got a negative virus and that you caused it. It's like my policy with chemists shooting syringe guns at me- I don't know what's in it, so I'm critting you and calling out on comms.

[Karp]

Roleplay argument's pretty poor for both sides but being frank this is a matter of you releasing a virus that was incredibly annoying with multiple negative symptoms and no visible positives at a minimum and awfully lethal at worst that nobody could've known the details about without breaking into your workplace or risking trusting you which could be questionable based on the previous symptoms you added.I said that they acted on what they knew at that point in time because they had no better idea of what was going on past "Awful Virus". But who knows, maybe I'm too light on escalation.

[PKPenguin321]

I'd hope BeeSting12 would have enough experience to know that those symptoms aren't inherently harmful after 3000 connections. They're still annoying for sure, and are very threatening, so killing was justified, even maaaaaaaybe incineration. The second kill just to ensure the viro was perma dead, though? At that point BeeSting12 should have realized the disease either wasn't lethal or very easily cured and gotten rid of it (the cloning cycle alone should have given enough time). I'd have held him up there. Misunderstandings happen and the reasoning behind you ruling it an IC issue was good (I want to stress this! It was a good ruling with a good reason, you shouldn't avoid using it where it's applicable just because of this), but there comes a point when you're just being downright oblivious for no good reason and taking it out on others a bit too indiscriminately. You have 3k+ connections, I can't imagine not knowing better at this point, especially when given so much time to figure it out.

A slap on the wrist for BeeSting12 in some way would have been good at some point after the second kill if it really went down as the OP is telling it. Other headmins should feel free to jump in here and agree/disagree. I won't put this on a "permanent record" or any kind of meme since Karp is still a trialadmin and is still learning, but this probably could have been handled a smidge differently.

[Screemonster]

tbh though releasing a virus that seems inherently designed to cause chatspam is a pretty shitty thing to do, if I followed someone around honking them constantly and filling their textbox with shit I'd expect to get dunked too.

[BeeSting12]

>3000 connections
I play wayyyyyyy too much.
And I don't regret killing him twice at all. I got the disease cured relatively fast but that's beside the point. He shouldn't have made an annoying disease and then released it if he didn't want to get lynched. tbh I can see why Kor is against ban requests, arguing about why you took someone out of the round for 20-30 minutes is dumb. The story did go down about as Richard's telling it: I killed him for the shit virus, got it cured, a few minutes later someone cloned him, he immediately shouted on comms that I'm a traitor so I went to cloning, shot him dead, and hid him. I don't know much about virology really. Never took time to see what the symptoms do- I know sneezing is harmless, a bit spammy tho, ditto to shivering. Having had the fever symptom before and then catching on fire later, I assumed it was some spontaneous combustion symptom, along with skin flaking (thought it caused brute damage to you). Obviously the hair loss symptom is pretty shit too. It also spread on contact after health analyzing it which never looks good combined with negative symptoms. By the time I had killed you for it the second time, I figured it wasn't as bad as I thought it was, but I'm still not letting you get away with releasing a shitty virus.

tbh though releasing a virus that seems inherently designed to cause chatspam is a pretty shitty thing to do, if I followed someone around honking them constantly and filling their textbox with shit I'd expect to get dunked too.

This was also part of my mindset for this. I personally wouldn't ahelp if I got killed after doing this but maybe I'm different.

[onleavedontatme]

tbh I can see why Kor is against ban requests, arguing about why you took someone out of the round for 20-30 minutes is dumb.

At last you truely see.

[Cobby]

Does Fever not give you small burn damage? With all those buffs + sneezing if I began losing health you can bet your rear I'd be in the same spot as Beesting.

That's looking past the big obvious problem which is making a meme disease with a lot of buffs then ahelping because someone thought [reasonably] they were dying because of it. That comes off as banbaiting alone.

[XDTM]

Guys

Seriously

Healing symptoms don't scale off stats anymore, stop adding fever and shivering (which are, while spammy, harmless)

[BeeSting12]

Does Fever not give you small burn damage? With all those buffs + sneezing if I began losing health you can bet your rear I'd be in the same spot as Beesting.

That's looking past the big obvious problem which is making a meme disease with a lot of buffs then ahelping because someone thought [reasonably] they were dying because of it. That comes off as banbaiting alone.

Yeah I thought that the "feel hot" messages will evolve into burn damage and the "skin flaky/itchy" messages caused brute. Didn't check, I saw the virologist and just killed him then and there. After I cured it I didn't pay much more thought to the issue till he got cloned and shouted that I was a traitor, after which I shot him again for making the shit virus.

[XDTM]

For future reference, fever is specifically coded to never heat you over the damage threshold, and itching is just chat messages. Fever might actually help you survive longer in space, but it's an edge case i suppose.

[BeeSting12]

Both are still spammy and why should I not kill the guy who spams up my chat. If someone starts spamming while I arrest them, I kill them. This is the same concept.

[XDTM]

It was in good faith as they buff virus stats, which used to improve the amount of healing the virus did. It's no longer the case, but it's not like he added them because he wanted to spam people. I'd have given the benefit of doubt and asked to cure/vaccine the virus and make another one without those symptoms.

[Cobby]

For future reference, fever is specifically coded to never heat you over the damage threshold, and itching is just chat messages. Fever might actually help you survive longer in space, but it's an edge case i suppose.

Good to know.

It was in good faith as they buff virus stats, which used to improve the amount of healing the virus did. It's no longer the case, but it's not like he added them because he wanted to spam people. I'd have given the benefit of doubt and asked to cure/vaccine the virus and make another one without those symptoms.

So the issue is obvious miscommunication, which is an IC issue, meaning karp did nothing wrong. What you would have done is nice but I still don't think beesting was in the wrong for killing the viro using the information he had.

The lesson of the thread: Stop adding sneezing to your viruses and inject it to people ONLY AFTER EXPLAINING WHAT IT DOES so you don't get lynched.

[oranges]

Both are still spammy and why should I not kill the guy who spams up my chat. If someone starts spamming while I arrest them, I kill them. This is the same concept.

There's a difference between player initiated spam and spam we've coded in to features.

I would expect you to catch a ban if you keep it up.

[WarbossLincoln]

In addition, in real life you would be a total psychopath if you killed someone for making you bald and snotty, jesus christ there is such a thing as proportionate response

intentionally spreading a biohazard is a force able felony. If someone released a disease into a populated area that caused all of those symptoms 10 minutes after contraction it's every citizen's duty in that are to shoot and kill them. If someone IRL ran up to me and splashed something in my face from a beaker with a biohazard symbol on it then I'm drawing on them.

[Qbopper]

If someone IRL ran up to me and splashed something in my face from a beaker with a biohazard symbol on it then I'm drawing on them.

can we please not resort to the "if this was real life" meme argument

even if we assume that literally everyone on earth feels the same way as you (they don't): this isn't real life, death in this context means you get to sit out for, at most, an hour or two (unless it's a lowpop murderboner but whatever) - when you resort to the "if you did X irl I would Y" argument you're not contributing to the discussion at all, because this isn't real life, and acting as if a real life response and a SS13 response should be equivalent is ridiculous

if someone comes and makes you drop something you're holding irl do you execute them on the spot?

[Nilons]

a few minutes later someone cloned him, he immediately shouted on comms that I'm a traitor so I went to cloning, shot him dead, and hid him.

So you talked to an admin about this, got his ruling, then decided to yell over comms and try to get revenge for something he deemed as reasonable. He told you that it would have been reasonable and you jumped to not only get back at Sloan but to assume he must be a traitor and that there's no way your shitty virus could have provoked this. Escalation should end the minute an admin gets involved.

Edit: This is assuming he DID yell over comms that sloan was a traitor for killing him, also using this quote because the other guy never said he yelled over comms

[BeeSting12]

a few minutes later someone cloned him, he immediately shouted on comms that I'm a traitor so I went to cloning, shot him dead, and hid him.

So you talked to an admin about this, got his ruling, then decided to yell over comms and try to get revenge for something he deemed as reasonable. He told you that it would have been reasonable and you jumped to not only get back at Sloan but to assume he must be a traitor and that there's no way your shitty virus could have provoked this. Escalation should end the minute an admin gets involved.

Edit: This is assuming he DID yell over comms that sloan was a traitor for killing him

nigger i am sloan

[Wyzack]

This really comes down to how we want to view "nonharmful" viruses in the context of this game. Sure the disease does not cause your health numbers to decrease, but it is a pretty hefty leap of logic to say that a disease that causes severe flu-like symptoms as well as skin and hair loss is not harmful. From a more practical standpoint the chatspam alone is massively irksome.

[Nilons]

a few minutes later someone cloned him, he immediately shouted on comms that I'm a traitor so I went to cloning, shot him dead, and hid him.

So you talked to an admin about this, got his ruling, then decided to yell over comms and try to get revenge for something he deemed as reasonable. He told you that it would have been reasonable and you jumped to not only get back at Sloan but to assume he must be a traitor and that there's no way your shitty virus could have provoked this. Escalation should end the minute an admin gets involved.

Edit: This is assuming he DID yell over comms that sloan was a traitor for killing him

nigger i am sloan

Ye, I was using your quote because he never said that he shouted over comms that you're a traitor. According to him he was tracked down without provocation. I figured it might be unclear.

[BeeSting12]

oh okay. yeah he did in fact say I am a traitor on comms and he was gibbering so I assumed he got cloned and rekilled him

[4dplanner]

I've got to be honest, I had forgotten about this thread by now - but I did *not* say you were a traitor over comms. I said that you killed me, and I wanted sec to arrest you, which I thought was a perfectly valid IC response to what I had been told was an IC issue; this is, however, different to trying to convince people you were an antag to get revenge.

[4dplanner]

However, leaving that detail out in the salt-filled rage gave a false impression nonetheless, and I'm sorry.

[BeeSting12]

I've got to be honest, I had forgotten about this thread by now - but I did *not* say you were a traitor over comms. I said that you killed me, and I wanted sec to arrest you, which I thought was a perfectly valid IC response to what I had been told was an IC issue; this is, however, different to trying to convince people you were an antag to get revenge.

I'll pull logs in a few minutes

[Haevacht]

Jesus christ you nerds stop the pissing contest for a minute and wait for someone important to give a ruling.

[BeeSting12]

actually we're waiting for someone smart to lock the thread since someone important already said karp dindu nuffin

[BeeSting12]

apparently he didn't call me a traitor which is what i remember but he did say this:
[01:19:46]SAY: Unknown/4DPlanner : SEC
[01:19:50]SAY: Unknown/4DPlanner : I AM DEAF
[01:19:54]SAY: Unknown/4DPlanner : BUT ARREST EDWARD SLOAN
[01:19:57]SAY: Unknown/4DPlanner : HE KILLED ME
I heard him say it on common. I must've misremembered it as saying I was a traitor, my bad.

[4dplanner]

Yeah, the actual responses happened WAY back